Please read - Youtube vid comments

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Thank you but no, because IMO such succinctness can result in generalised or (as in this case) polarised statements which I think make things worse in these debates. Speed reading or even ignoring my posts might help. Perhaps you could try that sometime

I try to ignore as much as I can, but you did refer to my post specifically and mentioned me by name - so I had no choice but to respond.

I thought my generalisation ('polarised' is kind of harsh ... ) was on the whole fairly accurate.

However you've every right to disagree, and of course I wouldn't presume to include your good self in any generalisation, as experience has taught me otherwise ...

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by R.

We cool?

We cool.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

If all you are presented with is a clip, and you want to discuss that clip, then you have to take THAT CLIP for what it is. If someone posts a clip for discussion, then it makes sense to discuss what's there, rather than what isn't. I don't think that people are looking to pull a performance to pieces and analyze every little part of every note, they're just commenting on whether, on the whole, it was 'on' or not. And for the majority of clips on youtube, you CAN tell whether or not a performance is vocally 'on'. This applies to all bands, not just Meat Loaf.

As for the other issue: I think that some users are feeling oppressed because it's almost like they're being 'banned' by others from giving their own opinions on a performance or a clip, even if those opinions are respectful (which they should all be, and for the most part, are). It feels sometimes like it's almost a case of 'agree with this or get ten thousand posts telling you you're wrong, calling you ridiculous, and hitting the dislike button on your posts fifty times'. Regardless of how you phrase it, it could be seen as almost passive-aggressive. I get that this is a fan page, upsetting other people is the last thing I want to do - like most of the others here, but what kind of a discussion forum would it be if people were prohibited from giving their own opinions?

As for not reading the entire thread... I have, and it's the same argument from the first few pages, going on and on again.

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I wanted to comment on this post, as well as to agree with what Mr. Happy has said. I've listened to bootlegs of varying levels of quality ranging from cell phone videos to audio recordings which sound pretty much as good as official releases, and I absolutely agree that a bad quality recording won't turn a good performance into a bad one and vice versa. I have so-so quality recordings that I listen to for enjoyment, because it's all we have, and I like the performance so much.

That said, I think TheDoode's suggestion is a good one to evaluate each clip for what it IS, as opposed to what it isn't, and to take each with a grain of salt, so to speak.

Originally Posted by CarylB

Mouse, who suggested and argued his case, will be critical of performances, and has not suggested at any time that he thinks people should not criticise, providing it is done with some respect for Meat's feelings .. which has been the position of Rainer and his team continually, because the performer in question is entitled to that.

You're right Caryl, but in most cases, it's not the mods that are the issue, it's other posters, as mentioned in TheDoode's post which I quoted above.

Originally Posted by Sarge

I don't "keep bringing the topic up". I replied to a post by AndrewG. Relax!

Apparently, some people feel compelled to hit the "dislike" button even when the post is clearly a reply to a specific person who is not his or herself.

[renegadeangel]

Wow. Some people have way too much time on their hands.
I have seen Meat perform live so many times I've lost count. Has every song he performed been dead on?
Yes. He perform a song in a way that few can. I saw him last year again and its always the same. He blows me away with what he brings to his performance.
I don't offer any opinions on You Tube performances cause to be honest, it's a brief snapshot of an event. I want the whole event before I say anything.
People who wish to be critical or opinionated, well thats their lookout.
I buy every album he makes
I go see him live every chance I get.
I am never disappointed cause what I see is someone who his his heart and soul to the performance.
I don't believe for a second that I have the right, even though I paid for the privilege, to criticize anything he does.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

If all you are presented with is a clip, and you want to discuss that clip, then you have to take THAT CLIP for what it is. If someone posts a clip for discussion, then it makes sense to discuss what's there, rather than what isn't. I don't think that people are looking to pull a performance to pieces and analyze every little part of every note, they're just commenting on whether, on the whole, it was 'on' or not. And for the majority of clips on youtube, you CAN tell whether or not a performance is vocally 'on'. This applies to all bands, not just Meat Loaf.

As for the other issue: I think that some users are feeling oppressed because it's almost like they're being 'banned' by others from giving their own opinions on a performance or a clip, even if those opinions are respectful (which they should all be, and for the most part, are). It feels sometimes like it's almost a case of 'agree with this or get ten thousand posts telling you you're wrong, calling you ridiculous, and hitting the dislike button on your posts fifty times'. Regardless of how you phrase it, it could be seen as almost passive-aggressive. I get that this is a fan page, upsetting other people is the last thing I want to do - like most of the others here, but what kind of a discussion forum would it be if people were prohibited from giving their own opinions?

As for not reading the entire thread... I have, and it's the same argument from the first few pages, going on and on again.

I also want to respond to this. The Doode brings a valid point to the table, and If I were standing in the shoes of someone who had respectfully "disliked" Meat's vocals, I would feel opressed for my opinion.

And I have been before. Lets not forget the countless times I've said "This isn't his best" or "hopefully he's just warming up for the next few shows" etc type comments. And I've been told to opress my opinion just to make a few people happy, or less upset.

Having said that, it is very important to understand that not all of us are doing what I just said. I certainly don't. I respect someone who dislikes something and states their opinion. Mostly because I do it all the frieking time. I can be a critic as well as praise something as awesome. But there is a difference between critiquing something, and bashing Meat. And the comments I responded to on here were clearly bashing Meat. If they were not meant to be insults, then they should be worded as such.

People, spend a little more time on your wording if your consistently getting shot down by others for insulting Meat. Rather than blaming those who are getting upset and feel negativity from your posts, put a little bit of effort in by making sure your post is not offensive. I do it all the time. Its that type of respect for your fellow members that is lacking on these forums.

[clarification] - For those who I know will jump on this, yes, the odd time when someone has highly provoked me, I have lost my patience on here. I've had people take digs at me, I am certain, just to get an angry reaction. I do not claim to have anywhere near perfect communication, or control of my temper when it comes to people who I can tell are purposefully trying to be hurtful. But what I do notice is a lack of respect overall. From the "super nice people", its lack of understanding that someone can dislike a performance. From the "super cynical people", its lack of respect for those who really like something. And then theres the whole spectrum in between and the bass ackwards ones like me who flip depending on the performance and my mood :P So as a group of fans, friends, and acquaintences, what I think we all need, perhaps myself included, is to have more respect for fellow members.

Having said that, this does not include or excuse deliberate digs at Meat Loaf. There is a difference between saying "he doesn't sound like he did 20 years ago" and saying "he sounds worse than the hang cool tour". The latter is bound to be highly upsetting to those who attended the hang cool tour, and sounds like this tour is bound to be worse than the hang cool tour. Yes, it is an opinion, but it drags down the mood of the people excited for the current tour. Plus, that comment was, I believe directed at a terrible quality cell phone video, which misses all the small details of Meat's voice.

It is my opinion, and I believe that of several others, that deliberate insults thrown at Meat on his own fan club are why people are upset, not normal discussion and opinion - good or bad.

[LisaT]

Originally Posted by renegadeangel

Wow. Some people have way too much time on their hands.
I have seen Meat perform live so many times I've lost count. Has every song he performed been dead on?
Yes. He perform a song in a way that few can. I saw him last year again and its always the same. He blows me away with what he brings to his performance.
I don't offer any opinions on You Tube performances cause to be honest, it's a brief snapshot of an event. I want the whole event before I say anything.
People who wish to be critical or opinionated, well thats their lookout.
I buy every album he makes
I go see him live every chance I get.
I am never disappointed cause what I see is someone who his his heart and soul to the performance.
I don't believe for a second that I have the right, even though I paid for the privilege, to criticize anything he does.

I have to say that I feel exactly the same. I go to see Meat's shows because I love the passion and the humour that he brings to his performances. I go to be entertained, and entertained I most certainly am - every time. I have NEVER come away from a show disappointed - EVER - even when Meat has gone off key or fluffed a line. It doesn't matter to me if his vocals aren't 'perfect' 100% of the time, as long as he sounds good for the most part - which, from my experience, he does.

[LuuuuvMeat]

Originally Posted by LisaT

I have to say that I feel exactly the same. I go to see Meat's shows because I love the passion and the humour that he brings to his performances. I go to be entertained, and entertained I most certainly am - every time. I have NEVER come away from a show disappointed - EVER - even when Meat has gone off key or fluffed a line. It doesn't matter to me if his vocals aren't 'perfect' 100% of the time, as long as he sounds good for the most part - which, from my experience, he does.

I agree. Well said.

[AndrewG]

On the note of coming away from a Meat Loaf show and not being disappointed. Well I have been left disappointed once, but 1 out of 20 or so really ain't that bad at all I think. When he's on the money, he's on the money. Indeed I guess a YouTube vid cannot possibly contain the atmosphere and excitement of being there. Special shows like RAH spring to mind regarding that. Perhaps a pro shot of that would have been able to capture some of the aura, I'm not sure. It's not all just about the voice. The connection between the song, the band, the audience and you as a person is something that cannot all be captured on a camera.
For people not being able to attend the gig I still think a YouTube vid is better than nothing, but perhaps it is easy for me to appreciate what is really happening when I watch a vid as I kind of subconsciously can understand the quality difference that is there. That is not just for Meat Loaf, but bootleg vids/audios from all artists. My ears can kind of fill the gaps if you get what I mean (lack of bass, richness and power usually).

...I've waffled enough...

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

On the note of coming away from a Meat Loaf show and not being disappointed. Well I have been left disappointed once, but 1 out of 20 or so really ain't that bad at all I think. When he's on the money, he's on the money. Indeed I guess a YouTube vid cannot possibly contain the atmosphere and excitement of being there. Special shows like RAH spring to mind regarding that. Perhaps a pro shot of that would have been able to capture some of the aura, I'm not sure. It's not all just about the voice. The connection between the song, the band, the audience and you as a person is something that cannot all be captured on a camera.
For people not being able to attend the gig I still think a YouTube vid is better than nothing, but perhaps it is easy for me to appreciate what is really happening when I watch a vid as I kind of subconsciously can understand the quality difference that is there. That is not just for Meat Loaf, but bootleg vids/audios from all artists. My ears can kind of fill the gaps if you get what I mean (lack of bass, richness and power usually).

...I've waffled enough...

I actually give you alot of credit for your "waffling". IT shows that you have been paying attention & put some thought into what others have said. You have considered that there are a few different points of view on the issue and what someone else's thought process might be.
KUdos to you
I need a LOVE button for your post here

[lyn]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

I read the first half of the first page, then stopped caring because it was dissolving into the standard "what makes a real fan?" argument. So if I'm derailing the argument, I'm sorry.



THIS is exactly true. Saying that you can't judge a performance from a YouTube video is complete crap. A dodgy camera can't mask the fact that a singer may or may not be singing out of tune. It's an all or nothing thing, not "well, it sounds bad...but maybe it's the video!" No, it's not the video. It's the performance, and if you think otherwise than you're far more optimistic than you have the right to be. Will the sound be distorted? Probably. What WON'T happen is that it won't seem as if the singer is singing out of tune if they're not. This is really common sense.

Just as an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFR-JEe7qyE

The quality of this audio is absolute crap. It's a dodgy audience recording from 1987. And yet you can still hear that Meat sounds ~~~~ing brilliant, and so does the band. You can very easily make a judgement from this...and the only reason you people are up in arms about the other videos which were posted recently (which were of a similar quality) is because the person dared to make a post that wasn't overly positive. Can't you see how ridiculous that is? Having some sort of convoluted rule that bans YouTube from here is just stupid, because it's not the videos that are the problem. It's the people.

Accept that some people may not be 100% positive. As long as they're respectful, they have every right to mention to it.

ALSO, one more example. Go to the Everything is Permitted rating thread in the TTBH forum (it's on the front page of it), and read the top two comments, particularly the second one. That's the perfect template for how you should react to a negative post.

I totally disagree with that, about the phone quality! I took footage of Meat when I had seen him in the Hunter Valley, and I'm here to tell you that the video footage wasn't as good as the the real thing. The footage on my camera didn't sound as good, and wasn't what the concert sounded like. Meat sounded good, but the poor quality of the video camera on my phone was to blame for that. That is why myself, and so many here are up in arms about allowing YT footage to be posted. Poor quality footage only attracts negative comments, that later on Meat will read. We don't want Meat to read that and base how good or bad his performance is based on amature footage. Neither do we want new members here who haven't seen Meat live yet, to get the wrong impression from a poor quality clip off a phone.

[Wario]

Im gonna be honest about posting 1988 material in conjunction with current performance videos.....

Its unfair to Compare 64 year old meat with 44 year old meat. One of our biggest debates here is always whats the better meat loaf voice? 1987-1993 or the current one. Ill also like to note meat isnt a tenor anymore (hes more of a baritone now), so the comparisons are unjust.

1987 meat is technically and factually better sounding then 2012 Meat. What 1987 meat lacks is a kickass band line up and stage presence. Very rarely does meat stay stationary at a micstand now. In 1987 or 1988 or 1989 or 1990 or 1991 for example meat would very rarely stray away from that micstand (in 1993 is when he really started to go full out). What I love about current meat is the performances he gives. his voice is just an added cherry on top of a huge sunday

Posting a 1988 video in 1 2012 thread is like bringing a watermellon to a pumpkin contest. Theres 2012 Epic Meat Loaf band and theres 1988 Epic Meat Loaf voice. To me its pretty much inarguable 1987-1993 were meats best years vocally (in fact its kinda a fact). 2010- currently are meat's best as a performer and stage man. Thats almost inarguable. Posting a 1988 video is like saying "why cant meat sing like jesus anymore?"

I loathe it when people criticize his voice and then saying his performance is bad. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS ENTIRELY.

My answer: "Meat cant sing like 1988 jesus anymore, but by god he performs better today then 8 billion buddahs"

Thats my view. Keep the 1987-1993 videos when we are discussing the goldne age.

NEVER confuse performance with singing. There are a shit tone of people who can sing better then Meat live nowadays. Yet There are only a handful who can match him as a performer and actor. And thats what he is first, an ACTOR. and thats how i judge him by now.

thats just my view on that matter

BASICALLY This is how the two eras stack up for me:

1988 - 1993 Meat Voice: 10/10
current meat voice: 6/10

1988 - 1993 Meat Performance: 8/10
current meat performance: 10/10

[lyn]

Originally Posted by LuuuuvMeat

That is a great way of thinking and usage of the fuction but IMO it's clear others have not done that {a judgment.}

As for choosing not to be anatagonised I say kudos to you but unfortuntealy it still doesn't lessen the intention.

Maybe it does get used too much, but I like Caryl, and probably other members here see it as an agree and disagree button that can be used simply as you don't have any other comment to add. I use it for that. Not for the novelty of it or to show disrespect for others

[lyn]

Originally Posted by Sarge

That idea occurred to me, too, but actually I couldn't care less. Who can take such "dislikes" seriously? I had a look at the "Top 10 Billy Joel Songs" thread and guess what? One person "disliked" every post on it (except for one that was probably overlooked). Laughable.

It depends on the topic don't forget!

[lyn]

Originally Posted by R.

Bottom line:

Post your Youtube vids, but don’t start bitching when they get horse kicked by a red pony. Post them on topic, that means no 20 year old footage in a thread dealing with a recent show, just deal with this particular show only. Comment on these vids as you like, but do so in a respectful manner. And keep these comments on topic, speculating about something else than the thread‘s topic may get your post removed. To make this perfectly clear, making conclusions about the quality or make of a soon to be released DVD in a concert review thread is definetly not on topic and it’s not an opinion either. Post your comment and be done with it. Don’t try to impose your opinion on fellow posters with repetitive similiar posts, that’s just rude and will most likely derail a thread. We will clean these threads as we see fit, should we have the impression that a thread has been derailed.

We cool?

Absolutely cool, and thank you for posting this. It might make things a lot easier for future threads :)

[lyn]

Originally Posted by renegadeangel

Wow. Some people have way too much time on their hands.
I have seen Meat perform live so many times I've lost count. Has every song he performed been dead on?
Yes. He perform a song in a way that few can. I saw him last year again and its always the same. He blows me away with what he brings to his performance.
I don't offer any opinions on You Tube performances cause to be honest, it's a brief snapshot of an event. I want the whole event before I say anything.
People who wish to be critical or opinionated, well thats their lookout.
I buy every album he makes
I go see him live every chance I get.
I am never disappointed cause what I see is someone who his his heart and soul to the performance.
I don't believe for a second that I have the right, even though I paid for the privilege, to criticize anything he does.

Well AMEN to that! :) I'm glad I'm not the only one with those opinions :) Although I've only seen him live once

[lyn]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I also want to respond to this. The Doode brings a valid point to the table, and If I were standing in the shoes of someone who had respectfully "disliked" Meat's vocals, I would feel opressed for my opinion.

And I have been before. Lets not forget the countless times I've said "This isn't his best" or "hopefully he's just warming up for the next few shows" etc type comments. And I've been told to opress my opinion just to make a few people happy, or less upset.

Having said that, it is very important to understand that not all of us are doing what I just said. I certainly don't. I respect someone who dislikes something and states their opinion. Mostly because I do it all the frieking time. I can be a critic as well as praise something as awesome. But there is a difference between critiquing something, and bashing Meat. And the comments I responded to on here were clearly bashing Meat. If they were not meant to be insults, then they should be worded as such.

People, spend a little more time on your wording if your consistently getting shot down by others for insulting Meat. Rather than blaming those who are getting upset and feel negativity from your posts, put a little bit of effort in by making sure your post is not offensive. I do it all the time. Its that type of respect for your fellow members that is lacking on these forums.

[clarification] - For those who I know will jump on this, yes, the odd time when someone has highly provoked me, I have lost my patience on here. I've had people take digs at me, I am certain, just to get an angry reaction. I do not claim to have anywhere near perfect communication, or control of my temper when it comes to people who I can tell are purposefully trying to be hurtful. But what I do notice is a lack of respect overall. From the "super nice people", its lack of understanding that someone can dislike a performance. From the "super cynical people", its lack of respect for those who really like something. And then theres the whole spectrum in between and the bass ackwards ones like me who flip depending on the performance and my mood :P So as a group of fans, friends, and acquaintences, what I think we all need, perhaps myself included, is to have more respect for fellow members.

Having said that, this does not include or excuse deliberate digs at Meat Loaf. There is a difference between saying "he doesn't sound like he did 20 years ago" and saying "he sounds worse than the hang cool tour". The latter is bound to be highly upsetting to those who attended the hang cool tour, and sounds like this tour is bound to be worse than the hang cool tour. Yes, it is an opinion, but it drags down the mood of the people excited for the current tour. Plus, that comment was, I believe directed at a terrible quality cell phone video, which misses all the small details of Meat's voice.

It is my opinion, and I believe that of several others, that deliberate insults thrown at Meat on his own fan club are why people are upset, not normal discussion and opinion - good or bad.

You've summed it up nicely mate :)

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by lyn

It depends on the topic don't forget!

Lyn, this is not directed at you, it just so happens yours is the post on the topic. I have seen the thread Sarge is referring to- I posted in it. Wario started the thread in the "Other Rock and Roll Heroes" section of the board, which is the appropriate place to put the thread. He listed his top 10 Billy Joel songs, and others chimed in and added theirs, we discussed a bit- nice thread. One individual took the time to "Dislike" every single post in the thread. Sarge said one was missed, could be.

Now, my point is, that maybe this person doesn't like Billy Joel, or isn't interested, in which case, IMO, the fair, respectful thing to do would be to simply not open the thread. The thread title was completely clear. She could have posted her own list, or, even post saying that she doesn't like Billy Joel and why- that is a discussion. Surely you can see why some people might be annoyed.

That thread was in no way disrespectful of Meat- I don't think he was even mentioned. Many music fan boards have sections for "Other Music", because often fans of one artist have other similar likes in common.

One board I belong to has a section for political discussions. It's not my thing, so I just don't look at it. If people don't like the "Other Music" forum, they don't need to read it. Better yet, if there is someone who annoys you so much that you dislike every single one of his or her posts, this board has an "ignore" feature- problem solved.

And, I realize it will only be a matter of time before this post is "disliked" as well. I can't let Wario beat me, can I?

[Tri.somethin]

This thread is still going on? O.o

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Tri.somethin

This thread is still going on? O.o

Indeed .. amazing. I haven't posted since Rainer gave his decision which seemed to me to provide an end to the discussion. His forum, his time and effort, his right to decide. But I did like and agree with Andrew's post which I've re-quoted below, so given all the furore that has been going on, I think I will now I'm quoting it again because it deserves to be read again .. imo

Originally Posted by AndrewG

On the note of coming away from a Meat Loaf show and not being disappointed. Well I have been left disappointed once, but 1 out of 20 or so really ain't that bad at all I think. When he's on the money, he's on the money. Indeed I guess a YouTube vid cannot possibly contain the atmosphere and excitement of being there. Special shows like RAH spring to mind regarding that. Perhaps a pro shot of that would have been able to capture some of the aura, I'm not sure. It's not all just about the voice. The connection between the song, the band, the audience and you as a person is something that cannot all be captured on a camera.
For people not being able to attend the gig I still think a YouTube vid is better than nothing, but perhaps it is easy for me to appreciate what is really happening when I watch a vid as I kind of subconsciously can understand the quality difference that is there. That is not just for Meat Loaf, but bootleg vids/audios from all artists. My ears can kind of fill the gaps if you get what I mean (lack of bass, richness and power usually).

I like and agree fully with this Andrew, and I think this is the nub of what some have been trying to say .. certainly it is for me. Not "waffle" at all but rather a very good explanation of why these clips can be misleading, and why in my view Meat doesn't appreciate criticism (even if it is perhaps meant to be helpful) being based on them.

Originally Posted by stretch37

.. this argument ... It shouldn't be airing in this thread

Agreed

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

In case you hadn't noticed Caryl specifically mentioned my name and quoted my post. She was equally dismissive about my post, I responded in kind.

Paul, I'd observe that your first comment back was in response to my saying of your post:
I don't believe to polarise people like this helps, nor is it really accurate ... phrases like "even remotely critical" just do not help imo.

I don't think that was dismissive in any way which should offend; I gave my opinion straight and not rudely, or sarcastically. I then replied to your following response to that in kind But you are right in saying

"Caryl's 'maturity and experience' means she doesn't need others to fight her corner"

I have been worse insulted by others

Caryl

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by Wario

As I see it there needs to be a leaderboard with the most amount of disliked posts by a user. Sarge, me, and Andrew would totally top it

I congratulate the three of you for all the effort you put in to be top of the pile.

[Wario]

Originally Posted by chairboys

I congratulate the three of you for all the effort you put in to be top of the pile.

It was being sarcastic. noting we were being aimed for no matter what we said.

Its done. lets move on

[GDW]

What if I dislike some parts of a post and like other parts of the post. Oh yeah! Don't reply.

[R.]

If I ever see a discussion turning into a flamefest like this again, everyone involved will enjoy at least a month-long vacation from this site. We have a private messaging facility, if you really need to have a go at each other, use it. Also, there’s an „Ignore List“; it’s a pretty self-explaining tool. I urge you to use this feature. Don’t make me force this on you.

For the Youtube vids and coments, please refer to my post quoted below. Thread cleaned and closed.

Originally Posted by R.

Post your Youtube vids, but don’t start bitching when they get horse kicked by a red pony. Post them on topic, that means no 20 year old footage in a thread dealing with a recent show, just deal with this particular show only. Comment on these vids as you like, but do so in a respectful manner. And keep these comments on topic, speculating about something else than the thread‘s topic may get your post removed. To make this perfectly clear, making conclusions about the quality or make of a soon to be released DVD in a concert review thread is definetly not on topic and it’s not an opinion either. Post your comment and be done with it. Don’t try to impose your opinion on fellow posters with repetitive similiar posts, that’s just rude and will most likely derail a thread. We will clean these threads as we see fit, should we have the impression that a thread has been derailed.