Please read - Youtube vid comments

[Sebastian.]

Originally Posted by LisaT

Actually, he's been back here a couple of times over the last week, but I fear that this thread may send him running again!

Indeed.

I would love to hear from him, and his thoughts on the show, such as those with the HCTB/GP shows, hopefully he'll see that he does have a lot of support from us.

[LucyK!]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Okay, I understand 100% where you are coming from...however, I also remember some comments (which were, IMO, honest and respectful) about a television appearance a little while ago that caused a big uproar around here- is a television appearance considered "official" and therefore "fair game"?

Or, let's say if someone actually attended a show and had something less than glowing to say? I'm going to be totally honest and say that I've not been totally honest about some of my opinions in that regard. And, I don't mean that in a "bad" way, before anyone thinks that, I just don't feel free to express my complete honest opinion.

And, if I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment, an official DVD is not always a 100% accurate depiction of a performance.

Completely agree Julie. The issues that have been raised today have come from people's comments about You Tube footage, but let's face it it's not the first time this issue has come up.

I fondly remember MLUKFC being a place of honest, respectful discussion, sadly it seems those days are long gone, and apparently a "negative post" is defined as anything not 100% positive.

As people are very quick to point out, Meat is human - he has good and bad days, good and bad moods and good and bad days at work just like the rest of us do, but heaven help anyone who comments on the bad days. It seems that the need to please Meat (knowing full well that he's reading the posts on here) over-rules common sense and honest discussion. Sorry guys but I don't buy into it, I'm not going to change my opinion or attack anyone else's opinion just to get in Meat's good books, no way.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Put it this way, so see what a painter is like, do you go to his studio or the bin round the back?

Do you know how many students of art history have to learn something about paintings and artists by more or less good photos / reproductions? They don't have direct access to every painting that is featured in their studies. You are obviously underestimating people's ability to gain experience in evaluating, interpreting and judging things.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

This thread seems to suggest that i'm trying to make mlukfc into a 100% palace of perfect positivity.

No, but you're applying double standards and have introduced one of the most contradictory, illogical and discriminatory rule this place has ever seen.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

But I do think that Meat deserves to be condemned by something better than a camera phone clip.

No one has "condemned" Meat. A single member of this forum stated his opinion on a performance he had seen in a video. It just differed from that of other users, he did not judge Meat Loaf's entire work by it or something like that. Considering that the majority of the members who participated in the Austin thread LIKE the videos / Meat's performance, I don't understand why the hell you consider these videos or discussions about them such a threat.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

As a side note, I think it's strange that I feel I need to justify my thoughts by mentioning i'm not 100% in love with everything Meat has ever done.
That's sort of weird on a fan club

You take the liberty to criticize Meat Loaf yourself but try to bar others from saying something "negative" because you are allegedly that concerned about his feelings. That is weird.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Okay, I understand 100% where you are coming from...however, I also remember some comments (which were, IMO, honest and respectful) about a television appearance a little while ago that caused a big uproar around here- is a television appearance considered "official" and therefore "fair game"?

Or, let's say if someone actually attended a show and had something less than glowing to say? I'm going to be totally honest and say that I've not been totally honest about some of my opinions in that regard. And, I don't mean that in a "bad" way, before anyone thinks that, I just don't feel free to express my complete honest opinion.

And, if I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment, an official DVD is not always a 100% accurate depiction of a performance.

Brilliant post. When a board has people feeling that they can not be completely honest in giving their own opinion, where does the problem lie? Obviously a lot of people feel that there is a problem somewhere.

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by Evil One

For arguments sake what if the clip was of excellent visual and audio quality, but Meat was poor?

... or for arguments sake what if the band and Patty were excellent, but Meat was poor ? Despite the often variable quality of the clip, hardly anyone ever says the band or Patty were poor ... because they hardly ever are ... just saying ...

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

Brilliant post. When a board has people feeling that they can not be completely honest in giving their own opinion, where does the problem lie? Obviously a lot of people feel that there is a problem somewhere.

I agree. I could post my opinion of the Austin show clips, but its just not worth the hassle ... let's just say today I've been listening to an audience recording of a show Meat did in Glasgow in 1983, which has poor audio quality, but his performance is just astounding - out of this world !

[Adje]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

If you do not like the footage, keep in mind it's quality, and that is unfair (in the most literal sense of the word) to negatively comment on Meat's performance based entirely on what you've seen on youtube.

This bothers me.

What if the band sounds good, Patti's vocals sound good but Meat sounds bad?

How unfair would it be to comment on that? Is it still the quality of the video causing this outcome?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

... or for arguments sake what if the band and Patty were excellent, but Meat was poor ? Despite the often variable quality of the clip, hardly anyone ever says the band or Patty were poor ... because they hardly ever are ... just saying ...

Paul beat me to that


Anyway, although, I'm certain the intentions behind the original post are good, this post puts 'honest opinion' on this board in perspective.

Either you suport honest opinion or you're against it. But don't ask people to go one way. That eliminates the value on any post

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Surely the point is, whatever your opinion is, try and post with some consideration and respect. I agree with the Flying Mouse - that doesn't sound like too much to ask!

"Some consideration and respect" is a totally subjective thing. If someone thinks Meat's voice isn't great it seems to me some people take that as disrespect and posting without consideration and straight away such people are branded as being wrong or listening with the wrong ears.

Tonight I saw a bit of Rihanna's tv performance at Hackney. I thought she sounded great, so naturally a lot of Rihanna fans would like to hear that. A few weeks ago I saw Paul McCartney at the Jubilee thing. I thought his vocals and performance were truly awful. So naturally a lot of Paul McCartney fans would hate my opinion. Simpels.

I think it is actually the taking opinions too personal that is the problem here, always has been.

[suzieq]

I would like to take the opportunity to applaud the Mod team for a written consideration of Meat's feelings. Especially since he has expressed his concerns of the You Tubes.

I don't think it has a lick to do about censorship....I think it has all to do with compassion. Something which is very nice to see. A much appreciated change.

[BostonAngel]

In my opinion, awesome job by the mods with this topic. I agree that it isn't about censorship, it is about respect and compassion for Meat as a man and as an artist. Well done!

[AndrewG]

The pattern of dislikes on theses posts above is just ridiculous and I feel it highlights my post perfectly. I feel that I cannot post an honest opinion on the Meat Loaf forum at all without upsetting some people. Some say post with respect? What do they mean exactly? Constantly sucking up to Meat or something else? Can someone please explain?

As Sarge said if I like a YouTube vid it is ok to say that Meat Loaf is awesome?
If I dislike a YouTube vid it is only the quality of the video I can dislike?

Actually I think the mods have done a poor job here. In my opinion it would have been better to have left the original negative comment in the Austin thread and perhaps clamping down on all the YouTube quality stuff which I do think is unrelated to Austin generally, instead of resorting to censorship and opening a can of worms between the positive vs negative YouTube opinion camps again.

Same shit, just a different day.

[LucyK!]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

The pattern of dislikes on theses posts above is just ridiculous and I feel it highlights my post perfectly. I feel that I cannot post an honest opinion on the Meat Loaf forum at all without upsetting some people. Some say post with respect? What do they mean exactly? Constantly sucking up to Meat or something else? Can someone please explain?

Exactly. It's not about opinions any more, it's about posting to keep Meat happy. You say something deemed Positive and you'll get the usual lot hitting the Like button. Say something deemed Negative and no matter how well you've made your point it's branded "disrespectful" because Meat might not like it.

This is no longer a place of honest discussion and debate, it's a place to stroke Meat's ego and create a world where everything he says and does is perfect...which he, like the rest of us, is not!

Do you guys not notice how many people don't bother with MLUKFC any more? People who, over the years, have dedicated so much time to writing reviews and articles and submitting photos - not just to the forums but to the printed RVMs we used to get - and they're no longer here. And it's not because they've given up on Meat, it's because they can't be bothered with the backlash when they post something honest and people dive down their throats for being "disrespectful".

Since 1998 this fanclub has been an enormous part of my life, and it genuinely upsets me to see what it's turned into.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by Lucy!

Exactly. It's not about opinions any more, it's about posting to keep Meat happy. You say something deemed Positive and you'll get the usual lot hitting the Like button. Say something deemed Negative and no matter how well you've made your point it's branded "disrespectful" because Meat might not like it.

This is no longer a place of honest discussion and debate, it's a place to stroke Meat's ego and create a world where everything he says and does is perfect...which he, like the rest of us, is not!

Do you guys not notice how many people don't bother with MLUKFC any more? People who, over the years, have dedicated so much time to writing reviews and articles and submitting photos - not just to the forums but to the printed RVMs we used to get - and they're no longer here. And it's not because they've given up on Meat, it's because they can't be bothered with the backlash when they post something honest and people dive down their throats for being "disrespectful".

Since 1998 this fanclub has been an enormous part of my life, and it genuinely upsets me to see what it's turned into.

......this threads quickly becoming the same shit....Yes I feel the need to support Meat given his recent (2007, 2008, etc) struggles and triumps and I think some on here perpetually stroke, while I like to stroke a little and critique a little, and then there are people who mostly like to critique.

We all need to coexist. Yet we seem to be reacting more and more strongly against each others opinions.

Accept there will be all of these groups together, try to have some understanding before "reacting" to some sort of "insult" you have felt even though it was likely NOT intended. (we are all here because we love Meat)

Thoughts?

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Surely the point is, whatever your opinion is, try and post with some consideration and respect. I agree with the Flying Mouse - that doesn't sound like too much to ask!

Exactly! That's the bottom line.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Lucy!

It's not about opinions any more, it's about posting to keep Meat happy. [...] This is no longer a place of honest discussion and debate, it's a place to stroke Meat's ego and create a world where everything he says and does is perfect...

Yes, and it makes spending time on this forum often an ordeal these days. I wonder why this is necessary. Why does a 60+ year old man, a "fighter" who has been in the music business for decades have to be "protected" from a fan's thoughts on something? It's naive to believe that you can, by the way. If you have confidence in yourself and your work, you shouldn't be bothered by the fact that you can't please everybody to the same degree. Why is it that hard to accept that not all people are alike? One of the things that attracted me to this forum once was the fact that this community consisted of lots of different people with different backgrounds, interests and opinions. Now we have attempts to create a "streamline" community full of "praise or shut up" fans.

Originally Posted by Lucy!

You say something deemed Positive and you'll get the usual lot hitting the Like button. Say something deemed Negative and no matter how well you've made your point it's branded "disrespectful" because Meat might not like it.

Some forum member had apprehended that the use of the "(dis)like" button might become "political" and he was right.

Originally Posted by Lucy!

Do you guys not notice how many people don't bother with MLUKFC any more? [...] they can't be bothered with the backlash when they post something honest and people dive down their throats for being "disrespectful". [...] Since 1998 this fanclub has been an enormous part of my life, and it genuinely upsets me to see what it's turned into.

You're right, unfortunately... There are numerous "old" fans who have left or rarely post these days. People who contributed a lot of interesting posts over the years. Just look at the state this forum is now. Only a handful of people participate in it actively and regularly (in spite of the fact that there's currently a tour) but only few of them bother to discuss Meat Loaf's work in detail. Those who do are often shouted down and ridiculed by alleged "true" fans.

Originally Posted by Lucy!

And it's not because they've given up on Meat

Some actions to "defend" Meat are prone to let exactly that happen. Even long-time, supportive fans, some of who spent a small fortune on concerts and products having "Meat Loaf" printed on it, have been put in the "hater" category and were attacked in a totally unacceptable way. You don't even have to say something "negative", all it takes to be declared an enemy is someone who thinks / claims that you did. Putting off the most loyal customers for selfish reasons - from a marketing perspective, I can only shake my head in disbelief.

This sums it up perfectly:

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I think it is actually the taking opinions too personal that is the problem here, always has been.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Originally Posted by AndrewG

A few weeks ago I saw Paul McCartney at the Jubilee thing. I thought his vocals and performance were truly awful. So naturally a lot of Paul McCartney fans would hate my opinion.

I don't, although I'm a McCartney fan.

[GDW]

I really dislike this whole like dislike thing. Please reply if you like or dislike.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

In my opinion, awesome job by the mods with this topic. I agree that it isn't about censorship, it is about respect and compassion for Meat as a man and as an artist. Well done!

Who is disrespecting Meat? How do you define disrespect? When a pre-emptive rule is made saying to comment on something if you enjoy it, but keep quiet if you don't how is that not bordering on censorship? Meat himself said in a recent interview he's a "straight-shooter". So am I. Things really became comical to me when it was said if your opinion was not positive to blame the clip. Problem is Patti sounds fantastic on those clips, not saying Meat sounds bad mind you, but should I only comment that Patti sounded great, which leaves an implication that Meat might not have?

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Yes, and it makes spending time on this forum often an ordeal these days. I wonder why this is necessary. Why does a 60+ year old man, a "fighter" who has been in the music business for decades have to be "protected" from a fan's thoughts on something? It's naive to believe that you can, by the way. If you have confidence in yourself and your work, you shouldn't be bothered by the fact that you can't please everybody to the same degree. Why is it that hard to accept that not all people are alike? One of the things that attracted me to this forum once was the fact that this community consisted of lots of different people with different backgrounds, interests and opinions. Now we have attempts to create a "streamline" community full of "praise or shut up" fans.

Some forum member had apprehended that the use of the "(dis)like" button might become "political" and he was right.

You're right, unfortunately... There are numerous "old" fans who have left or rarely post these days. People who contributed a lot of interesting posts over the years. Just look at the state this forum is now. Only a handful of people participate in it actively and regularly (in spite of the fact that there's currently a tour) but only few of them bother to discuss Meat Loaf's work in detail. Those who do are often shouted down and ridiculed by alleged "true" fans.

My problem with this, and I am not attacking you directly, I just want to make some points based on what you said.

The haters claim to be "attacked" by the "true" fans, and that they can't express their opinion. Well, first and foremost, you can look at the forum and see that they don't seem to have a real issue with expressing their opinion as they do it all the time, and I have no issue with that. But, going back to the start of this paragraph, this "attack" claim is quite hypocritical from these folks. When the "true" fans express their opinion they get lambasted for being God worshipping cretins with blinders on

Because of this, the forum is in disarray. And your right most veterans dont post here anymore and who can blame them with this crap.

Hell, even Meat himself won't post here anymore, and I am starting to see why.

As for the like/dislike thing, if you don't like it, just ignore it, it ain't that hard to do

Sent from my 4G LTE DROID RAZR using Forum Runner

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by GDW

I really dislike this whole like dislike thing. Please reply if you like or dislike.

I like it, if you dislike a post rather than posting a response sometimes you can just hit the button. If you like a post instead of posting CHSIB or cheers you can just hit the other button.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

The haters claim to be "attacked" by the "true" fans, and that they can't express their opinion.

Starting off calling people passionate about Meat Loaf "haters" is rather odd. The fact we are discussing here is that the "true" fans who have power made a rule that sought to suppress honest opinion, and went a step beyond to encourage you to comment if you thought something was great. You don't see the problem there?

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

Starting off calling people passionate about Meat Loaf "haters" is rather odd. The fact we are discussing here is that the "true" fans who have power made a rule that sought to suppress honest opinion, and went a step beyond to encourage you to comment if you thought something was great. You don't see the problem there?

Nice attempt at trying to twist my words there, but it wont fly. At no point did I say that the "true" fans are passionate about the haters. Way to take one sentence and attempt to go in a total different direction.

If anything its the opposite of you stated. Your last statement there is attacking the mods more than anything and Mouse who made this thread has shown in the past that he can be fair to both sides, but you can take that issue up with him.

But to directly answer your question, i don't see a problem with it because you can't properly judge from a YouTube video. The quality is crap and you weren't there. The whole thing has a totally different feel and sound at the show that can't be translated through a YouTube video.

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[CarylB]

Personally I have never referred to anyone or group as "haters" and I think the term "true fan" is also a nonsense and one I never use. I see critical fans, I see supportive fans, I see some who are both.

I have said many times, one can write negative feedback in ways which are dismissive or which take account of the feelings of the person being fed back on. I happen to agree that bootleg recordings are not a good basis on which to make judgements. Perhaps the best thing would be for this forum to not have them posted? They are bootlegs after all, and if people want to watch them they can go and find them on YT. Just a thought.

Otherwise it's the same circular discussion. However, I've never felt that freedom of speech is compromised, nor trampled on, by the basic premise that people have feelings, Meat has feelings, and that to be asked to consider them when writing on the internet is not censorship in my view. To me that's simple decency and humanity, plus a bit of respect (in this case for a man who in my view deserves it because his efforts and achievements have earned it .. again in my view). Not rainbow land or any of the other epithets people may apply to it .. just caring for another's feelings.

Caryl

[chairboys]

Are we not all fans? Thus, "true" fans.
Let's all play nicely together.


Written before seeing Caryl's post - yes "true fan" term is nonsense!

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

Nice attempt at trying to twist my words there, but it wont fly. At no point did I say that the "true" fans are passionate about the haters. Way to take one sentence and attempt to go in a total different direction.

If anything its the opposite of you stated. Your last statement there is attacking the mods more than anything and Mouse who made this thread has shown in the past that he can be fair to both sides, but you can take that issue up with him.

But to directly answer your question, i don't see a problem with it because you can't properly judge from a YouTube video. The quality is crap and you weren't there. The whole thing has a totally different feel and sound at the show that can't be translated through a YouTube video.

Sent from my 4G LTE DROID RAZR using Forum Runner

You twist what I said or you misunderstood but whatever. How do I attack the mods, they made the rule and I gave my thoughts on it. Simple as that. I stand by everything I said.

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by chairboys

Are we not all fans? Thus, "true" fans.
Let's all play nicely together.

Written before seeing Caryl's post - yes "true fan" term is nonsense!

Please take head of what both this person and Caryl said.

We are all here for the same reason, and that is Meat.

Let's all just be a little more considerate of each others feelings and make this place fun again

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