Interesting report on illegal downloads

[Adje]

@ PanicLord. First of I want to compliment you on the structured reply. Although I do not agree on all it was very well argumented :)

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Well yes. I suspect burglary and money laundering are too, but that doesn't make it any less illegal or harmful to the victims.

This is what the anti-piracy folks tell you. It's nonsense of course to compare this with burglary or money laundring. Especially in the example I posted.

Burglary you actually do harm people. In the case of -and I used the bluray example- it's the oposite. If I hadn't been able to download those titles I would never have bought the originals anyway. The thing is I would never have spent money on them, thus never watched them. If I download them now and watch them that has the same impact as not watching them (from the point of view of the copyright holders). Now I have bought quite a few titles after I saw the downloaded version. So basically this form of piracy eventually regenerates money for them.

Same with music. How many people attend concerts after they heard a downloaded song or album? Especially from new/unknown artists. Eventually they buy merchandise, cd's etc from that same artist.

Now I never claim it's legal but in all honesty it's not fair to claim that all downloaders harm an artist. When sometimes the oposite is true. And that's also what I meant with my latest statement that it's too easy to put the blame on all downloaders

Again refering to my post. The first part I tell I buy cd's unless it's a compilation album with that one missing song. Why would they do that? Sell a 15 to 20 Euro (Dutch prices) compilation album with all songs you -as a fan- already have just to get that one song. How many people would buy one song for 20Euro? It's almost theft. In fact it's legal theft and I actually appreciate it's illegal counterpart if a ddownload is possible.
According to the law this is very simple. You're either black or white. But when we use common sense then there actually is a large grey area (even if you can rightfully claim it's illegal according to the law). Then again, how many of you wait for a red light when there is no traffic?

Anyway that's my opinion in this matter :)

[Adje]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

It's a waste of MY time, which is what I wrote, whatever anyone else choses to do is up to them.

My fault, I should have read it better

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Oh and getting away with it certainly doesn't make something legal!

You're right, it doesn't. But people are more likely to do something illegal if they are unlikely to get caught, or if the consequences are not severe even if they do.

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Absolutely it isn't any different - it is still illegal. Hence Meat or Red Pony or whoever owns the copyright is able to get them removed should they choose to do so. Whether you sell it or not is irrelevant (regardless of whether it is for profit) to whether you legally own it in the first place.

Oh, I won't argue that it is illegal, whether or not you profit.

Originally Posted by Adje

Then again, how many of you wait for a red light when there is no traffic?

I do- we have a lot of red light cameras here, which means I am very likely to get a ticket, and they are nearly impossible to beat.

[robgomm]

I always wait at red light's, i've never gone through one.

[CarylB]

Like Andrew, I think illegal downloading shows people do not is respect basic morals, and just because it's almost impossible to police doesn't make it justifiable or right.

Hell in a handbasket really does to me describe the way the music busines has been careening over the past years, particularly the giant chunk controlled by people like Cowell, and the money shift Andrew described so well towards lazy 3rd party companies.

What continues to surprise me .. perhaps because I am of Meat's generation, is the incredible sense of "entitlement" people seem to hold these days. Just because a live performance hasn't been officially recorded and released gives me no belief I am entitled to grab it from an illegal source; there are many live shows I don't see .. but I make the effort to see what I can, delight in those and hold them in my memory .. just as I prefer to buy a quality physical single release and play it when I want, knowing I have contributed to the artist who makes their living through entertaining me with great music. And to suggest that all performance should be free is just a nonsense. Some make their living by entertaining us as paid professionals, and thank God they do. I am happy to have earned my crust in other ways and to invest it in those who are talented, creative, driven and energetic enough to light up my life with their endeavours.

I don't feel I have a "right" to obtain bootleg rcordings, any more than red lights "don't matter" if there's no traffic around. I obey traffic laws, I don't steal. The labourer is worthy of his hire, whether it be some basic essential or an artistic enrichment of my life. Simple as that to me. Ease of law-breaking doesn't make it somehow more OK.

Caryl

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Just because a live performance hasn't been officially recorded and released gives me no belief I am entitled to grab it from an illegal source... I don't feel I have a "right" to obtain bootleg rcordings

I'm pretty sure the Republic Of Loafdom used to have quite a few TV performances of Meat.

If it wasn't for bootlegs then I would never have heard the fantastic El Mocambo concert amongst other things.

[PanicLord]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

...People are more likely to do something illegal if they are unlikely to get caught, or if the consequences are not severe even if they do.

You're right of course.

But the weird thing about this comment and the thread in general is that very few people seem to have said it is wrong in principle to steal things, and have instead tried to provide justification for doing so.

Eg it's not my fault I stole it if they're so expensive to buy. Or, I had to steal it because the record company didn't make it officially available.

The whole world seems to be going to hell in a handbasket

[PanicLord]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Like Andrew, I think illegal downloading shows people do not is respect basic morals, and just because it's almost impossible to police doesn't make it justifiable or right.

Hell in a handbasket really does to me describe the way the music busines has been careening over the past years, particularly the giant chunk controlled by people like Cowell, and the money shift Andrew described so well towards lazy 3rd party companies.

What continues to surprise me .. perhaps because I am of Meat's generation, is the incredible sense of "entitlement" people seem to hold these days. Just because a live performance hasn't been officially recorded and released gives me no belief I am entitled to grab it from an illegal source; there are many live shows I don't see .. but I make the effort to see what I can, delight in those and hold them in my memory .. just as I prefer to buy a quality physical single release and play it when I want, knowing I have contributed to the artist who makes their living through entertaining me with great music. And to suggest that all performance should be free is just a nonsense. Some make their living by entertaining us as paid professionals, and thank God they do. I am happy to have earned my crust in other ways and to invest it in those who are talented, creative, driven and energetic enough to light up my life with their endeavours.

I don't feel I have a "right" to obtain bootleg rcordings, any more than red lights "don't matter" if there's no traffic around. I obey traffic laws, I don't steal. The labourer is worthy of his hire, whether it be some basic essential or an artistic enrichment of my life. Simple as that to me. Ease of law-breaking doesn't make it somehow more OK.

Caryl

I quite agree!

[PanicLord]

Originally Posted by Adje

@ PanicLord. First of I want to compliment you on the structured reply. Although I do not agree on all it was very well argumented :)

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Adje

This is what the anti-piracy folks tell you. It's nonsense of course to compare this with burglary or money laundring. Especially in the example I posted.

Burglary you actually do harm people. In the case of -and I used the bluray example- it's the oposite. If I hadn't been able to download those titles I would never have bought the originals anyway. The thing is I would never have spent money on them, thus never watched them. If I download them now and watch them that has the same impact as not watching them (from the point of view of the copyright holders). Now I have bought quite a few titles after I saw the downloaded version. So basically this form of piracy eventually regenerates money for them.

Same with music. How many people attend concerts after they heard a downloaded song or album? Especially from new/unknown artists. Eventually they buy merchandise, cd's etc from that same artist.

Now I never claim it's legal but in all honesty it's not fair to claim that all downloaders harm an artist. When sometimes the oposite is true. And that's also what I meant with my latest statement that it's too easy to put the blame on all downloaders

Again refering to my post. The first part I tell I buy cd's unless it's a compilation album with that one missing song. Why would they do that? Sell a 15 to 20 Euro (Dutch prices) compilation album with all songs you -as a fan- already have just to get that one song. How many people would buy one song for 20Euro? It's almost theft. In fact it's legal theft and I actually appreciate it's illegal counterpart if a ddownload is possible.
According to the law this is very simple. You're either black or white. But when we use common sense then there actually is a large grey area (even if you can rightfully claim it's illegal according to the law).
Anyway that's my opinion in this matter :)

I do agree as per my earlier post that there are ways artists benefit from this from some people. But consider the following 2 points:

* What proportion of people, having illegally downloaded eg a film or album, would then go and legally obtain the same or something else by the artist? My opinion is if you steal once you are more likely to steal a 2nd time. I think the majority is harmful.

* Regardless of potential future benefit, if an artist creates something and does not give anyone else permission to have it, then no one else should have it. The artist is the owner and creator and it is their property to do with as they please.

Originally Posted by Adje

Then again, how many of you wait for a red light when there is no traffic?

Me. Every time.

BTW, I'm not trying to claim that I never broke a law or claim some moral highground here, for example there may be times when I may have accidentally travelled a little bit faster than the law would allow. I also enjoy watching some of the fan taped videos on Youtube etc.

I'm just standing up for the right of someone who owns something not to have it taken without their permission - i.e. stolen.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Holy One

I'm pretty sure the Republic Of Loafdom used to have quite a few TV performances of Meat.

And we always stayed within the rules which were approved by Meat's official international fanclub .. ie short clips which do not breach copyright; we were always scrupulous about that. The only clips which were longer were a few rare, unreleased ones done with permission .. eg Star Spangled Banner. I did not post the clips, but my understanding was that Vicki was scrupulous in staying within copyright law. That was an agreement we stuck to.

The sites which I have been involved with to support the new album have also stayed strictly within copyright law. Mark has produced some wonderful stuff, all legal.

If others have taken our clips and joined them together (as has happened in the past) that was not our doing and we asked that people should not do that. If others have managed to get hold of material purchased for ROL and used it, that is outside my control.

So ... sorry if you thought you'd "proved" something .. you haven't. Like Meat, I yam what I yam .. and I stick by what I believe. I do not condone bootleg concert recordings, nor do I believe I have the right to have recordings of every Meat performance. I take photos at concerts, (except during the time when Meat withdrew his permission). I never record at concerts; it's proscribed in law and on the tickets.

If it wasn't for bootlegs then I would never have heard the fantastic El Mocambo concert amongst other things.

There are many things I haven't heard because I don't download or buy bootlegs. There are so many, many more wonderful performances which I have heard live or legally. I do not feel the need to "collect" or tick off everything Meat has ever done. That's me, and it's my right to express that view and choice.

Caryl

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by CarylB

And we always stayed within the rules which were approved by Meat's official international fanclub .. ie short clips which do not breach copyright; we were always scrupulous about that.

But did you (or your compatriots) then delete the full clips from your hard drives, or do you still have them? If you did, then fair play. If you didn't then it's a case of I've got something you haven't, and I'm only showing you a bit of it.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by CarylB

And we always stayed within the rules which were approved by Meat's official international fanclub

The problem with this (as well as the comments on this thread concerning artist who encourage illegal downloads of their material) is that is not up to the artist, or any fan club to give this permission.
Strange as it might seem, they do not have the right.
If they want to set up a site where tracks can be openly downloaded for free (as with the site created for HCTB) then all well and good, but an illegal act is an illegal act, no matter if you have the artist permission.

Think of it like this, could you murder someone at a concert and then say "no no no officer, you see, I had Meat's permission to do that, all is well my good man"
The population of this forum would plummet.
Half to the morgue, half to those nice people at happy acres

But let's be a little less extreme to try and make the victim the person giving the A OK.
Imagine a person being mugged at gunpoint.
Then the person being mugged tells the police the mugger had his permission to do what he did (hey, there are a lot of weird people out there, hell, we got them here too ).
Does that make it legal?
No.
You are in possession of a firearm, and guilty of using that firearm in an illegal act.
You are well and trully nicked sunshine.

You've got a hard drive full of illegal downloads and bootlegs?
Sorry, but the law says you've had it laughing boy.
Illegal activity is illegal activity, no matter who told you it was OK.

Originally Posted by CarylB

ie short clips which do not breach copyright;

Again, i'm singling this out as it's the most recent post on a re-occuring theme.

It is (believe it or not) illegal to record something from TV onto video, or record a song from the radio.

That is the law.

If you do not personally hold the copyright for media, you can bet your ass that somebody does, and copying that media is breach of that copyright.
No matter what it is, or however long.


Is it a silly law?
Does it encourage people to break the law and turn good and honest people into criminals?
Is it being a spoil sport?

Maybe it is (especially as VCR's and tape players have a record function, WTF did they think people were recording all those years? ), but it is the law.

Not too surprisingly, not everyone adheres to these laws.
If you were to lock up everybody guilty of recording a song off the radio, the prison service would have a hell of a problem
There wouldn't even be any police to arrest us.
I can see the headline now, "Police Chief Superintendant is shock arrest shame for illegal copy of Seven Tears by Goombay Dance Band taped from radio found in his car.Monster kept his secret stash safe since the 80's sources reveal".

There are people who will illegally download every movie and CD under the sun, make multiple copies and sell them for their own profit

There are people who will go through life never hitting the record button on their VCR or radio, and when you get to heaven, I hope it's as boring as you, you pious sonoffabitch

Most people find their own compromise based on their ethical beliefes.

More than one person on this thread has said they are happy to own bootlegs, as long as it is of something that is not commercially available.

Some people are happy to download an album, and if they like it buy a legitimate copy.

Some people just click the record button on their VCR.

No matter.As soon as you copy media belonging to another person, you are breaking the law.
Those is the facts.

[CarylB]

I hold NOTHNG illegal on my hard drive. I was instrumental in designing a site in 2000, in consultation with Meat's official international fanclub and everything we did was with Meat's permission and approval. I posted no clips, and am not going to accept being singled out as some flouter of the law to serve anyone else's purpose. We were advised that short 30 second clips as tasters were acceptable to raise interest and support Meat.

I do NOT condone bootleg recordings of concert performances, which is what I have always said. Short clips of TV promotions, again to support the artist, we were advised were fine.

Talk and examples of murdering people is as fatuous as it is irrelevant. Evil wants to try and prove I don't practice what I preach and rub my nose in it? He's out of luck. As are you. And frankly I don't give a rat's ass .. I do not record bootlegs, I do not post them. In fact I do not and have never posted ANY recordings on the internet. I don't know how to. I buy official recordings, I go to concerts, I do anything I can to support Meat. The clips we have used to support HCTB, including the LAR promotional video, were all cleared through Meat. Supporting Meat is all I care about. I do not "keep" things to crow that I have them and others don't. That has never been my style; never would be.

I do not download bootlegs or illicit recordings. My conscience is clear, my integrity intact.

Caryl

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by CarylB

and am not going to accept being singled out as some flouter of the law to serve anyone else's purpose.

Originally Posted by CarylB

Evil wants to try and prove I don't practice what I preach and rub my nose in it? He's out of luck. As are you.

Who's trying to single you out and rub your nose in it?

I said I singled out a comment of yours as it was the latest post in what I saw as a running theme in the thread.
And as many people have said themselves that they have downloaded bootlegs and other performances, I can't see how you believe you are being singled out as a wrong doer

Originally Posted by CarylB

Talk and examples of murdering people is as fatuous as it is irrelevant.

A little OTT perhaps, but my point is that artists are not in a position to encourage fans to break the law.
I would have thought, due to the conversation, that it was highly relevant.
And in a jo-cose manner, I think I made my point.

[CarylB]

And I have made and stand by mine. I do not download bootlegs. I do not record live performances. I do not post them on the internet.

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I do not download bootlegs. I do not record live performances. I do not post them on the internet.

Then you'll have never heard this:

YouTube Video

[snider22]

Originally Posted by Holy One

Then you'll have never heard this:

In all fairness to CarylB, "HEARD" is a completely different situation than "DOWNLOADED" or "RECORDED"

Chances are, 90% of the people on this site have heard that particular performance but it doesn't mean that we recorded it, or that have downloaded it, or that we are posting in other places for people to see.

[Evil One]

And my point is that if any of those 90% then go on to condemn bootlegs as the devil's work, they are being hypocritical.

[snider22]

The definition of hypocrite: "a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1292689022

Just because you listen to something doesn't mean that you can't be against bootlegs. Now, if she were to download that and then turn around and put it on a site like YouTube or Daily Motion for the world to see then yes, she would then be a bootlegger and a hypocrite, but that currently isn't the case. According to the logic you used above, if I were sitting in close proximity to someone who happened to be listening to that bootleg and I then condemned the used of bootlegs, then I would be a hypocrite simply because I had "heard" that something.

[Evil One]

You wouldn't have sought out the person you were sitting next to, in order to listen to the bootleg. Even if you came upon the recording of FCOL I posted above completely by chance, you would still have to click play, therefore it would be a conscious decision.

Just for the record I am not deliberately fingering Caryl just that she popped up in this thread with views dissimilar to mine.

[Sue K]

Hi, all ! I'm sorry, but I got a bit lost and dizzy reading all of this so, apologies, I did not and have a few questions.

What does it mean to download a bootleg? How does one do that ? I don't have all the bells and whistles hooked to my computer to do anything like copying movies or music or whatever.

Where is "bootleg" located ? On YouTube ? How does it get there ?

When I think "illegal bootleg", my mind goes to someone who has gone to a theater or concert and recorded the material and put it onto cds/ dvds and sold them for profit.

Is it a bad thing if I record something and listen to it for my pleasure alone and never tell a soul about it ? Am I committing a crime ?

In past, I have used a tape recorder to record music from the tv and radio. Is that a bad thing ? What about recording LPs onto tapes for my own pleasure and convenience ? What about if I've done that and given it to someone else ? Given, not sold, making no profit ?

I appreciate aid helping me to understand the above.

Thanks !

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by snider22

In all fairness to CarylB, "HEARD" is a completely different situation than "DOWNLOADED" or "RECORDED"

Chances are, 90% of the people on this site have heard that particular performance but it doesn't mean that we recorded it, or that have downloaded it, or that we are posting in other places for people to see.

Thanks Mark, but I don't think there's any intention amongst some here to be fair to me

And actually I have NOT listened to the recording Evil has posted, so am one of the ten per cent.

I've heard Meat sing FCOL live, I have it on a legitimate recording. That's enough for me. As I have said, I do not feel the need to hear everything Meat has ever done, nor to collect it. I have a beautiful recording of FCOL, I have the memory of hearing it live. Evil can throw up as many links to bootleg recordings as he likes. I don't give a rats ass .. he is wasting his time on some UNholy crusade which is pointless, (and has frissons back to when we were launching the Single Campaign!).

Bootlegs are not my style, never have been. I don't record them, don't seek them out, don't watch them when links are posted here. It's just my way, and people wanting to prove it's not are just wasting their time. If Meat sent me that recording and asked me to listen to it .. probably I would as I believe he has moral rights to it. Failing that, I do just as I say.

When leaked fragments from HCTB were being posted on here I did not click on them. My choice is to wait until Meat is ready for me to hear a new album as he wants me to hear it. Others can do what the hell they want, but I wil not be pushed or tempted into doing the same.

I save to go to see Meat perform in concert. I acknowledge I am lucky to have seen so many shows, although I have worked all my life to make my own luck. I have not listened to any of the bootlegs from this tour. I don't need to. I can still hear wonderful performances ringing in my memory, I can still see Meat triumphant on stage. That's enough for me.

Caryl

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by Holy One

Then you'll have never heard this:

I haven't heard it and don't have time right now to give it a listen, but I'm sure I will when I have time.

My question now is, if this is "bootleg" (from the picture, it appears someone at a concert taped it and years later when YouTube came to the internet or when there WAS an internet ... lol ... posted it to YouTube) and "bootleg" is illegal, why is it allowed to remain on YouTube ?

Thanks !

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by tink

I haven't heard it and don't have time right now to give it a listen, but I'm sure I will when I have time.

My question now is, if this is "bootleg" (from the picture, it appears someone at a concert taped it and years later when YouTube came to the internet or when there WAS an internet ... lol ... posted it to YouTube) and "bootleg" is illegal, why is it allowed to remain on YouTube ?

Thanks !

Interesting questions that shows the murky grey area of Youtube! It was taken from a radio broadcast of the concert, some of which was released on a promo LP, but not this song for some bizarre reason.

Technically if you are recording stuff from the telly or radio, even for your own use, it is classed as illegal. Realistically you're only likely to get into trouble if you are caught making your own CD's from this material and then selling it for profit.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Holy One

You wouldn't have sought out the person you were sitting next to, in order to listen to the bootleg. Even if you came upon the recording of FCOL I posted above completely by chance, you would still have to click play, therefore it would be a conscious decision.

Just for the record I am not deliberately fingering Caryl just that she popped up in this thread with views dissimilar to mine.

Something I'm entitled to hold. Given some of your views, something I could take pride in. And that I hold different views to you does not give you the right to repeatedly challenge me and suggest I do not do what I say. I am aware that the recording you refer to is a bootleg, and everytime I have seen a link posted to it I have made a conscious decision NOT to listen to it.

You say you are not "deliberately fingering" me (just as well, I'd have you for assault!) .. but you quote me, then give a link to a bootleg and say "Then you'll have never heard this:" Correct. I have not listened to it. I suggest you move on to try and demonstrate someone else who holds similar views to me is not telling the truth, because you won't demonstrate that I am not.

Caryl