Interesting report on illegal downloads

robgomm · 16 Dec 2010, 12:56

There was a report out this morning which makes for interesting reading and also an interesting discussion.

Apparently in the UK currently 7.7million people regularly download music illegally, and in the last year alone 1.2billion tracks have been downloaded illegally. Now as the UK music industry currently gets nearly 25% of it's revenue from downloads, the illegal downloads are really hurting the industry.

But you know it's an intersting thing to discuss, because I was saying to my Wife about it and she said, well what's the difference between what these poeple are doing now on the internet, and what we all did years ago when we used to tape the top 40 songs off the radio? Surely that was illegal copying too? And also if you think about it if you've got a DVD recorder at home, you can easily record tons of songs off of music channels and digital radio stations.

Now I have to admit, I have downloaded Meat Loaf songs in the past, BUT, this has only been songs from live shows that were never released on CD or video or DVD, am I wrong for doing this? I don't think I am, because there is a line to be drawn. If it's an officially released track, album, or DVD, that's when it's illegal in my book, because then you are hurting the music industry. But then I am saying it's illegal to tape stuff off the radio or record stuff on your DVD player, which i'm not sure I agree with, so my thoughts contradict themselves!

Anyway i'd love to hear everyones views on it, the report was really quite shocking to me with the numbers involved.

AndrewG · 16 Dec 2010, 13:28

I'm not sure what to believe with regards to such "reports". I do think illegal downloading is crazy. In my opinion people who do that do not respect basic morals. Just because you can do something doesn't make it legal obviously. I guess because the whole thing is very difficult to trace it becomes possible for people to keep doing this without getting caught. It's sad really. I also do not understand the feverish attempts by many people to get something for free. I much rather buy a digital (or preferably physical) album for £9 than waste evenings trying to download it and then discover there is probably something wrong with the files. I've witness many colleagues and friends downloading movies or music, taking ages over it and either getting the completely wrong thing or getting a virus installed on their computer in the process. Serves them right I guess. I personally can't think of a greater waste of my time.

Especially in the case of new and upcoming artists I think the illegal downloading is a shame as they lose revenue which may be necessary for them to continue making music.

I don't know how accurate these stats are but these do indicate that music spending, certainly with regards to concerts is certainly on the increase. In a perhaps saturated market it is probably still difficult to grab a piece of this pie.

I think a bigger problem is the ridiculous amount of TV related commercialisation in recent years which interestingly works constantly on a recording covers basis and not very much original music. Think of how many artists could make a living out of the money which instead goes to ITV/Simon Cowell (does he really need £200 million)/Apple (I'm pretty sure the "recording artists" get the smallest piece of the pie). Other companies are taking in large parts of the money from live performances these days too such as Ticketmaster and LiveNation.

Therefore I do not think that illegal downloading is solely hurting the music industry or its artists, a lot of it I think also has to do with a shift of the money which now goes to third party lazy companies (who are not really involved in creation at all), who cleverly now have a hold on the industry.

In the end I think it is always the honest consumer and original artist who get screwed over the most.

Wario · 16 Dec 2010, 15:16

The world should stop revolving around money is what i say. everything should be for free and stuff not released should be out their for the taking.

Jayd · 16 Dec 2010, 15:28

It will never go away, if anything become more widespread, as internet reaches more homes.

robgomm · 16 Dec 2010, 15:35

So is recording stuff off music channels and radio illegal?

Adje · 16 Dec 2010, 16:19

I think it was Bon Jovi that once said 'I don't mind people downloading our music as long as they visit the concerts' That's where the real cash and recognition lies for the artists. Not the cd sales. I tend to buy all my original cd's but when some artist/band gets a 'best of' release that contains one track not available on the other albums I download that.

Movies is another story. I actually download all my movies first OR go see them in a cinema and buy the good ones on BluRay later. And if you know you're way around the internet it's as safe as visiting a forum. I do honest labour and I need my bills to pay. The internet downloads are a great option for me to spend the bit money that is left on products I'm actually gonna like. So Andrew's statement about 'it's a time of waste' is not a fair one. In fact it's a good time investment if you have not that much to spend.

I agree on Andrew's final statement but for a complete other reason. Too many times the 'honest' comsumer gets screwed by the greediness of music compagnies. And too many times (new) artists get screwed by the same compagnies. It's too easy to blame it all on the downloaders. In the end it's about the popularity of an artist that decides his success. And it's not unlikely that many downloaders have helped 'new' artists on their way by listening to a cd that they would never buy in the first place. Yet because of that download fall in love with the music and actually go to the concerts.

As for non-official releases I'm very clear. If it exist make it available for the fans to get it for free. And let those fans decide if they want it or not.

jcmoorehead · 16 Dec 2010, 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by robgomm

So is recording stuff off music channels and radio illegal?

Technically it is but I don't think anyone would really do anything about it.

Illegal downloading is such a huge issue to get into because it affects each artist differently plus you can get even deeper into it when it relates to singles/albums and even bootlegs.

The thing is from what I know a lot of bands don't make much money from album sales as it is, most of that money goes to the record company and it's generally the touring where artists make money. I'm not sure if thats true or not because you hear so many different things regarding the issue.

The only music I download, I guess you could say illegally, are bootlegs but they're such a massive grey area. Most of the bootlegs I download are Dream Theater ones and they support people trading bootlegs.

**SueW** · 16 Dec 2010, 16:33

I work for an artist management company (i.e. we manage and work for musicians) so that will colour my opinion slightly but any illegal download is THEFT.

People seem to easily forget that this is the music BUSINESS and if you download music or movies illegally then you are taking money from the musicians (and yes the record companies).

It's all very well saying that you'll download it illegally and if you like it then you'll buy it but HMV don't have a policy that you can steal CDs and then come back and buy one if you actually like the music so it should be the same on the internet.

If some musicians choose to upload their own music and let people download it for free (or give away CDs at the concerts like Meat Loaf has) then that's their choice but if you are downloading illegally then you are taking away their right to choose how their music is distributed.

Of course, I realise that it is hard to police illegal downloads nowadays but just because something is easy to get away with, doesn't make it any less illegal.

Evil One · 16 Dec 2010, 17:56

If it's available to buy and is a reasonable price, then I have no problem paying for it. If it's not available to buy (ie a bootleg) then I have no issue downloading it; it should be free for everyone and shame on the record company for not putting out the product and making a few quid off it.

TheDoode · 16 Dec 2010, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy One

If it's available to buy and is a reasonable price, then I have no problem paying for it. If it's not available to buy (ie a bootleg) then I have no issue downloading it; it should be free for everyone and shame on the record company for not putting out the product and making a few quid off it.

I concur.

And holy f*ck balls, you really DID eat that Hell in a Handbasket sandwich from Subway =O

D.

AndrewG · 16 Dec 2010, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adje

So Andrew's statement about 'it's a time of waste' is not a fair one. In fact it's a good time investment if you have not that much to spend.

It's a waste of MY time, which is what I wrote, whatever anyone else choses to do is up to them.

I don't even have time to watch all the DVDs/ Blu Rays I own + I have a £15.99 per month subscription with Lovefilm which gets me unlimited movies (I can't see how that would break the bank for anyone but fair enough). In addition to this I love going to the cinema as it makes for the best experience for movies. Yes I saw a small part of Avatar on a bootleg DVD when the movie was still in the cinema, but the quality was so appalling indeed I really wonder why people bother, but it's up to them. For me it's simply not worth it and rather spend money on a good quality product.

A Slice Of English · 16 Dec 2010, 19:57

And as a Police Officer, I would be remiss if I didn't reinforce the fact that downloading music and movies without paying for them is indeed a criminal offence of theft for which anyone in the UK could be sentenced up to 7 years imprisonment on indictment if convicted of so doing.

I shit ye not.

robgomm · 16 Dec 2010, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy One

If it's available to buy and is a reasonable price, then I have no problem paying for it. If it's not available to buy (ie a bootleg) then I have no issue downloading it; it should be free for everyone and shame on the record company for not putting out the product and making a few quid off it.

I think this is actually the best argument so far, 100% agree with you.

On another note, what about if I rent a film from lovefilm and then copy it? Technically I have paid for the movie right?

Regarding movies I have to say I love going to the cinema, went last night in fact to see the new Harry Potter, but I think the price they charge now is absurd. Cinema prices have just gone up and up and up over the years and theirs no excuse for it. I don't think they can even blame piracy because movie piracy didn't used to a huge problem. I couldn't say what started the problems really, the prices going up or piracy of movies, but it's too expensive now. £24 for 3 of us to see that film last night.

duke knooby · 16 Dec 2010, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by robgomm

Technically I have paid for the movie right?

technically you have paid for the rental of the movie (for a limited time period)

(i imagine)

duke knooby · 16 Dec 2010, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Slice Of English

I would be remiss if I didn't reinforce the fact that downloading music and movies without paying for them is indeed a criminal offence of theft for which anyone in the UK could be sentenced up to 7 years imprisonment on indictment if convicted of so doing.

I shit ye not.

.....however as most shop lifters convicted of theft get ~~~~~~ all etc etc

youngJB · 16 Dec 2010, 22:33

I've heard tons of small-time bands actually encourage torrent downloads, and it really does generate thousands more fans. Sure, the industry doesn't make money off of it, but people enjoy their music. And isn't that the point?

I've made a point to buy all of Meat's albums legally, several of them multiple times, but I'll admit I use loopholes every once and a while - AKA record stereo background sound off the computer with audacity etc. It all comes down to music sharing. If it's not done on the computer, it'll be done some other way. And if I bought ever song on my itunes, my entire family would be living in the street. A dollar per song on itunes is ridiculous. The industry needs to change if they want to filch money to that extent.

Julie in the rv mirror · 16 Dec 2010, 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by robgomm

But you know it's an intersting thing to discuss, because I was saying to my Wife about it and she said, well what's the difference between what these poeple are doing now on the internet, and what we all did years ago when we used to tape the top 40 songs off the radio? Surely that was illegal copying too?

It is similar (and yes, I think technically illegal), but there is a difference, at least in my experience. For one, those recordings off the radio didn't have the same sound quality as a record or commercial tape would have. Plus, you might have the DJ talking over parts of songs or such. I never taped much, but if I did, it was usually just to hold me over until I could go out and buy the record. Nowadays, people will buy a CD, rip it and post the files for anyone to take, with (I assume) little loss in the quality. Plus, with the limits of analog tape, if you made copies of copies to distribute the song, eventually it would sound terrible. And, you'd conceivably only give copies to your friends anyway, which is way fewer people than a digital download would reach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robgomm

Now I have to admit, I have downloaded Meat Loaf songs in the past, BUT, this has only been songs from live shows that were never released on CD or video or DVD, am I wrong for doing this? I don't think I am, because there is a line to be drawn. If it's an officially released track, album, or DVD, that's when it's illegal in my book, because then you are hurting the music industry.

I pay for all my officially released music, as a matter of principle. Bootlegs are a different matter, IMO; while they are still illegal, it's not competing with something the artist has officially released. I think anyone who is devoted enough to an artist that they are going to seek out bootlegs, they will buy all the official material, but maybe that's a wrong assumption. There's typically little money to made by bootleggers these days, so most recordings are made by fans to share with other fans. As was pointed out, some artists allow sharing outright, while some others do very little to stop it. I would happily pay for good quality recordings of live shows, but if they aren't available, I have no problem downloading a boot.

I agree that the artists who are most hurt by illegal downloading are new and up and comimg artists, because they don't have years of record sales behind them, nor can they draw thousands of people to a live show to make up for what they are losing on record sales. An artist has to recoup costs of recording an album, which ultimately are their responsibilty, not the record compamy's. (However, for an act that has a great live show, boots may actually help them build their reputation.) I think veteran artists nowadays realize the money is to be made on the live shows (as in the Bon Jovi example given). I think illegal downloading is thus in a large part to blame for increasing concert ticket prices.

PanicLord · 17 Dec 2010, 01:05

All - before reading the rest of my post, please be aware that I am not judging any person in particular and am in most cases simply documenting my understanding of the law from my uni studies! Trying to think like a lawyer

It is possible that I myself may have downloaded a couple of copyrighted things that I shouldn't have in the early days of downloads. Had I done so, I would have still known that it was wrong, felt guilty about it, and either got rid of those items entirely, or replaced them with legally obtained copies. So I do accept that it can generate sales if the thief is willing to mend their ways in the future, but sadly this doesn't always happen. And even if it does, it doesn't erase the earlier theft. Perhaps only salves the concience of the thief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarioLoaf

The world should stop revolving around money is what i say. everything should be for free and stuff not released should be out their for the taking.

Yes, lovely. 2 questions though:
* Still go to work would you if you didn't get paid?
* Please could you post a list of all your worldly posessions and how we can get hold of them to eg this forum? I quite like your microphone and as you haven't made it publicly available I shall assume it's mine for the taking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robgomm

So is recording stuff off music channels and radio illegal?

Yes, technically you should assume so, unless you are specifically given the right to do so by the TV / Radio channel, who would have had to get permission from the copyright holder to enable them to do so etc.

However, there have been court cases about this and the courts uphold that it is perfectly reasonable to record such broadcasts for your own personal use and later viewing / listening etc.

I mean, the BBC would be very hard pressed to argue breach of copyright if you record something off Freeview BBC1 when they themselves are pushing Freeview recorders, unless it was specifically stated that the programme in question was excluded from this general ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adje

I think it was Bon Jovi that once said 'I don't mind people downloading our music as long as they visit the concerts'

That's fine them saying that, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is legal for you to do so. It may mean they wouldn't prosecute anyone who does it, but again that may be a decision out of their hands if they have signed over that right to the record label or whoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adje

In fact it's a good time investment if you have not that much to spend.

Well yes. I suspect burglary and money laundering are too, but that doesn't make it any less illegal or harmful to the victims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adje

Too many times the 'honest' comsumer gets screwed by the greediness of music compagnies. And too many times (new) artists get screwed by the same compagnies.

I certainly agree with you there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adje

It's too easy to blame it all on the downloaders.

Yes. Because it is their fault. No one forces you to steal the song / film / album etc, even if it is possible to do so.

Would you steal a car because you thought it was too expensive from the local dealer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmoorehead

Illegal downloading is such a huge issue to get into because it affects each artist differently plus you can get even deeper into it when it relates to singles/albums and even bootlegs.

Nope - it is very simple. I have highlighted a word from your quote that should help

I guess you could argue that it is a difficult issue to decide what constitutes legal vs illegal downloading, but again that's a bit of a red herring - it is illegal to obtain or make a copy of something that is copyrighted unless you are given the right to do so.

Imagine a music track that you created as an entirely original piece and which you therefore have automatic copyright over, and think of it as a possession in your house, like your TV. Clearly, if that is your TV only you have the right to have it and if anyone takes it without your permission they are stealing it. It is no different with the music track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmoorehead

The thing is from what I know a lot of bands don't make much money from album sales as it is, most of that money goes to the record company and it's generally the touring where artists make money. I'm not sure if thats true or not because you hear so many different things regarding the issue.

I would imagine that is true - but it is entirely irrelevant to whether it is illegal to steal it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmoorehead

The only music I download, I guess you could say illegally, are bootlegs but they're such a massive grey area. Most of the bootlegs I download are Dream Theater ones and they support people trading bootlegs.

Bootlegs are NOT a grey area. Again, a major clue is in the name. If you have not specifically and legally been given permission to obtain a copy of that copyright material then you have stolen it.

If the Dream Engine have the copyright in their live performances and have clearly and publicly stated that they support trading bootlegged copies of such, then I guess that would be sufficient. If they don't own the copyright, then it is not up to them in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SueW

I work for an artist management company (i.e. we manage and work for musicians) so that will colour my opinion slightly but any illegal download is THEFT.

People seem to easily forget that this is the music BUSINESS and if you download music or movies illegally then you are taking money from the musicians (and yes the record companies).

It's all very well saying that you'll download it illegally and if you like it then you'll buy it but HMV don't have a policy that you can steal CDs and then come back and buy one if you actually like the music so it should be the same on the internet.

If some musicians choose to upload their own music and let people download it for free (or give away CDs at the concerts like Meat Loaf has) then that's their choice but if you are downloading illegally then you are taking away their right to choose how their music is distributed.

Of course, I realise that it is hard to police illegal downloads nowadays but just because something is easy to get away with, doesn't make it any less illegal.

Hear hear! Absolutely right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy One

If it's available to buy and is a reasonable price, then I have no problem paying for it. If it's not available to buy (ie a bootleg) then I have no issue downloading it; it should be free for everyone and shame on the record company for not putting out the product and making a few quid off it.

I partly agree with you in the sense that I hate the way the companies started throwing lawsuits around all over the place instead of making their products easily available at reasonable prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robgomm

On another note, what about if I rent a film from lovefilm and then copy it? Technically I have paid for the movie right?

No, absolutely not, in the same way that you dont own a rented car or house. You have paid for access to that film or films for a limited period of time with no actual legal right to make a personal copy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robgomm

Regarding movies I have to say I love going to the cinema, went last night in fact to see the new Harry Potter, but I think the price they charge now is absurd. Cinema prices have just gone up and up and up over the years and theirs no excuse for it. I don't think they can even blame piracy because movie piracy didn't used to a huge problem. I couldn't say what started the problems really, the prices going up or piracy of movies, but it's too expensive now. £24 for 3 of us to see that film last night.

A couple of points here:

* Prices are quite high now and have certainly gone up. When I was 16 you could see a film for less than £6 most of the time, adult prices. But that was 15 years ago! There was no minimum wage back then, employment rights and costs (in terms of national insurance, tax, pensions etc) were probably lower, land costs (ie rent) were generally lower, electricity was I guess cheaper, there probably was less piracy (as I guess it was harder). Film production budgets were generally much lower. Plus, all the cinemas I now go to are WAY nicer places to watch a film than they were back then. Better projection, sound, seating, cooling etc. There are a huge number of factors that affect the price of the ticket, and I don't really think that £8 is really all that much when you take all that into account, and add in 13 years of inflation on top of it all!

* If you paid the £24 then you are not really demonstrating the view that it is too expensive

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

you'd conceivably only give copies to your friends anyway, which is way fewer people than a digital download would reach.

Exactly - the key is now that one person could copy it and suddenly millions if not billions of people can easily steal it by making their own copies of the copy.

GDW · 17 Dec 2010, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Slice Of English

And as a Police Officer, I would be remiss if I didn't reinforce the fact that downloading music and movies without paying for them is indeed a criminal offence of theft for which anyone in the UK could be sentenced up to 7 years imprisonment on indictment if convicted of so doing.

I shit ye not.

Better start building some bigger prisons to fit everyone in. One on every street corner should do.

**Monstro** · 17 Dec 2010, 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Trying to think like a lawyer

Which, translated into normal person speak, means it'll cost you £200 to read the post

A Slice Of English · 17 Dec 2010, 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDW

Better start building some bigger prisons to fit everyone in. One on every street corner should do.

I'd rather build some offshore prison ships if there was the money around to do it. Get the scum off the island.

Unfortunately I don't have anything to do with the prison situation. I don't write the laws, I just enforce 'em, as best I can.

Julie in the rv mirror · 17 Dec 2010, 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Would you steal a car because you thought it was too expensive from the local dealer?

No, of course not. And I've never illegally downloaded music because I thought it was too expensive to buy. I think there's a distinction between pirated music, which is an illegal copy of an official release, and a bootleg, which is in most cases, an audience recording of a live concert.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Bootlegs are NOT a grey area. Again, a major clue is in the name. If you have not specifically and legally been given permission to obtain a copy of that copyright material then you have stolen it.

They are a grey area, to my knowledge, and no, I am not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV

). At the very least, there are loopholes in the law. I can walk into my local record store right now and find loads of CDs and DVDs that I know for a fact are bootlegs right out on the racks. If it's illegal, how do they get away with it? They slap an "Import" sticker on it. AFAIK, the laws in parts of Europe are different than in the US. In some countries, it's legal to record a show and sell it, provided that you pay a "royalty" to the performer. So, bootleggers simply set up a token account, thus satisfying the law, regardless if the artist collects it or not. At least it was this way- may be different now. I've noticed that many of the bootleg CD's I've seen are of concerts recorded outside of the US.

Speaking strictly as Devil's advocate, if I have made my own recording of a show, to share with my friends, it's not really much different than people who take pictures at a show and post them, or post videos of it on youtube. Provided, of course, I'm not selling the recording to make a profit.

PanicLord · 17 Dec 2010, 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monstro

Which, translated into normal person speak, means it'll cost you £200 to read the post

Lol - very good idea!

PanicLord · 17 Dec 2010, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

No, of course not. And I've never illegally downloaded music because I thought it was too expensive to buy. I think there's a distinction between pirated music, which is an illegal copy of an official release, and a bootleg, which is in most cases, an audience recording of a live concert.

There probably is a distinction - as I say, I am not an expert either, although I have watched many episodes of Perry Mason, mainly for the awesome theme tune

However, distinction or not, they are still both illegal. If you are an audience member (at least in the UK), then you do not have the right to make a copy of the concert unless you are specifically given the right to do so in the ts and cs of eg the ticket, or the venue, or someone with the ability to give you that right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

They are a grey area, to my knowledge, and no, I am not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV

). At the very least, there are loopholes in the law. I can walk into my local record store right now and find loads of CDs and DVDs that I know for a fact are bootlegs right out on the racks. If it's illegal, how do they get away with it? They slap an "Import" sticker on it. AFAIK, the laws in parts of Europe are different than in the US. In some countries, it's legal to record a show and sell it, provided that you pay a "royalty" to the performer. So, bootleggers simply set up a token account, thus satisfying the law, regardless if the artist collects it or not. At least it was this way- may be different now. I've noticed that many of the bootleg CD's I've seen are of concerts recorded outside of the US.

I thought that many of the basic copyright laws were international, and then I guess each country can build on that basis. I'm sure there are some countries that dont enforce them or have relaxed the law etc, and "loopholes" certainly always exist. In fact, loophole is also a bit of a misleading term, mainly used by eg The Daily Mail to make us hate lawyers and foreigners more. If a law specifies a way of avoiding the main requirements of that law, or does not specify that something very specific is a requirement, then it is absolutely fine to avoid the main requirement or not to do the thing that they missed out (hope that makes sense, did in my head!).

Again, I've highlighted something key in your quote - if it satifies the law (however dubious it may appear), then it is not illegal.

Oh and getting away with it certainly doesn't make something legal!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Speaking strictly as Devil's advocate, if I have made my own recording of a show, to share with my friends, it's not really much different than people who take pictures at a show and post them, or post videos of it on youtube. Provided, of course, I'm not selling the recording to make a profit.

Absolutely it isn't any different - it is still illegal. Hence Meat or Red Pony or whoever owns the copyright is able to get them removed should they choose to do so. Whether you sell it or not is irrelevant (regardless of whether it is for profit) to whether you legally own it in the first place.

robgomm · 17 Dec 2010, 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanicLord

* If you paid the £24 then you are not really demonstrating the view that it is too expensive

Actually I am because that's the first time I have been to cinema in ages due to the prices.

16 Dec 2010, 12:56	#1
robgomm Mega Loafer Join Date: 22.10.2006 Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK Posts: 1,671	Interesting report on illegal downloads There was a report out this morning which makes for interesting reading and also an interesting discussion. Apparently in the UK currently 7.7million people regularly download music illegally, and in the last year alone 1.2billion tracks have been downloaded illegally. Now as the UK music industry currently gets nearly 25% of it's revenue from downloads, the illegal downloads are really hurting the industry. But you know it's an intersting thing to discuss, because I was saying to my Wife about it and she said, well what's the difference between what these poeple are doing now on the internet, and what we all did years ago when we used to tape the top 40 songs off the radio? Surely that was illegal copying too? And also if you think about it if you've got a DVD recorder at home, you can easily record tons of songs off of music channels and digital radio stations. Now I have to admit, I have downloaded Meat Loaf songs in the past, BUT, this has only been songs from live shows that were never released on CD or video or DVD, am I wrong for doing this? I don't think I am, because there is a line to be drawn. If it's an officially released track, album, or DVD, that's when it's illegal in my book, because then you are hurting the music industry. But then I am saying it's illegal to tape stuff off the radio or record stuff on your DVD player, which i'm not sure I agree with, so my thoughts contradict themselves! Anyway i'd love to hear everyones views on it, the report was really quite shocking to me with the numbers involved.

16 Dec 2010, 13:28	#2
AndrewG I hope your salmon sucks! Join Date: 18.01.2004 Location: Northamptonshire Posts: 7,077	I'm not sure what to believe with regards to such "reports". I do think illegal downloading is crazy. In my opinion people who do that do not respect basic morals. Just because you can do something doesn't make it legal obviously. I guess because the whole thing is very difficult to trace it becomes possible for people to keep doing this without getting caught. It's sad really. I also do not understand the feverish attempts by many people to get something for free. I much rather buy a digital (or preferably physical) album for £9 than waste evenings trying to download it and then discover there is probably something wrong with the files. I've witness many colleagues and friends downloading movies or music, taking ages over it and either getting the completely wrong thing or getting a virus installed on their computer in the process. Serves them right I guess. I personally can't think of a greater waste of my time. Especially in the case of new and upcoming artists I think the illegal downloading is a shame as they lose revenue which may be necessary for them to continue making music. I don't know how accurate these stats are but these do indicate that music spending, certainly with regards to concerts is certainly on the increase. In a perhaps saturated market it is probably still difficult to grab a piece of this pie. I think a bigger problem is the ridiculous amount of TV related commercialisation in recent years which interestingly works constantly on a recording covers basis and not very much original music. Think of how many artists could make a living out of the money which instead goes to ITV/Simon Cowell (does he really need £200 million)/Apple (I'm pretty sure the "recording artists" get the smallest piece of the pie). Other companies are taking in large parts of the money from live performances these days too such as Ticketmaster and LiveNation. Therefore I do not think that illegal downloading is solely hurting the music industry or its artists, a lot of it I think also has to do with a shift of the money which now goes to third party lazy companies (who are not really involved in creation at all), who cleverly now have a hold on the industry. In the end I think it is always the honest consumer and original artist who get screwed over the most.

16 Dec 2010, 15:16	#3
Wario Monstro helps me spell things... Join Date: 05.01.2007 Location: Masculine, Pennsylvania Posts: 9,105	The world should stop revolving around money is what i say. everything should be for free and stuff not released should be out their for the taking.

16 Dec 2010, 15:28	#4
Jayd If I could bust into hell....... I would Join Date: 13.06.2003 Location: Montclair, New Jersey Posts: 1,312	It will never go away, if anything become more widespread, as internet reaches more homes.

16 Dec 2010, 15:35	#5
robgomm Mega Loafer Join Date: 22.10.2006 Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK Posts: 1,671	So is recording stuff off music channels and radio illegal?

16 Dec 2010, 16:19	#6
Adje trying to be realistic Join Date: 28.09.2007 Location: Posts: 1,959	I think it was Bon Jovi that once said 'I don't mind people downloading our music as long as they visit the concerts' That's where the real cash and recognition lies for the artists. Not the cd sales. I tend to buy all my original cd's but when some artist/band gets a 'best of' release that contains one track not available on the other albums I download that. Movies is another story. I actually download all my movies first OR go see them in a cinema and buy the good ones on BluRay later. And if you know you're way around the internet it's as safe as visiting a forum. I do honest labour and I need my bills to pay. The internet downloads are a great option for me to spend the bit money that is left on products I'm actually gonna like. So Andrew's statement about 'it's a time of waste' is not a fair one. In fact it's a good time investment if you have not that much to spend. I agree on Andrew's final statement but for a complete other reason. Too many times the 'honest' comsumer gets screwed by the greediness of music compagnies. And too many times (new) artists get screwed by the same compagnies. It's too easy to blame it all on the downloaders. In the end it's about the popularity of an artist that decides his success. And it's not unlikely that many downloaders have helped 'new' artists on their way by listening to a cd that they would never buy in the first place. Yet because of that download fall in love with the music and actually go to the concerts. As for non-official releases I'm very clear. If it exist make it available for the fans to get it for free. And let those fans decide if they want it or not.

16 Dec 2010, 16:33	#8
SueW Moderator Join Date: 14.04.2002 Posts: 1,345	I work for an artist management company (i.e. we manage and work for musicians) so that will colour my opinion slightly but any illegal download is THEFT. People seem to easily forget that this is the music BUSINESS and if you download music or movies illegally then you are taking money from the musicians (and yes the record companies). It's all very well saying that you'll download it illegally and if you like it then you'll buy it but HMV don't have a policy that you can steal CDs and then come back and buy one if you actually like the music so it should be the same on the internet. If some musicians choose to upload their own music and let people download it for free (or give away CDs at the concerts like Meat Loaf has) then that's their choice but if you are downloading illegally then you are taking away their right to choose how their music is distributed. Of course, I realise that it is hard to police illegal downloads nowadays but just because something is easy to get away with, doesn't make it any less illegal.

16 Dec 2010, 17:56	#9
Evil One Mega Loafer Join Date: 15.01.2007 Posts: 5,192	If it's available to buy and is a reasonable price, then I have no problem paying for it. If it's not available to buy (ie a bootleg) then I have no issue downloading it; it should be free for everyone and shame on the record company for not putting out the product and making a few quid off it.

16 Dec 2010, 19:57	#12
A Slice Of English Guest Join Date: 10.11.2003 Posts: 1,258	And as a Police Officer, I would be remiss if I didn't reinforce the fact that downloading music and movies without paying for them is indeed a criminal offence of theft for which anyone in the UK could be sentenced up to 7 years imprisonment on indictment if convicted of so doing. I shit ye not.

16 Dec 2010, 22:33	#16
youngJB Senior Loafer Join Date: 05.12.2009 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 116	I've heard tons of small-time bands actually encourage torrent downloads, and it really does generate thousands more fans. Sure, the industry doesn't make money off of it, but people enjoy their music. And isn't that the point? I've made a point to buy all of Meat's albums legally, several of them multiple times, but I'll admit I use loopholes every once and a while - AKA record stereo background sound off the computer with audacity etc. It all comes down to music sharing. If it's not done on the computer, it'll be done some other way. And if I bought ever song on my itunes, my entire family would be living in the street. A dollar per song on itunes is ridiculous. The industry needs to change if they want to filch money to that extent.