Not an obvious conection (READ FIRST POST CAREFULLY)

**The Flying Mouse** · 20 Mar 2004, 19:10

Disclaimer

This thread contains a subject that many may find contreversial.
Please be aware that this conversation is NOT in any way political,rather a conversation about rock tradition.
Posters are asked to stay STRICTLY on topic.
Anybody posting offensive or inflamitory remarks can expect an official warning, and for their post to be deleted.

This is an international fan club, and we do not wish to offend anybody.

Thank you.
F.M.

Heli · 20 Mar 2004, 19:12

I dont get it

**The Flying Mouse** · 20 Mar 2004, 19:33

Hi folks.
I have wondered about this for a long time.
Why is/was Rock music so closely associated with German military insignia of WWII?

It's not as common these days, but once, along with a Harley and leather jacket, an Iron Cross and Steel Helmet were considered essential kit for the serious rocker.

Examples include....

The SS runes used in the band name Kiss.

The said Iron Crosses, and skull and crossbones badges were ten a penny.

Eddie's Steel Helmet in Rocky Horror.(Also worn by at least one member of every biker gang in any movie that has bikers, many of these featured insignia).

In the movie, Any Way Witch Way But Loose, the leader of the biker gang wears the cap of a German Naval Leuitenant.

In the book about Meat & Jim written by Sandy Roberton, there are period photos of the Allgermeine SS (which I personally thought had no place

).There is also a picture of Meat (in the same book) standing next to a guy wearing an army patern breast eagle.

As Rock music is by nature very rebelious, I have always found it strange that rockers should adopt the insignia of a regime that was very conformitive, and conducted by officials in such precise uniform.

The thought of a scruffy long haired biker compared to a very stiffly dressed officer in such formal uniform is obscure to say the least

Does anyone have any idea why these insignias were adopted by rockers, or have any opinions to what extent they were used?

(As already stated, please keep this conversation to the wearing of this insignia, not opinions of the regime that created them).

black dog · 20 Mar 2004, 21:34

I always understood that the swarstika was actually a cross and therefore a symbol of good prior to the use of it by the Nazis.

**The Flying Mouse** · 20 Mar 2004, 21:56

Actually it's an old Hindi symbol.It originally faced the other way.
It was used also commonly as a sign of good luck (including in England) on broaches.
But back to the point, why where these insignias adopted by rockers?

black dog · 20 Mar 2004, 22:21

I have looked around the net since my last post and the Swarstika seems to have been used by lots of different people over the last 3,000 years. Mostly the opposite may to the Nazis but sometimes the same way.

Anyway as you say back to topic.

I think it may have been used as a rebellion as these symbols would have been the one thing that most people would not want to use because of the stigma involved.

Rob The Badger · 20 Mar 2004, 22:31

I find there to be a disturbing amount of this partciular imagary in 'Hair Metal' bands from the 80's. You, for example, mentioned KISS.
My take is that it's a morbid fascination with the Nazi regime. The fact that something could take over a country in under a decade fascinates people (There are no real symbols of Italian Fascism other than the Fasci itself, not very rock and roll). The iron cross and imperial eagle signidy a dark edge that rock wanted to posess. They wanted to shock people, push people's buttons. So they used symbols that were traditionally taboo. Many symbols were taken from the occult, and Nazi Germany. It's shock value. IMHO.

Chris · 21 Mar 2004, 20:40

I'm agreeing with the badger on this one.

I think it was all part of the rebellious nature of rock music when it first came out. By adopting symbols that were so identified with shocking people rockers were proclaiming their seperation (for want of a better world) from the conforming approaches of mainstream music.

To be perfectly honest, I think, if the Nazi regime and others had adopted butterflies and bunnies as their symbols, that is where rock music would have gone.

Another interesting point is how the symbology has changed over the years. In the early years, many of the rockers would have been young children or not born during the war and would have most likely been told war stories on their grandfathers knee.

In more contemporary times, religion has been a main topic in many people younger lives and todays rockers are more adn more starting to adopt symbols rebelling against that. One only has to look at the number of artists such as Marilyn Manson who adopt the number 666 in their album imagery. This is even more noticeable in the US where religious groups are to an extent more active than the UK and have their own tv channels, radio stations and such like.

Just my opinion

Caz · 21 Mar 2004, 20:51

I tend to agree. Adopt a symbol that is bound to shock and cause outrage and you get the reaction you want i.e., the swatzika <sp>, shock, horror, among the generation that remember the war.

I have a friend, who is an ex hells angel, and hopefully he'll be on msn later tonight, so I'll make a point of asking him his take on this (and hopefully, as he is jewish, he won't be insulted when i ask him)

20 Mar 2004, 19:10	#1
The Flying Mouse Armed ba$tard and Jo's other half. Join Date: 06.08.2002 Location: In the middle of nowhere near the end of the line. Posts: 16,104	Not an obvious conection (READ FIRST POST CAREFULLY) Disclaimer This thread contains a subject that many may find contreversial. Please be aware that this conversation is NOT in any way political,rather a conversation about rock tradition. Posters are asked to stay STRICTLY on topic. Anybody posting offensive or inflamitory remarks can expect an official warning, and for their post to be deleted. This is an international fan club, and we do not wish to offend anybody. Thank you. F.M.

20 Mar 2004, 19:12	#2
Heli Daddy's little internet junkie Join Date: 29.01.2004 Location: Grimsby Posts: 4,596	I dont get it

20 Mar 2004, 19:33	#3
The Flying Mouse Armed ba$tard and Jo's other half. Join Date: 06.08.2002 Location: In the middle of nowhere near the end of the line. Posts: 16,104	Hi folks. I have wondered about this for a long time. Why is/was Rock music so closely associated with German military insignia of WWII? It's not as common these days, but once, along with a Harley and leather jacket, an Iron Cross and Steel Helmet were considered essential kit for the serious rocker. Examples include.... The SS runes used in the band name Kiss. The said Iron Crosses, and skull and crossbones badges were ten a penny. Eddie's Steel Helmet in Rocky Horror.(Also worn by at least one member of every biker gang in any movie that has bikers, many of these featured insignia). In the movie, Any Way Witch Way But Loose, the leader of the biker gang wears the cap of a German Naval Leuitenant. In the book about Meat & Jim written by Sandy Roberton, there are period photos of the Allgermeine SS (which I personally thought had no place ).There is also a picture of Meat (in the same book) standing next to a guy wearing an army patern breast eagle. As Rock music is by nature very rebelious, I have always found it strange that rockers should adopt the insignia of a regime that was very conformitive, and conducted by officials in such precise uniform. The thought of a scruffy long haired biker compared to a very stiffly dressed officer in such formal uniform is obscure to say the least Does anyone have any idea why these insignias were adopted by rockers, or have any opinions to what extent they were used? (As already stated, please keep this conversation to the wearing of this insignia, not opinions of the regime that created them).

20 Mar 2004, 21:34	#4
black dog Mega Loafer Join Date: 21.11.2003 Location: Cornwall Posts: 1,667	I always understood that the swarstika was actually a cross and therefore a symbol of good prior to the use of it by the Nazis.

20 Mar 2004, 21:56	#5
The Flying Mouse Armed ba$tard and Jo's other half. Join Date: 06.08.2002 Location: In the middle of nowhere near the end of the line. Posts: 16,104	Actually it's an old Hindi symbol.It originally faced the other way. It was used also commonly as a sign of good luck (including in England) on broaches. But back to the point, why where these insignias adopted by rockers?

20 Mar 2004, 22:21	#6
black dog Mega Loafer Join Date: 21.11.2003 Location: Cornwall Posts: 1,667	I have looked around the net since my last post and the Swarstika seems to have been used by lots of different people over the last 3,000 years. Mostly the opposite may to the Nazis but sometimes the same way. Anyway as you say back to topic. I think it may have been used as a rebellion as these symbols would have been the one thing that most people would not want to use because of the stigma involved.

20 Mar 2004, 22:31	#7
Rob The Badger Too sexy for this post Join Date: 14.04.2002 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 2,895	I find there to be a disturbing amount of this partciular imagary in 'Hair Metal' bands from the 80's. You, for example, mentioned KISS. My take is that it's a morbid fascination with the Nazi regime. The fact that something could take over a country in under a decade fascinates people (There are no real symbols of Italian Fascism other than the Fasci itself, not very rock and roll). The iron cross and imperial eagle signidy a dark edge that rock wanted to posess. They wanted to shock people, push people's buttons. So they used symbols that were traditionally taboo. Many symbols were taken from the occult, and Nazi Germany. It's shock value. IMHO.

21 Mar 2004, 20:40	#8
Chris Mega Loafer Join Date: 14.04.2002 Location: Somewhere in the real world. Posts: 7,527	I'm agreeing with the badger on this one. I think it was all part of the rebellious nature of rock music when it first came out. By adopting symbols that were so identified with shocking people rockers were proclaiming their seperation (for want of a better world) from the conforming approaches of mainstream music. To be perfectly honest, I think, if the Nazi regime and others had adopted butterflies and bunnies as their symbols, that is where rock music would have gone. Another interesting point is how the symbology has changed over the years. In the early years, many of the rockers would have been young children or not born during the war and would have most likely been told war stories on their grandfathers knee. In more contemporary times, religion has been a main topic in many people younger lives and todays rockers are more adn more starting to adopt symbols rebelling against that. One only has to look at the number of artists such as Marilyn Manson who adopt the number 666 in their album imagery. This is even more noticeable in the US where religious groups are to an extent more active than the UK and have their own tv channels, radio stations and such like. Just my opinion

21 Mar 2004, 20:51	#9
Caz Super Loafer Join Date: 27.01.2004 Location: Dechmont, West Lothian, Scotland Posts: 900	I tend to agree. Adopt a symbol that is bound to shock and cause outrage and you get the reaction you want i.e., the swatzika <sp>, shock, horror, among the generation that remember the war. I have a friend, who is an ex hells angel, and hopefully he'll be on msn later tonight, so I'll make a point of asking him his take on this (and hopefully, as he is jewish, he won't be insulted when i ask him)