Is it true? Was Meat Loaf the first punk & metal singer?

White of High · 20 Jul 2003, 00:51

Well, you can read it in some rock-encyclopedia. At first Meat Loaf & Jim Steinman did metal and punk. I'd like to know what is your opinion about it. Was Meat Loaf the first or others?

**The Flying Mouse** · 20 Jul 2003, 03:43

I maintain that Meat & Jimmy invented Metal

.
Metal has changed a lot over the last 25 years.Metal is invented.The next guy goes that little bit louder and faster.So does the next guy.After 25 years of people going louder and faster,it is inevitable that Metal will sound a lot different than how it started out.
As for punk,that's a completly different thing.

According to the new album,Meat used to be a man of steel.But he'll be the godfather of Metal forever

Shane · 20 Jul 2003, 05:15

I haven't seen any evidence that Jim and Meat actually invented metal. However, I have a video which says on the back that Meat's the father of heavy metal or something like that.

This is the sort of question that a musicologist would be able to answer.

White of High · 20 Jul 2003, 11:31

Supposedly a man in the TV used this expression 'heavy metal' for Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love in 1973. But is Led Zeppelin metal? I think LZ's sound seems rock. Meat Loaf is another category.

evil nickname · 20 Jul 2003, 12:41

Deep Purple, Led Zep and Jimi Hendrix are the orginators of 'Heavy Metal'. That just about proves that the definition of 'Heavy Metal' has moved on since.

But Meat being Metal? I don't see it. Hard Rock at best on some tracks (Lemon, Everything Louder), but it's more plain ol' rock to me.

Rob The Badger · 20 Jul 2003, 18:40

Evil Nick is correct. Meat Loaf is Rock ´n´Roll. That´s it. Not rock opera, not metal and definately not punk.

Draven · 21 Jul 2003, 00:06

As a musician myself i would say that meat loaf is not metal, to me metal is the likes of iron maiden and black sabbath. I see meat loaf simply as good old rock n roll

Tim · 21 Jul 2003, 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by evil nickname

Deep Purple, Led Zep and Jimi Hendrix are the orginators of 'Heavy Metal'. That just about proves that the definition of 'Heavy Metal' has moved on since.

But Meat being Metal? I don't see it. Hard Rock at best on some tracks (Lemon, Everything Louder), but it's more plain ol' rock to me.

But... in some shops Meat Loaf is put in the Heavy Metal catagory.... strange..

What is a good definition of Metal or rock? Is there any?? Don't think really, cause it is close to each other. Heave Metal is something different. I mean.... see a clear different between them. Also between Blues and Rock.... etc...

White of High · 21 Jul 2003, 11:16

I think the metal has changed. I can believe Meat Loaf & Jim Steinman was the first but it's changed. At now the metal is Metallica. But I must agree with you, Tim! What is the metal? I think free, sex, power (like in rock 'n' roll) and humour (like Jim). I think the first opening of the metal's wings are in Rock Horror Show. Yes, I know it would perthaps musical or rocky but you can find these elements in the music of Richard O'Brien. Jim had other style and I know he didn't like RHS but you can find million similar things. Yes, I think RHS was the first but the metal is fulfilled at Meat Loaf & Jim Steinman...

evil nickname · 21 Jul 2003, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

But... in some shops Meat Loaf is put in the Heavy Metal catagory.... strange..

That only shows how much people in record-stores know about the music they sell.

But a definition? I don't know... as far as I know, rock and metal evolved from blues and jazz. It basically got louder and faster to "stop the audience from taking to another" (Sabbath) and "overcome our nerves" (Metallica).
Black Sabbath is one of the first, if not the first, band to play music which is called 'metal'. Although Tony Iommi, their guitarist, can be quoted to say: "In the beginning I was primarily influenced by old blues records. [...] But those were my first influences, and my first bands were straight blues bands."
Sabbath is heavy, but not quite fast. Bands like Motorhead and Metallica are so much faster, but they also have their distinctive sounds. None of them sound alike (that is, unless Metallica is covering 'em :)

Whole point? There are nowadays too much subforms of metal (heavy, power, speed, progressive, death, black, neo-classical, NWOBHM, gothic, ...) to make up an unified definition of what metal is. Just a matter of taste I guess... personally I wouldn't call Hendrix metal, but my knowledge of his work is very limited, so he could be.

I've got some mental pictures of which band should be called 'Heavy Metal' and which should be called 'Metal' or 'Rock' or "Prog Rock' or whatever. Call it what you think should do the trick. To quote Maiden on this: "All in your head, all in your mind, try to relate it" (-Virus, 1996)

I'll leave it with that for now, maybe later I'll have something interesting to say. For now: breakfast! :)

evil nickname · 21 Jul 2003, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by White of High (numbers added by Evil Nickname)

[1] I think the metal has changed.
[2] I can believe Meat Loaf & Jim Steinman was the first but it's changed.
[3] At now the metal is Metallica.
But I must agree with you, Tim! What is the metal?
[4]I think free, sex, power (like in rock 'n' roll) and humour (like Jim).
[5] I think the first opening of the metal's wings are in Rock Horror Show.
[6] Yes, I know it would perthaps musical or rocky but you can find these elements in the music of Richard O'Brien.
Jim had other style and I know he didn't like RHS but you can find million similar things. Yes, I think RHS was the first but the metal is fulfilled at Meat Loaf & Jim Steinman...

White, I disagree with most of what you said here:
1. Ok, metal has changed, I've said that before.
2. To me, Jim and Meat were never metal. Hard rock on some tracks at best, but never metal. Pianoballads like Heaven Can Wait, FCOL and Objects are not metal.
3. Metallica has been metal since their debut in '83, and although they've had some dramatical style-changes (Kill 'Em All, Ride The Lightning, Master of Puppets, And Justice For All --> Black Album --> Load, Reload --> St. Anger) they're still metal today. Not my favorite kind, but still metal.
4. Metal is mostly the attitude that comes with it. I think themes like freedom/rebellion, sex, drugs and rock n' roll are connected with it, but I don't think that humor is metal. I can't for the love of god come up with humorous metal-bands. There are bands who take the whole metal-thing over the top (Spinal Tap, Manowar, Saxon to some extend) which makes it kinda funny in a sad way. Be tr00 or die!
5. RHS: around 1974 (don't know for sure when it was written). Black Sabbath (which are reffered to as the 'Fathers of Metal' released their first album in 1970, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix even before that. So RHS can't be the fisrt 'metal' outting, and besides:
6. And with this I disagree the most: The Rocky Horror (Picture) Show is not metal. Never was, never will be. Maybe there are some metal-influences in O'Brien's style, but is rock. I don't know how you came up with this, but it just doesn't make sense.

My €0.02

Oriel · 21 Jul 2003, 19:05

The only bit of "Heavy Metal" that Meat did was "heavy".

Evan · 21 Jul 2003, 19:23

I think that "Bat" can be considered metal for the time that it was released. I mean, disco ruled the air waves and then here comes this wagnerian opera album, but definately metal from the opening guitars on "Bat Out Of Hell" the song. I think it's sensetive metal. But the only real metal song I see is "Bat Out Of Hell", I mean it's a very eccentric record. I think the songs on "Bad For Good" could've suited the metal category better but Jimmy didn't really display a metal type of voice, had Meat sung them it could've been metal, Jimmy is strictly theatrical. Now though, when ever I think of Meat and Jimmy, usually hard rock and theatrical rock comes to mind, not metal.

20 Jul 2003, 00:51	#1
White of High Nature's Siegfried Join Date: 27.05.2002 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 2,930	Is it true? Was Meat Loaf the first punk & metal singer? Well, you can read it in some rock-encyclopedia. At first Meat Loaf & Jim Steinman did metal and punk. I'd like to know what is your opinion about it. Was Meat Loaf the first or others?

20 Jul 2003, 03:43	#2
The Flying Mouse Armed ba$tard and Jo's other half. Join Date: 06.08.2002 Location: In the middle of nowhere near the end of the line. Posts: 16,104	I maintain that Meat & Jimmy invented Metal . Metal has changed a lot over the last 25 years.Metal is invented.The next guy goes that little bit louder and faster.So does the next guy.After 25 years of people going louder and faster,it is inevitable that Metal will sound a lot different than how it started out. As for punk,that's a completly different thing. According to the new album,Meat used to be a man of steel.But he'll be the godfather of Metal forever

20 Jul 2003, 05:15	#3
Shane Super Loafer Join Date: 30.04.2002 Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand (GMT+12) Posts: 608	I haven't seen any evidence that Jim and Meat actually invented metal. However, I have a video which says on the back that Meat's the father of heavy metal or something like that. This is the sort of question that a musicologist would be able to answer.

20 Jul 2003, 11:31	#4
White of High Nature's Siegfried Join Date: 27.05.2002 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 2,930	Supposedly a man in the TV used this expression 'heavy metal' for Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love in 1973. But is Led Zeppelin metal? I think LZ's sound seems rock. Meat Loaf is another category.

20 Jul 2003, 12:41	#5
evil nickname Guest Join Date: 19.04.2003 Posts: 2,238	Deep Purple, Led Zep and Jimi Hendrix are the orginators of 'Heavy Metal'. That just about proves that the definition of 'Heavy Metal' has moved on since. But Meat being Metal? I don't see it. Hard Rock at best on some tracks (Lemon, Everything Louder), but it's more plain ol' rock to me.

20 Jul 2003, 18:40	#6
Rob The Badger Too sexy for this post Join Date: 14.04.2002 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 2,895	Evil Nick is correct. Meat Loaf is Rock ´n´Roll. That´s it. Not rock opera, not metal and definately not punk.

21 Jul 2003, 00:06	#7
Draven Junior Loafer Join Date: 13.04.2003 Posts: 38	As a musician myself i would say that meat loaf is not metal, to me metal is the likes of iron maiden and black sabbath. I see meat loaf simply as good old rock n roll

21 Jul 2003, 11:16	#9
White of High Nature's Siegfried Join Date: 27.05.2002 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 2,930	I think the metal has changed. I can believe Meat Loaf & Jim Steinman was the first but it's changed. At now the metal is Metallica. But I must agree with you, Tim! What is the metal? I think free, sex, power (like in rock 'n' roll) and humour (like Jim). I think the first opening of the metal's wings are in Rock Horror Show. Yes, I know it would perthaps musical or rocky but you can find these elements in the music of Richard O'Brien. Jim had other style and I know he didn't like RHS but you can find million similar things. Yes, I think RHS was the first but the metal is fulfilled at Meat Loaf & Jim Steinman...

21 Jul 2003, 19:05	#12
Oriel Senior Loafer Join Date: 14.04.2003 Location: Ireland Posts: 161	The only bit of "Heavy Metal" that Meat did was "heavy".

21 Jul 2003, 19:23	#13
Evan Super Loafer Join Date: 03.07.2003 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 216	I think that "Bat" can be considered metal for the time that it was released. I mean, disco ruled the air waves and then here comes this wagnerian opera album, but definately metal from the opening guitars on "Bat Out Of Hell" the song. I think it's sensetive metal. But the only real metal song I see is "Bat Out Of Hell", I mean it's a very eccentric record. I think the songs on "Bad For Good" could've suited the metal category better but Jimmy didn't really display a metal type of voice, had Meat sung them it could've been metal, Jimmy is strictly theatrical. Now though, when ever I think of Meat and Jimmy, usually hard rock and theatrical rock comes to mind, not metal.