The F Word In Like A Rose

[Wario]

Since the Leno topic is now closed and its a great topic to debate, why dont I just give birth to this?

My View from the Leno Thread:

Originally Posted by WarioLoaf

The F words the F word.

Musically it works. If it said "Screw you when your low" then it wouldn't have that pizazz

hes always had a potty mouth Live, why not for just two songs in the studio

Whats your take on the F word?

[LucyK!]

I quite like it

It's definitely not what I'd expect from Meat lyrics (if you consider "proper" Meat lyrics to be Steinman style) but if every song had lyrics I expected then I probably wouldn't listen to them.

Swearing in general doesn't bother me too much in songs, my opinion on it tends to be based on the context in which the language is used, and to be honest in the context of Like A Rose I think it's great, really edgy and you really get an impression of the woman in the song...of all the times I've heard Meat use "bad" language (which is a lot!!) I'd say Like A Rose is the case in which it's most effective.

[RadioMaster]

I dont give a f*ck

[Cherry.Loaf]

I don't mind swearing as long as it works for the song (Which in those cases it does) and it isn't just snuck in to shock people which is one of my pet peeves. I think it works for the song as well as the character of Patrick

[mtaylor315]

Yeah I have to agree with others who have posted, if it works within the song and isn't simply thrown in with no reason, then i dont really see it has a problem!

I think the swearing in 'Like a Rose' is well placed - actually helps the song in my opinion

Mike.

[suzieq]

So I think people have an aversion to the F bomb used in the verb sense vs. an adjective. I don't think it is lazy writing unless it's used as an adjective over and over in a song (there are some rap songs where it's the only clear word in the song and you can't understand the rest of it). But it's placement in LAR is blunt and packs a punch to it. I like it. I have no problem with Meat singing it.

[carole]

Gee, I'm surprised it took this long for a poll to be started on this topic. As a rule I don't usually like swearing in songs, but I agree with the others, in this song I think it works, especially in the context of Patrick saying it. He's been singing the line 'you can shove it up your arse' in Lemon for years, and I don't remember anyone jumping up and down in outrage over that.

Carole

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by carole

I think it works, especially in the context of Patrick saying it.

I doubt that the guys who wrote it had ever heard of Patrick so how can it work in that context?

Originally Posted by carole

He's been singing the line 'you can shove it up your arse' in Lemon for years, and I don't remember anyone jumping up and down in outrage over that.

I assume it's not the use of the word itself but more the fact that you get "fück" and "dick", the rather simple songwriting on some HCTB songs (if you compare it to Steinman, for example) and the fact that Meat "plays" a young chap that appears like a desperate attempt to appear "hip" to some people. Considering that some people not only dislike it but even seem to get pretty angry about it, I don't know if that was such a clever idea...

I'm not bothered by the "fück" in Like A Rose but I don't consider it great songwriting either. If the song at least told a great story... Using "offensive" language isn't art, it kind of reminds me of conversations you overhear when using public transportation or go shopping at a discounter. I appreciate songwriters who are very skilled at working with language and who know more than one ("explicit") way to express something.

[carole]

[QUOTE=Sarge;526192]I doubt that the guys who wrote it had ever heard of Patrick so how can it work in that context?
QUOTE]

I'm sure I remember Meat saying in interviews about the album when it came out, that he gave the songwriters a brief outline of the concept of what he wanted for the album.

Carole

[JaysScout]

No Problem WHATSOEVER! It works.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by carole

I'm sure I remember Meat saying in interviews about the album when it came out, that he gave the songwriters a brief outline of the concept of what he wanted for the album.

Most songs on the album obviously existed before the "concept" and I doubt that the songwriters thought "oh, we have to include a F word because that could work well in the Patrick story".

[Monstro]

I think these lyrics are just somewhat "rawer" than the Steinman ones quoted, different way of writing, different style, probably a bit unfair to compare them (though understandable). I don't have a problem with them, have a problem with LAR as I think the arrangement goes rapidly downhill after the first verse but think California is brilliant.

[Rage Against]

Originally Posted by Sarge

I doubt that the guys who wrote it had ever heard of Patrick so how can it work in that context?



I assume it's not the use of the word itself but more the fact that you get "fück" and "dick", the rather simple songwriting on some HCTB songs (if you compare it to Steinman, for example) and the fact that Meat "plays" a young chap that appears like a desperate attempt to appear "hip" to some people. Considering that some people not only dislike it but even seem to get pretty angry about it, I don't know if that was such a clever idea...

I'm not bothered by the "fück" in Like A Rose but I don't consider it great songwriting either. If the song at least told a great story... Using "offensive" language isn't art, it kind of reminds me of conversations you overhear when using public transportation or go shopping at a discounter. I appreciate songwriters who are very skilled at working with language and who know more than one ("explicit") way to express something.

I don't think he's necessarily trying to be "hip", but I could be wrong. Meat Loaf cursing is not exactly a new thing. He's cursed at every concert I've been to (which does not bother me). If he was trying to appeal to a younger audience, wouldn't he have done more songs like Los Angeloser? I don't know the answer either, just speculating. I think cursing in songs is ok. When I think of the word f**k in a song, the first song that comes to mind is "It's Been Awhile" by Staind. In the end, if someone doesn't like it; they just shouldn't listen to it and if someone does like it, listen away!!

[Sarge]

Swearing / using explicit language on stage during a complex and theater play like song like Paradise or a "conversation" with the audience is different to doing it on an album, on songs in which emphasis seems to be put on words like "fück", "dick", "bitch"... These words weren't an essential part of Meat Loaf albums before and I can understand why some long-time fans have issues with that.

[suzieq]

BUT when Meat uses explicit language on stage he gets a good rise from the audience as well as laughter at times. These words are used in the song to be grungy and dirty, not to be "hip". It just sounds like certain folk want more of the same Meat Loaf of albums past. He's moved on from that style for now. It's not your cup of tea, we get it, he gets it....it doesn't mean he's going to change his style for some disgruntled old timer fans.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by suzieq

BUT when Meat uses explicit language on stage he gets a good rise from the audience as well as laughter at times.

The "fück" in Like A Rose has a totally different intention than the "fück" he uses on stage as part of a performance. That's what I was trying to point out. It's two different things.

Originally Posted by carole

He's moved on from that style for now.

Trying new things is a good thing but the use of words like "fück" in lyrics is getting old. It might be new for Meat but it has been done to death in rock, pop and rap already. It's as "shocking" as his twinkling skull jacket. With regard to the comments I heard from some fans, they rather seem to consider it annoying than offensive. I think they don't have have that much an issue with the language in general, they rather seem to think that Meat doesn't differ that much from other artists anymore by doing something that others have done before and that anybody could do.

Originally Posted by carole

I think it works, especially in the context of Patrick saying it.

Originally Posted by Sarge

Using "offensive" language isn't art, it kind of reminds me of conversations you overhear when using public transportation or go shopping at a discounter.

Originally Posted by suzieq

These words are used in the song to be grungy and dirty

I just identified one major reason why I dislike Patrick that much, LOL. The guy is too ordinary, too commonplace, he doesn't have any special features, he's totally bland. Definitely no "rock & roll hero"...

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by suzieq

It's not your cup of tea, we get it, he gets it....it doesn't mean he's going to change his style for some disgruntled old timer fans.

You're so kind SuzieQ for calling me a "some disgruntled old timer fan", that is really nice of you. Those disgruntled old timer fans did help Meat Loaf get to where he is now. It's ironic to conclude that the attitude of some here and perhaps even Meat Loaf included on this matter is simply "well F*ck you if you don't like it"

Once again, the main point (which no-one except Sarge seems to be talking about, which is strange considering everyone thinks the lyrics are so great and "relevant" -sigh) I was trying to get across is that I think there is a difference between Meat cracking jokes; saying "F*ck you" to Patti at the end of Paradise, "F*ck it" occasionally etc and singing lyrics such as "And f*ck you when she's done". Using the word F*ck to describe sex is completely different than using it as an insult.

I do not believe that Meat resorting to this kind of language; mostly trying to shock is the only alternative than songs sounding like old timer Steinman ones. I think that is a rather absurd conclusion.

Seeing a "Fan" campaign trying to get the one song I find the most annoying to get to chart really disappoints me as I simply do not think it is a good representation of what Meat Loaf is all about. This song all seemed about shock or trying to be hip/cool whatever; yeah we will get Jack Black on this, make it the shortest song on the record and throw a "f*ck you when she's done" in there. Keep on blaming the record companies for low sales, keep calling me disgruntled, old timer all you want but I do not think this is right, it is not helping Meat and his image in my opinion and it is simply not "music" I want to listen to any more. I care enough about everything that has gone before to try to explain myself, if that makes you hate me or my opinions, so be it.

[Wario]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

if that makes you hate me or my opinions, so be it.

nobody hates you. As this thread proved people are divided on LAR. whether you like it or hate it this sucker still exists.

Your opinion is understanble, just like some people loathe California, cant stand Masculine, are anti-Dead Ringer For Love, or think DYELS is a load of shit.

Its opinion. I like the song you dont. who is wrong? Noone. cause thats why we are human. we are different.

[gizmo10395]

people... calm the fuc, ok so i wont go there. but i do think that we should all calm down, i love to listen to ML sing his heart out full of emotion. that emotioion might be deep rooted and heart felt but by the same token that emotion might be construed as a sudden outburst in which swearing is the only effective way to get your emotions across. i for one do not think that the use of the word f@ck in LAR is lazy songwriting. in that particular track & in the concept of the song I think it was needed. i think it was stephen fry who said that there is an art to swearing & only because people who do not understand the art & who in turn use swearing to cover up their lack of language, then they diluite the importance of swearing. words like f@ck appear in recognised dictionaries across the land. it is a widely used word that covers a wide range of emotions : shock, laughter, anger, sex... i believe that used in the correct context it is not only acceptable but also justified. IMHO... take care xx

[carole]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

You're so kind SuzieQ for calling me a "some disgruntled old timer fan", that is really nice of you. Those disgruntled old timer fans did help Meat Loaf get to where he is now. It's ironic to conclude that the attitude of some here and perhaps even Meat Loaf included on this matter is simply "well F*ck you if you don't like it"

Once again, the main point (which no-one except Sarge seems to be talking about, which is strange considering everyone thinks the lyrics are so great and "relevant" -sigh) I was trying to get across is that I think there is a difference between Meat cracking jokes; saying "F*ck you" to Patti at the end of Paradise, "F*ck it" occasionally etc and singing lyrics such as "And f*ck you when she's done". Using the word F*ck to describe sex is completely different than using it as an insult.

I do not believe that Meat resorting to this kind of language; mostly trying to shock is the only alternative than songs sounding like old timer Steinman ones. I think that is a rather absurd conclusion.

Seeing a "Fan" campaign trying to get the one song I find the most annoying to get to chart really disappoints me as I simply do not think it is a good representation of what Meat Loaf is all about. This song all seemed about shock or trying to be hip/cool whatever; yeah we will get Jack Black on this, make it the shortest song on the record and throw a "f*ck you when she's done" in there. Keep on blaming the record companies for low sales, keep calling me disgruntled, old timer all you want but I do not think this is right, it is not helping Meat and his image in my opinion and it is simply not "music" I want to listen to any more. I care enough about everything that has gone before to try to explain myself, if that makes you hate me or my opinions, so be it.

Well, I'm one of those 'old-timers' too, and I don't take offence at what Suzie has said. Meat said in an interview once, if ever he becomes hip to get a gun and shoot him, so he is definitely not trying to be hip. And he has also stated that it was Jack Black who approached him.

Carole

[Sarge]

Watch these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GezFdUJY5MI

Now imagine Meat singing that song live in his "Elton John suit". Do you see what the problem is?

[Elijah's way]

I don't get why the word f@ck offends anyone when Jim said God·damn and Meat said Ass on Bat 2. Why was there not a big fuss over that??

[Sarge]

Has been explained already. There is cursing and there is the use of blunt or dirty language to describe something, e.g. an action or a body part. "Shove it up your ass" on Lemon is not to be taken literally (you actually can't shove your future up your ass), while "fück you when she's done" or "I can barely fit my dick in my pants" are. It's easy (and often unimaginative) to say "fück", everybody can do that, but it takes some skills to paraphrase "fück" in a clever, interesting way.

[CarylB]

I agree with gizmo; emotion may be wrested from deep emotions, or just a sudden outburst in language in current use. And yes, It was Stephen Fry who said it became artless when it was used merely as a word peppered throughout conversation due to peole's lack of breadth in language. To me it works in LAR and is perfectly justified. We all put our own interpretation on lyrics .. I hear it as "screw you over" .. which I don't take to mean the act of sex itself, but hear it as it's used in every day adult parlance now ..

In the same way I think the phrase in California works perfectly too. It's vivid, basic, the kind of phrase I've heard men use when they're talking about their purely physical reaction of being turned on. The character isn't singing to a woman he loves deeply; it's not meant to be a FCOL to a woman who's meant the world to him .. he's singing to a hooker with all the raw sexuality that implies; not with love, reverence, appreciation of the woman as a person, but based purely on his basic sexual urge. Again, it works to me. As Gizmo said, acceptable, justified and fit in the context.

As far as LAR being chosen as the fan single .. just to remind that it was chosen by the majority of fans here who voted. And yes, it may well take skill to paraphrase "fück" in a clever, interesting way, but LAR is a punchy song and I don't thin it was necessary to do so. You might well say the same about the phrase in California, but again .. would a young soldier who thinks he's dying on a battlefield be likely to do that? And for whatever reason the lyricist wrote the words, that's the reason Meat decided that yes, he could sing the phrase.

Caryl

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by CarylB

would a young soldier who thinks he's dying on a battlefield be likely to do that?

Take Patrick out of the equation and just view them as songs and does anyone's view change?