Editing of posts by Mods

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I'm a bit lost here. Your suggestions started a similar thread yesterday, yet you made no attempt to discuss the replies Matt. Then when on this thread somebody makes the observation "In fact the owners can do what the hell they want really as long as they don't bully anyone. It is entirely funded by them and can thus be controlled by them. There is nothing that states this is a full democracy or that it requires to be that." you seem to go off on one. No-one has accused you of trying to dictate .. and I'm not sure why you're suddenly seeming to defend yourself against "finger pointing".

Just because some feel the system works pretty well most of the time, that there are pretty clear rules of engagement we should all be aware of, and that it's acceptable for moderators to enforce this by way of editing/removal (and you can always appeal via PM) why do you feel peeved, or it would seem attacked in some way? Not all agree with your proposals, that's all.

The current situation isn't an every day one .. it's not unique, but events were almost guaranteed to create a furore. The moderators will simply do their best to deal with it as it unfolds .. and are.

A couple points on this to respond to:

1) I was working all day yesterday, and didn't get a chance to discuss the replies then. Today I have more time to do so. The entire purpose of the thread is to discuss and come up with a solution as a team, if and only if, the people want a solution.

2)The observation that I responded to as finger pointing was that, somewhere in what I wrote, I think It sounded to Andrew like I was trying to dictate a rule change. Actually, it wasn't finger pointing, it was probably a combination of the way I wrote things, and the way he reacted. All good . I apologise for saying that, but I also hope that anyone reading what I wrote knows that there is no point to this thread unless it is a wide open, as wide as the sky, discussion. Any one user trying to dictate what must happen is acting against the good of the user base, and is disrespectful to all the hard work our mods do for us. If this thread ever BECOMES someone dictating to others what MUST be done, I would only hope that this thread is shut down as it's purpose has gone the way of the dinosaurs :/

3) a) Totally agreed Caryl. As I said in the first post, the mods are constantly putting out our fires, and doing what I feel is an amazing job for each situation. They do what they can, and they do it well.
b) Feeling attacked because others feel the current system works may be something others have done, but it certainly is not what I am doing! And just for the record, I feel that the current system is great, except for the slicing and dicing of people's words, and the outfall of people feeling hurt by that. I feel there may be a way to avoid that in the future for the good of all of us And actually, I feel that the slicing and dicing has been necessary up until this point, because no better solution has worked. Perhaps as a team we can put our heads together and find something that works, through open discussion :)

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

I know it is "house rules" but free speech sure is a much easier way. Let people have their say. Nine out of ten forums I visit are totally gloves off and I have had my fair share of lumps, but it made me defend and argue my positions. Most posters here would not survive a single post on some boards I frequent.

Yeah, that's a totally separate avenue that could totally work. My wife brought that up yesterday. Eg. on Facebook, everyone can say what they want. If you get a person who throws out insults and derails the comment thread, others will sometimes ignore them and just continue the discussion happily. Other things, people will argue or defend the thing in question. Eventually, no matter what thread it is, things peter off eventually. Is that possible here? No idea! lol

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by stretch37

A couple points on this to respond to:

1) I was working all day yesterday, and didn't get a chance to discuss the replies then. Today I have more time to do so. The entire purpose of the thread is to discuss and come up with a solution as a team, if and only if, the people want a solution.

To be honest I think from reading the two threads, not that many feel there is a problem requiring a solution.

I feel that the current system is great, except for the slicing and dicing of people's words)

I think that's generally not a big issue .. certainly not as obvious as with the thread that occasioned this one. I really don't see it makes sense to forge a new system for the forum because very occasionally a thread gets out of control and is admittedly rather savagely pruned. Problems with the unusual shouldn't imo necessitate you change the way you manage the norm.

Originally Posted by stretch37

Yeah, that's a totally separate avenue that could totally work. My wife brought that up yesterday. Eg. on Facebook, everyone can say what they want.

Personally I thank a merciful God that this isn't Facebook, nor is it unmanaged like Facebook.

[duke knooby]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Personally I thank a merciful God that this isn't Facebook

me TOO

[Evil One]

Unmanaged is fine in theory, but there is a certain other forum that took this to the other extreme. A couple of nutters were allowed to constantly spam the board with shit and it ruined it for everyone else.

[Wario]

Originally Posted by Evil One

Unmanaged is fine in theory, but there is a certain other forum that took this to the other extreme. A couple of nutters were allowed to constantly spam the board with shit and it ruined it for everyone else.

Spam and nutters delete and edit the shit shit outta them.
But to go in and butcher a thread of loyal users who ar shaving a harmless argument is kookoo

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Wario

Spam and nutters delete and edit the shit shit outta them.
But to go in and butcher a thread of loyal users who ar shaving a harmless argument is kookoo

Only thing I'd say Warrio is that this was an exceptional situation/thread .. and I'm not sure I'd describe it as a "harmless argument" .. whether it was had or shaved .. love that Freudian slip It wasn't typical, dear Jesus let it not be repeated too often, and for all it ended up looking odd, it can't have been an easy task. No-one has been seriously injured as a result imo. A number of my posts were edited ... I can live OK with that. One didn't make sense, I sent a PM, and it was corrected.

Mostly I think the mods can edit and check to make sure inconsistencies don't follow, because they are dealing with a few posts. This was a whole thread and to do it perfectly would have taken far, far more time than would be fair. Should it then have been left? Possibly, I don't know. Should the same kind of thing happen again, they may decide to take a different tack.

But this one has been done, and I don't think it makes sense to change a system that basically works pretty well because of it. It is what it is, and to me it's small in the scheme of things. I have survived far worse nightmares

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Only thing I'd say Warrio is that this was an exceptional situation/thread .. and I'm not sure I'd describe it as a "harmless argument" .. whether it was had or shaved .. love that Freudian slip It wasn't typical, dear Jesus let it not be repeated too often, and for all it ended up looking odd, it can't have been an easy task. No-one has been seriously injured as a result imo. A number of my posts were edited ... I can live OK with that. One didn't make sense, I sent a PM, and it was corrected.

Mostly I think the mods can edit and check to make sure inconsistencies don't follow, because they are dealing with a few posts. This was a whole thread and to do it perfectly would have taken far, far more time than would be fair. Should it then have been left? Possibly, I don't know. Should the same kind of thing happen again, they may decide to take a different tack.

But this one has been done, and I don't think it makes sense to change a system that basically works pretty well because of it. It is what it is, and to me it's small in the scheme of things. I have survived far worse nightmares

Yeah, that's a good point. A person can always PM a mod and ask for the change to be edited. The thing is, sometimes we are not even aware this has happened, and we come back later to see that our key point has been removed from the discussion. So perhaps some sort of system to indicate that a mod has edited a post, showing both the original post, and the edited version? This would be fairly easy to automate. Eg. A mod clicks "edit", modifies, and clicks save on a normal user role's post, and the user is emailed with the original post, and the edited post, and a link to PM that mod with new wording.

I'm a programmer/web developer and I would happily implement upgrades on this site for free.

[CarylB]

I think some edits are accompanied by a PM !! Infraction points or even a brief holiday

But Matt, generally edits are made on abusive/rude posts, or to remove quotes from other sites, inappropriate links etc .. and noted as edited. These do not deserve negotiations, and don't change any key point in a discussion surely. Hurling some verbal abuse is hardly useful discussion, and when a quote or link is removed it's made clear. I really think the current thread which caused you to raise this is a big fat exception to the norm

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I think some edits are accompanied by a PM !! Infraction points or even a brief holiday

But Matt, generally edits are made on abusive/rude posts, or to remove quotes from other sites, inappropriate links etc .. and noted as edited. These do not deserve negotiations, and don't change any key point in a discussion surely. Hurling some verbal abuse is hardly useful discussion, and when a quote or link is removed it's made clear. I really think the current thread which caused you to raise this is a big fat exception to the norm

Yeah, when the edits are made on abusive posts, inappropriate links, etc, I think those are ok in extreme cases. In those cases, Hell yes, the person does not deserve negotiations. If they are not outright banned for being abusive, then they are free to re-post on the thread in a more civil way. The current system for this works great I may or may not have personal experience with the matter

The current thread that's the exception has happened before though, many times I think? From people responding to Meat disliking Bat 3, to reviews of shows/tours, to the infamous Meat Chart campaign, to album releases, to when Meat posts something with his heart on his sleeve randomly, to the Meat/Jim argument, and the list goes on The apply named "spiral thread" seems to have made a fairly regular appearance over the last ~5 years...So often that it has acquired its own title :P :P Although it has happened less since Meat decided to retire from touring. I think, like any tragic loss, it brought everyone a little closer on here. Something which has been great to witness. Certainly if it continues to happen very seldom as it has the last 6 months, I really see no reason to go to work fixing a system that works most of the time. But now that we know Meat is likely going to remain an active live performer and recording artist, I think the discussion is still worthwhile. If past patterns hold true, we may be faced with more users posts being edited more often due to heated discussion and the mods putting out the fires we create for them...I hope this doesn't happen, but if the frequency increases again, this discussion serves as a place to discuss what to do in those types of situations.

I think what it comes down to is what we as a community want. Once some time has elapsed, and this thread has either long died, or is still actively being discussed and has input from more of us, I think we'll be closer to the answer. As with any long-standing problem, I don't think there are any easy answers here. Perhaps down the road, someone (It won't be me :P) could make some sort of feedback poll if there is enough interest. If the thread dies and stays dead, then we have our answer there as well

[The Flying Mouse]

For anyone interested, here's a summary of the edit job from the dismissal thread, and reasons for those edits..........

9 posts were deleted because they were an argument weather this convo should be held on the forum (off topic).

6 posts were edited to delete content that was an argument weather this convo should be on the forum.

9 posts were deleted because they expressed angry speculation in a way that was unfair considering the lack of facts.

8 posts were edited for the same reason, or because they were direct replies to those posts.


4 Posts were deleted because it was posted by Meat at forum members in frustration (who thought better of it) or in reply to that posting.
1 post was edited to remove a reply.

1 Post was deleted because it was flaming toward other members (If you think what Meat said to mlukfc members was bad.......... )
2 replies to that post were deleted, 1 post was edited to delete the part that replied to that post.

4 posts were deleted or edited because they contained terms that were disrespectful to other users.

As there has been so much negative reaction to the edit job, and so many calls to just delete it, that's what i'm going to do.


If anybody thinks that any of the deleted material listed above was appropriate on the thread, I would respectfully disagree.

As I demonstrated on the other recent the thread concerning moderation, I believe it simply isn't practical to moderate just by PM'ing members to change their posts themselves.
By the time that member comes back and changes what they've written, half the forum have read and replied, and we have to sent out a whole new batch of PM's asking people to edit their replies, by which time more people have waded in, and on and on and on.

I believe that the only way to stop a mod editing/deleting your posts is to.....

Consider the know facts.

Be fair minded.

Find a way of posting your point of view that shows respect and consideration for the opinions and feelings of others........

........before you hit "Post Reply".

That is something that is in the hands and capabilities of each and very member of the forum.

[Yevonda]

To Neil,

The mods have a crazy job with trying to keep all of the posts respectful and dignified. You guys have to do what you feel is right.

Everyone at some time or another has posted out of haste or out of running on pure emotion and I am sure that is what has happened the last few days, from all of us!

I do not wish to have your job! Keep up the good work!!!

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

As I demonstrated on the other recent the thread concerning moderation, I believe it simply isn't practical to moderate just by PM'ing members to change their posts themselves.
By the time that member comes back and changes what they've written, half the forum have read and replied, and we have to sent out a whole new batch of PM's asking people to edit their replies, by which time more people have waded in, and on and on and on.

No, just PM'ing members on its own won't solve the problem. Locking threads will need to continue. Deleting things that are really bad will need to continue. But I still think a simple email system, after the thread is locked down, giving the user a chance to edit his or her own work directly after a sentence or paragraph is *altered* by the mod, and giving them a timeline to reword it in a more respectful manner would work wonders for reducing backlash regarding "taking a machete to the thread". The entire system is automated, creating very little extra work for mods, and at the same time, enforcing respectfulness with less backlash.

Deleting stuff without a PM sounds great for heat of the moment situations...as long as it doesn't remove/change a point someone is trying to get across.

Eg.

Famous Singer, you sounded great today!

~~~~ you! you didn't wave at me though you dick! :P

Till next time!
Matt

Could be altered like this without altering the meaning/changing context (no PM involved IMO):

Famous Singer, you sounded great today!

*defamatory remark removed by mods*

you didn't wave at me though! :P

Till next time!
Matt

The following is more of a case where I think an automated PM system would work great and cause less of the backlash we've seen this week from the culling of words from threads. While I think we as users need to do our part to ensure we are respectful, and govern ourselves before we hit reply, I've seen handfuls of us who are pretty shook up about their stuff being removed.

The Situation

Eg. "Sally insults Emanuel for the 5th time, without the use of swear words, deciding once again from cellphone video, shot at a school talent show and uploaded to facebook with terrible sound, that he can't whistle. Sally posted her thoughts, The mods haven't seen it yet, and Emanuel responds, understandably upset."

Sally:

Emanuel is so out of tune, and out of time. I had to stop listening almost right away....its time for him to think about retiring from talent shows I think...He's had a good run, but honestly for the past 5 times, he's been out of tune like this, and I just can't stand listening to him anymore...he's way past it...He sounded great in grade 5, but the last good 5 years he's just been out of tune and its embarassing.

Emanuel:

Sally-anne Parker, I'm sorry but you are flat out wrong, as always! You really don't know anything AT ALL about whistling!! That video was terrible quality, and I'm crying now thanks to you! HAPPY NOW ASSHOLE? Its people like you that remind me why I don't let others see me whistle! Why the ~~~~ do you ALWAYS have the nerve to come on here if you have no respect for me, knock my stuff, and make me upset when I am trying my best out there for you!? How about you take your judgy self, go learn the craft, and then try doing it in front of the whole school for 2 hours shit face and see how nervous you feel after!

CASE 1

The post is later edited by a mod:

Sally-anne Parker. That video was terrible quality, and I'm crying now thanks to you! Why do you come on here if you have no respect for me, knock my stuff, and make me upset when I am trying my best out there for you!? How about you go learn the craft, and then try doing it in front of the whole school for 2 hours and see how nervous you feel after!

Emanuel is shocked that his own words, written in self defence, were changed and outright removed with no explanation. Why was he disciplined this way, when the other person could have been far more polite in saying she didn't like his whistling. And, unbeknownst to the mods, he felt that she had been bullying him for years, so consistently and frankly that he finally got so upset that he stood up for himself and went a little over the top...He felt that his own self defence was silenced without explanation. He doesn't come back to the forums for 6 months.

CASE 2

With the edit-notifications in place, The mod edits the post in exactly the same way as Case 1. Only this time, when the mod clicks "save" on the edit post window after entering some basic instructions into a text box, an automated email goes out to Emanuel:

Dear Emanuel:
Your post has been edited because it did not follow our forum's posting guidelines (Please see them here). If you wish to re-write your own post, Please click the link below to obtain temporary edit privileges. These privileges will expire in 48 hours.

Reason:
I know you are upset, and understandably so, but our forum policy forbids the hurling of personal insults, curse words, etc. Please take a moment to cool off, and re-write your post in a way that gets your point across in a respectful manor. In the event that the post is not re-written respectfully, further discipline may occur as per forum policy.

Emanual realizes that he flew off the handle, and feels rather sheepish about letting that happen. He re-writes his post as follows:

Sally, once again I am upset that you have this opinion of me..The video was terrible quality, and those that were watching applauded loudly and I got mostly rave reviews. I'm not sure why you have to keep taking digs at me, but when you do, it makes me wonder why I perform ever! I feel that you really have no respect for my work. You consistently keep coming on here and knock it. If you don't like it, what's the harm in saying it politely? Its hard work going up there in front of everyone, try it some time!!!

Emanuel is still quite angry, and he knows he broke the rules, but he is glad he had a chance to re-write the post, and he'll think twice about breaking the rules next time...Far easier to just post rather than worry about receiving discipline. He notices that most others on the thread are quite respectful, and although some don't prefer his performance, other's love it. He starts to feel somewhat better, and knows that next time, as long as he remains respectful in the way he says things, he can say whatever he pleases in self defence without worrying that it will be deleted. He feels empowered enough that he PM's Sally and asks her to please be more kind if she doesn't like what he writes. She puts him down in a similar way 3 months later, and Emanuel PM's the same friendly mod, who decides to edit Sally's post and give her a chance to be more appropriate. Things begin to improve and Sally and Emanuel can now tolerate each other's company on the forums.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

I believe that the only way to stop a mod editing/deleting your posts is to.....

Consider the know facts.

Be fair minded.

Find a way of posting your point of view that shows respect and consideration for the opinions and feelings of others........

........before you hit "Post Reply".

That is something that is in the hands and capabilities of each and very member of the forum.

THIS.

[LucyK!]

I can't speak for others here but certainly when I said "just delete it" I meant that being the original moderating decision rather than a post-edit after thought... that thread continued and we've now lost the thoughts that Meat shared re the new show and where he plans to take it

Respect, rudeness, attacks...it's all subjective, what I find offensive the next person may not and so I appreciate it can be difficult to deal with "offensive posts" because not everyone is offended by them, but I really feel that threads just need to be allowed to run . Obviously there's the odd post that will be unacceptable without question, but this "cleaning up" of posts to make a new thread, to me, is daft.

Let's keep them open (we are all meant to be adults here after all) and if it really gets so bad then shut them.

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by LucyK!

that thread continued and we've now lost the thoughts that Meat shared re the new show and where he plans to take it

Indeed. Did you get a chainsaw for your birthday to go with your machete?

[Jules13]

Originally Posted by stretch37

No, just PM'ing members on its own won't solve the problem. Locking threads will need to continue.... (...)

What are you talking about?
Does somebody care about Sally and Emanuel?

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by stretch37

The current thread that's the exception has happened before though, many times I think?

Not in my view with the frequency you imply that would need the changes you're proposing in my view. One you list was the Single Campaign (nothing infamous about it imo), which was wholly different to this; others have been dealt with by the mods perfectly adequately. Passions run high at times on this board .. the very music we follow suggests this will happen. But it has imo been the exception, and even more so the past year.

I think what it comes down to is what we as a community want.

Perhaps the limited numbers of people replying on this thread are an indicator that most aren't looking for some overhaul .. and I refer you back to Andrew's comment on one of these 2 threads. It's owned by Rainer, we don't elect a governing body, and even if we did, most of those then decide what they'll do, not the electorate Management by poll is the last thing I'd llike to see introduced!

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

As I demonstrated on the other recent the thread concerning moderation, I believe it simply isn't practical to moderate just by PM'ing members to change their posts themselves.

I agree

I believe that the only way to stop a mod editing/deleting your posts is to.....
Consider the know facts.
Be fair minded.
Find a way of posting your point of view that shows respect and consideration for the opinions and feelings of others........
........before you hit "Post Reply".

That is something that is in the hands and capabilities of each and very member of the forum.

Yes

Originally Posted by LucyK!

I can't speak for others here but certainly when I said "just delete it" I meant that being the original moderating decision rather than a post-edit after thought... that thread continued and we've now lost the thoughts that Meat shared re the new show and where he plans to take it

It's removal is disappointing

Obviously there's the odd post that will be unacceptable without question, but this "cleaning up" of posts to make a new thread, to me, is daft.

Let's keep them open (we are all meant to be adults here after all) and if it really gets so bad then shut them.

Have to agree with this. To be honest I can't remember a time when a thread was so severely pruned. I think it's an exception. No disrespect to Mouse; I think it was an almost impossible task, and really didn't work. It happens.

But given the length of time it ran (very short really) any of the systems proposed in this thread simply wouldn't have worked. When things do get really out of hand it's probably better to simply shut a thread as you say .. until R can come in with one of his very to the point warnings .. experience suggests that does the trick

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Jules13

What are you talking about?
Does somebody care about Sally and Emanuel?

Honest answer? I didn't, not even enough to read through their problems ..sorry Matt, but there it is

[AndyK]

Off topic posts removed. As they were deemed inflammatory attempts at trolling. The authors know what they wrote, and if they'd care to propose a reword I'll consider reinstating and editing.

This thread is for the discussion of any possible ideas as to how to avoid in the future the situation that arose over the weekend resulting in the wholesale editing and subsequent closure and deletion of a thread.

It is NOT the place to raise the exact same issues that caused the thread in question to spiral out of control.

[Butcher King]

no offense but I'm exhausted after reading all of this.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by AndyK

Off topic posts removed. As they were deemed inflammatory attempts at trolling. The authors know what they wrote, and if they'd care to propose a reword I'll consider reinstating and editing.

This thread is for the discussion of any possible ideas as to how to avoid in the future the situation that arose over the weekend resulting in the wholesale editing and subsequent closure and deletion of a thread.

It is NOT the place to raise the exact same issues that caused the thread in question to spiral out of control.

May I ask which poster called others "really dumb people"? If the man himself says it direct to us is it not relevant and on-topic? Since this thread is about "possible ideas as to how to avoid in the future" may I then suggest that to avoid the problems happening again, that that incident needs to be part of the discussion?
Also, see my signature...

[MarkS]

And you seem to be ignoring the thread full of complete BS assumptions about the situation that led to the "really dumb" statement I think I'm starting to see really dumb people myself

It's amazing how so many of you instantly become innocent bystanders as soon as the shit inevitable hits the fan

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

Also, see my signature...

Saw that, thanks.

Maybe you might want to take the opportunity to remind yourself of the Forum Rules that you signed up to when you joined ...

http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by Wario

Exactly what Butcher said. Id like to add the disgusting editing that went on in the Termination thread.

I dont really understand definitions either. ive made some comments and I too have a different definition was inappropriate or whatever.

I can see editing personal attacks but when we are discussing PUBLIC FIGURES like Meat and Patti its opinion!

Bingo. Finally somebody gets it. We are discussing public figures who are directly related to the very board we are on and statements that both made in public, including one directed at this very board. I keep getting posts deleted for mentioning facts that were posted on this very board. I feel that when celebrities make public statements - on here no less- I don't get why that is not fair game.
Next time I stick my foot in my mouth hopefully my moderator team will clean it up for me.

[stretch37]

Can we merge this with the other thread? Eg. http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19335 I didn't realize until yesterday night that they're separate....But its the same conversation :P