You can't win an argument with facts

[robgomm]

Wasn't sure where to post this so here goes. Wasn't sure what to call the thread so please could the mods come up with a better title

Just had an argument with someone on another forum and it really annoyed the hell out of me. One thing that annoys me more than anything is when people try to argue with official facts and figures, like they don't believe them or they know better.

Basically he was slating Meat for the fact that he hadn't sold as many copies of HIAHB in the first week as HCTB. I pointed out to him that there were a lot of factors and reasons for this. The declining music industry as a whole, the staggered release of the album, subsequent piracy, lack of promotion in the way of billboards etc. I pointed out that with the exception of a few young trendy mainstream acts (Adele, Lady Gaga etc.) no one really sells that much any more.

This guy then proceeded to get really p**sy with me and told me to get my facts right and that Lady Gaga had sold more than Meat ever had and that the music industry market was booming, especially in singles.

The trouble was I HAD done my research. I discovered for example that Lady Gagas The Fame album was certified for 1.2-1.5m copies sold in the UK. That Bat was certified for 2.1-2.4m copies sold in the UK. If Lady Gaga is meant to be the more mainstream young and trendy popular act surely she should have sold more than Meat who is a niche market? Surely I said this shows that the music industry is on the way down? If that wasn't enough I did some further research and discovered a lot of more interesting facts. In 2003 the UK music industry in sales was worth 1.22bn, in 2011 that had fallen to just over 700m which is a huge decrease. Year on year the music industry announced sales were down overall. Yes digital sales and singles sales were up year after year, but not enough to replace the huge decline in physical sales. Also album sales were down because more people were buying more individual songs rather than albums, which explains the increase in singles sales. All of this was fact.

So what did the guy come back with? He said the official records were unreliable, and that his 'very own posters who have spent years tracking sales' have better information lol. He said I was obviously just trying to cover up for the fact that Meats doing terrible. They reckon for example that The Fame actually sold 2.8m.

In the end I just laughed at him and told him what a deluded moron he was, he preferred to believe his 'very own posters' than official stats.

I just can't believe how ignorant some people are. It's like denying things in history never happened. You can't argue with facts.

[nikox1]

bat out of hell has sold 3,038,000 copies in the UK, it should be 10 x platinum.
in 5 years time nobody will know most of the artists in the charts now
i am a member of many music forums and most of them talk shite!!!! dont even compare Meat with that like, he has a 40 year chart career, 12 uk top 10 albums, has sold over 10 million albums in the uk, and then worldwide he has sold 102,000,000 million records. but hey thats not many is it?,, HELL IN A HANDBASKET - is 19 in the midweeks, it got top 5 at the end of the day, with very little promo etc etc,, so on so on.

[nikox1]

plus selling a million copies of a song selling for just 69p is very easy imo. remember when it was 3 - 5 quid for a cd single? haha, now that was harder to sell a million.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by robgomm

In the end I just laughed at him ...

Best thing .. simply walk away. The internet is full of people who simply like to have a go at those who have had more success than they could dream of. You can fight City Hall, even win sometimes .. but the internet is full of people who have an axe to grind and will never back down. Those I find on the net who don't appreciate Meat and his achievements, both past and current ..I just think, their loss, and move on

I just can't believe how ignorant some people are. It's like denying things in history never happened. You can't argue with facts.

You can argue with facts you've selected, and people do all the time People use and manipulate stats to "prove" any case they want .. doesn't actually make the case right. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Caryl

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by robgomm

Wasn't sure where to post this so here goes. Wasn't sure what to call the thread so please could the mods come up with a better title

Done

Originally Posted by robgomm

Just had an argument with someone on another forum and it really annoyed the hell out of me. One thing that annoys me more than anything is when people try to argue with official facts and figures, like they don't believe them or they know better.

Welcome to the internet

Originally Posted by robgomm

Basically he was slating Meat for the fact that he hadn't sold as many copies of HIAHB in the first week as HCTB. I pointed out to him that there were a lot of factors and reasons for this. The declining music industry as a whole, the staggered release of the album, subsequent piracy, lack of promotion in the way of billboards etc. I pointed out that with the exception of a few young trendy mainstream acts (Adele, Lady Gaga etc.) no one really sells that much any more.

To be fair, the decline of the music industry, piracy, and lack of promo were all factors that effected HCTB, and it's hardly a long time since it was released.

But the staggered release may have been a factor. I really can't see how anybody at a record company thinks such a stategy could have any sort of payoff, especially in the world we live in now.

As for the mainstream acts (that, as you say, sell well) if Meat (the niche) is losing a lot of sales due to piracy, how many sales do you think they are losing?

Originally Posted by robgomm

This guy then proceeded to get really p**sy with me and told me to get my facts right and that Lady Gaga had sold more than Meat ever had and that the music industry market was booming, especially in singles.

He's wrong.

The mainstream albums will always sell, but booming is a bit of an exageration.
Especially in singles.
I'm still a fan of the single as a promo tool though. There's nothing else like it for getting the word out.

Originally Posted by robgomm

So what did the guy come back with? He said the official records were unreliable,

Don't tell me you spent much more time arguing with this doughnut

Originally Posted by robgomm

his 'very own posters who have spent years tracking sales' have better information lol.

No doubt while also posting songs, actors/acresses, and their favourite fruit and veg in alphabetical order

Originally Posted by robgomm

He said I was obviously just trying to cover up for the fact that Meats doing terrible.

I think he's done rather well myself.
He's an older artist, and one who is not in fashion, yet he's got to #5 on the first week of his albums release.
He's also done that with no single released, almost no promo, and a staggerd release meaning most casual fans have had the chance to illegally download the album for moths now.

Originally Posted by robgomm

In the end I just laughed at him and told him what a deluded moron he was,

I'm guessing it's not the first time he's been told that.

Originally Posted by robgomm

I just can't believe how ignorant some people are. It's like denying things in history never happened. You can't argue with facts.

Again, welcome to the internet

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by nikox1

bat out of hell has sold 3,038,000 copies in the UK, it should be 10 x platinum.
in 5 years time nobody will know most of the artists in the charts now
i am a member of many music forums and most of them talk shite!!!! dont even compare Meat with that like, he has a 40 year chart career, 12 uk top 10 albums, has sold over 10 million albums in the uk, and then worldwide he has sold 102,000,000 million records. but hey thats not many is it?,, HELL IN A HANDBASKET - is 19 in the midweeks, it got top 5 at the end of the day, with very little promo etc etc,, so on so on.

Thanks mods for changing the title.

I'm confused though. If Bat has sold 3m how come he's only certified by BPI for 2.1-2.4?

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by robgomm

Wasn't sure where to post this so here goes. Wasn't sure what to call the thread so please could the mods come up with a better title

Just had an argument with someone on another forum and it really annoyed the hell out of me. One thing that annoys me more than anything is when people try to argue with official facts and figures, like they don't believe them or they know better.

Basically he was slating Meat for the fact that he hadn't sold as many copies of HIAHB in the first week as HCTB. I pointed out to him that there were a lot of factors and reasons for this. The declining music industry as a whole, the staggered release of the album, subsequent piracy, lack of promotion in the way of billboards etc. I pointed out that with the exception of a few young trendy mainstream acts (Adele, Lady Gaga etc.) no one really sells that much any more.

This guy then proceeded to get really p**sy with me and told me to get my facts right and that Lady Gaga had sold more than Meat ever had and that the music industry market was booming, especially in singles.

The trouble was I HAD done my research. I discovered for example that Lady Gagas The Fame album was certified for 1.2-1.5m copies sold in the UK. That Bat was certified for 2.1-2.4m copies sold in the UK. If Lady Gaga is meant to be the more mainstream young and trendy popular act surely she should have sold more than Meat who is a niche market? Surely I said this shows that the music industry is on the way down? If that wasn't enough I did some further research and discovered a lot of more interesting facts. In 2003 the UK music industry in sales was worth 1.22bn, in 2011 that had fallen to just over 700m which is a huge decrease. Year on year the music industry announced sales were down overall. Yes digital sales and singles sales were up year after year, but not enough to replace the huge decline in physical sales. Also album sales were down because more people were buying more individual songs rather than albums, which explains the increase in singles sales. All of this was fact.

So what did the guy come back with? He said the official records were unreliable, and that his 'very own posters who have spent years tracking sales' have better information lol. He said I was obviously just trying to cover up for the fact that Meats doing terrible. They reckon for example that The Fame actually sold 2.8m.

In the end I just laughed at him and told him what a deluded moron he was, he preferred to believe his 'very own posters' than official stats.

I just can't believe how ignorant some people are. It's like denying things in history never happened. You can't argue with facts.

You aren't going to win anything, so try not to stress so much is my advice. It is just some idiot on the internet probably sitting in his mom's basement in his underwear. Fact is Lady GaGa sold "Born This Way" on Amazon with the whole album for the normal cost of one song. That negates the whole issue of her sales figures right there if you ask me. If Meat could get the same publicity for it as GaGa got I'm sure he could move millions of downloads of HIAHB at .99 cents per full album. I'm no GaGa fan but I figured for .99 cents why not? Lots of people would feel the same about a Meat Loaf album.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

You aren't going to win anything, so try not to stress so much is my advice. It is just some idiot on the internet probably sitting in his mom's basement in his underwear. Fact is Lady GaGa sold "Born This Way" on Amazon with the whole album for the normal cost of one song. That negates the whole issue of her sales figures right there if you ask me. If Meat could get the same publicity for it as GaGa got I'm sure he could move millions of downloads of HIAHB at .99 cents per full album. I'm no GaGa fan but I figured for .99 cents why not? Lots of people would feel the same about a Meat Loaf album.

That's very interesting. I didn't know that they were doing that, no wonder they were selling loads. I'd buy loads of albums at that price.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Done






Welcome to the internet





To be fair, the decline of the music industry, piracy, and lack of promo were all factors that effected HCTB, and it's hardly a long time since it was released.

But the staggered release may have been a factor. I really can't see how anybody at a record company thinks such a stategy could have any sort of payoff, especially in the world we live in now.

As for the mainstream acts (that, as you say, sell well) if Meat (the niche) is losing a lot of sales due to piracy, how many sales do you think they are losing?




He's wrong.

The mainstream albums will always sell, but booming is a bit of an exageration.
Especially in singles.
I'm still a fan of the single as a promo tool though. There's nothing else like it for getting the word out.





Don't tell me you spent much more time arguing with this doughnut



No doubt while also posting songs, actors/acresses, and their favourite fruit and veg in alphabetical order




I think he's done rather well myself.
He's an older artist, and one who is not in fashion, yet he's got to #5 on the first week of his albums release.
He's also done that with no single released, almost no promo, and a staggerd release meaning most casual fans have had the chance to illegally download the album for moths now.




I'm guessing it's not the first time he's been told that.




Again, welcome to the internet

Lol thanks for all that. Needed a laugh.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by nikox1

plus selling a million copies of a song selling for just 69p is very easy imo. remember when it was 3 - 5 quid for a cd single? haha, now that was harder to sell a million.

Another good point.

[Sarge]

Why does the title of this thread change every other minute?

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Why does the title of this thread change every other minute?

Because my original title was rubbish.

[duke knooby]

So, sticking to the facts... did hang cool sell more units than hell in a handbasket in it's first week? And what are the official numbers??

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by robgomm

That's very interesting. I didn't know that they were doing that, no wonder they were selling loads. I'd buy loads of albums at that price.

http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/indus...05212012.story

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/indus...05212012.story

That's incredible. No wonder she sold so much.

[duke knooby]

i'm quite laid back, so you're really gonna have to explain to me what got you so annoyed, cause i'm not quite following.

it's great you're defending meat, and passionate about him, and how he's perceived to be performing, but there's more to life than sales figures... Much more important is the album... did you love the album? if so result, thats the important bit!

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by duke knooby

i'm quite laid back, so you're really gonna have to explain to me what got you so annoyed, cause i'm not quite following.

it's great you're defending meat, and passionate about him, and how he's perceived to be performing, but there's more to life than sales figures... Much more important is the album... did you love the album? if so result, thats the important bit!

Yeah I know you're right. I just got annoyed because first they were having a go at Meat, and then they were arguing against true facts.

Anyway you're right.

[duke knooby]

believe me, i understand completely.. its so easy for people to try and knock others enthusiam (guilty sshhh)

so the mission i will give you is, take a different approach, see if you can get your "nemisis" to have a listen to handbasket, and get their feedback.

(my problem is i always deal with the facts, and my favourite statement when doing so... lets look at the evidence)

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by duke knooby

believe me, i understand completely.. its so easy for people to try and knock others enthusiam (guilty sshhh)

so the mission i will give you is, take a different approach, see if you can get your "nemisis" to have a listen to handbasket, and get their feedback.

(my problem is i always deal with the facts, and my favourite statement when doing so... lets look at the evidence)

Lol reminds me of through the keyhole.

Narr I won't be visiting that forum again as they are so deluded and only believe what they say.

[GDW]

Originally Posted by robgomm

Yeah I know you're right. I just got annoyed because first they were having a go at Meat, and then they were arguing against true facts.

Anyway you're right.

At least you were arguing over True Facts not Untrue Facts.

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Why does the title of this thread change every other minute?

Originally Posted by robgomm

Because my original title was rubbish.

Just out of curiosity, what was the original title?

[samurai7]

Originally Posted by GDW

At least you were arguing over True Facts not Untrue Facts.

...which wouldn't be facts at all then?

and as for the title, it's still misleading. You can win an argument with facts. In fact, most arguments are won with facts. It's harder to win an argument AGAINST facts though

[Kev]

2,813,479 that is how many copies of The Fame have sold as of Monday morning.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by Kev

2,813,479 that is how many copies of The Fame have sold as of Monday morning.

Again, how come it's only certified for 1.2?

[Kev]

Not sure where you've read that but I get updates every day with the job I do and my figures are the official sales figures. So... that was the figure and in this case the guy on the other forum was right.