The F Word In Like A Rose

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by CarylB

would a young soldier who thinks he's dying on a battlefield be likely to do that?

A song should speak for itself. I don't buy the Patrick story and I don't care about what he thinks, I don't listen to the songs that way. I would probably hate the album if I did. If you click the link I posted you might realize that the concept of Meat playing a young fellow who uses "explicit" language is not really convincing.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Evil One

Take Patrick out of the equation and just view them as songs and does anyone's view change?

Not really as far as I'm concerned. The songs don't offend me in the least. As I've said before I'm a follower of Meat .. I just enjoy hearing his voice and passion. An added bonus with Meat for me is you can actually HEAR the lyrics, and these are both fine by me.

However, I don't take the character out of the equation, or see the need to. It's an album with a strong storyline, and the character comes through the songs very strongly to me, which is generally the case for me anyway when I listen to Meat singing. And I mentioned it in regard to California because Meat said his initial reaction was "I can't sing that" .. but it was the context that persuaded him.

LAR is a catchy, up tempo and amusing song, and it worries me not in the least that the F word is used in the context I hear it in ... ie "screw you over"... and I find nothing whatsoever offensive about the phrase used in California either .. Perhaps a little (but not that much today) outrageous, but then that's what I enjoy about Meat. He doesn't just take easy listening options. It's in-your-face rock, and I love it

Caryl

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Sarge

A song should speak for itself. I don't buy the Patrick story and I don't care about what he thinks, I don't listen to the songs that way. I would probably hate the album if I did. If you click the link I posted you might realize that the concept of Meat playing a young fellow who uses "explicit" language is not really convincing.

I don't think it's about "buying" the story .. you make it sound as if Meat suddenly decided afterwards to invent one, and I think it's clear that he had this as the basis for his album.

As to your final point .. I'll leave aside your rather patronising "if you ... you might realise" comment. He convinces me. I did click the link. I am perfectly capable of seeing the point you infer, but I don't agree. I prefer Meat. He's a great actor, and I CAN hear the character he's created to inhabit the songs. He doesn't need to dress in shabby jeans and a vest. He creates the illusion with his total conviction in the song as far as I'm concerned .. and the jackets you often refer to as "Elton John" don't get in the way of that. To me they merely serve the purpose of making him visible from every point in the arena.

To me whether a song speaks for itself or not is not relevant I listen to them in the context off the album and Meat's delivery (although I personally find no problem with any of the songs on HCTB). The key point for me in regards to Meat is that he makes any song his own, fills it with life, gives it legs. I don't seek to separate him from the songs he records, or them from him. I just enjoy and rejoice in him bringing them to life for me.

Caryl

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by CarylB

And I mentioned it in regard to California because Meat said his initial reaction was "I can't sing that" .. but it was the context that persuaded him.

So who persuaded him then and why did he have to be persuaded? I thought it was him who had that great "concept" and directed the songwriters on what to contribute? Either you believe in the material or you don't - it rather sounds like an excuse to me. "Oh, actually I was reluctant to sing that word but I had to do it because of the concept."

Originally Posted by CarylB

To me whether a song speaks for itself or not is not relevant

So you actually think that the art of songwriting is not relevant? In this case Meat could sing the phonebook and you'd still praise it as a great story.

Originally Posted by CarylB

The key point for me in regards to Meat is that he makes any song his own, fills it with life, gives it legs.

No, in this case he decided to make it the songs of some fictitious chap. A chap that rather keeps the songs from walking than giving them legs and who has to serve as an excuse for "explicit" lyrics.

Originally Posted by CarylB

As to your final point .. I'll leave aside your rather patronising "if you ... you might realise" comment. He convinces me.

I think the song is okay but Meat does not convince me. Obviously you did not watch the video. It's not about "patronizing", it's about credibility. A bunch of tattooed young blokes in undershirts (who use that kind of language a lot in their music) performing that song is way more authentic than the "Pavarotti of Rock" doing it. If he really stood by the "new style" and those "raw", "explicit" songs, he would have changed his image accordingly so that it would match the music - instead of relying on Patrick. He hasn't, and that's why the "fücking" and struggeling with the "dick" (or is it just undersized pants? ) appear odd to some.

[CarylB]

Oh for heaven's sake. You choose to see what Meat said as "an excuse", I simply accepted what he said at the London Playback. He said we'd hear him use a phrase which might make us say "Did Meat Loaf sing that?" .. and that his initial reaction was "I can't sing that" .. but he had reasoned that it was a fit within the context. Any more you'll need to ask Meat not me. I'm not in the man's head, I just accept his explanation.

I said that to ME whether a song speaks for itself or not is not relevant and that I listen to them in the context off the album and Meat's delivery. That's MY perspective. Different to yours, but I am entitled to enjoy music any way I wish. The telephone directory is not a song. But yes, IMO any song Meat has sung, I can hear something in, and MY view is that he DOES give any song legs. "Fictitious" means created .. so of course Patrick is created, and that's my point. Meat creates a character for all the songs he sings, he's always said that. This time he shared that character with us. You don't like it, and clearly will never see it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist for Meat and for many others .. just that you don't, or don't want, to see it.

You say "Obviously you did not watch the video. It's not about "patronizing", it's about credibility." I was referring to your comment in your reply to me as being patronising, in that you were implying that if I'd only click the link you gave I'd "realise". Now you say I can't have watched the video when I've told you I did. I watched it and gave my reply. Just because I don't find your argument convincing to me doesn't mean I didn't bother to watch it, nor that I couldn't identify what you were driving at. I simply disagree. If Meat had dressed like the young men in the video there would have doubtless been negative comments from some about that. IMO he doesn't need to. His passion and delivery make the song work for me.

Caryl

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

You're so kind SuzieQ for calling me a "some disgruntled old timer fan", that is really nice of you. Those disgruntled old timer fans did help Meat Loaf get to where he is now. It's ironic to conclude that the attitude of some here and perhaps even Meat Loaf included on this matter is simply "well F*ck you if you don't like it"

Not sure why you are taking offense Andrew. It's a true statement. All old timer fans in general helped Meat Loaf get to where he is now. And as an artist he has elected to make HCTB which has left some disgruntled and some happy. The thing is the ones that became disgruntled have possibly realized that Meat isn't their cup of tea anymore. I think Meat's gotten all the memo's for those who didn't like HCTB or the songs particularly LAR and California. And yes, you may have to face the fact that Meat could possibly say "well F*ck you if you don't like it". Meat likes it, I think Meat has also got the memo's from the folks who love it and possibly, just possibly, there are more that love it than don't.

According to the poll above as of this time 0 people have voted No. 26 voted Yes and only 3 people voted they don't like the song. Now unless the disgruntled old timers have already jumped off the Meat Loaf train and no longer visit here because of their dislike of direction....this poll is not of the same opinion as yours Andrew.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Once again, the main point (which no-one except Sarge seems to be talking about, which is strange considering everyone thinks the lyrics are so great and "relevant" -sigh) I was trying to get across is that I think there is a difference between Meat cracking jokes; saying "F*ck you" to Patti at the end of Paradise, "F*ck it" occasionally etc and singing lyrics such as "And f*ck you when she's done". Using the word F*ck to describe sex is completely different than using it as an insult.

But again no one voted NO in the poll no matter what the usage. I honestly believe that the way Meat Loaf "used" the word would change your opinion. I think it's a cop out. I think people are shocked he used it at all and are appalled that he recorded it. That is my opinion. The same who dislike LAR also do not like the song and do not like the album. It's not their bag. And I get that...and respect it. Did he lose old timer fans in the process? Yes, I believe he did. Did he make other old timer fans happy in the process? Yes, he did. Did he gain new fans in the process? Yes, he did.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Seeing a "Fan" campaign trying to get the one song I find the most annoying to get to chart really disappoints me as I simply do not think it is a good representation of what Meat Loaf is all about. This song all seemed about shock or trying to be hip/cool whatever; yeah we will get Jack Black on this, make it the shortest song on the record and throw a "f*ck you when she's done" in there. Keep on blaming the record companies for low sales, keep calling me disgruntled, old timer all you want but I do not think this is right, it is not helping Meat and his image in my opinion and it is simply not "music" I want to listen to any more. I care enough about everything that has gone before to try to explain myself, if that makes you hate me or my opinions, so be it.

Thank you for your honest opinion, it doesn't make me hate you. Sorry the fan campaign song wasn't voted your way so you wouldn't be disappointed. BUT I suppose you could be disappointed in us all here for voting this way.

[Rage Against]

Originally Posted by suzieq

BUT when Meat uses explicit language on stage he gets a good rise from the audience as well as laughter at times. These words are used in the song to be grungy and dirty, not to be "hip". It just sounds like certain folk want more of the same Meat Loaf of albums past. He's moved on from that style for now. It's not your cup of tea, we get it, he gets it....it doesn't mean he's going to change his style for some disgruntled old timer fans.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

You're so kind SuzieQ for calling me a "some disgruntled old timer fan", that is really nice of you. Those disgruntled old timer fans did help Meat Loaf get to where he is now. It's ironic to conclude that the attitude of some here and perhaps even Meat Loaf included on this matter is simply "well F*ck you if you don't like it"

Once again, the main point (which no-one except Sarge seems to be talking about, which is strange considering everyone thinks the lyrics are so great and "relevant" -sigh) I was trying to get across is that I think there is a difference between Meat cracking jokes; saying "F*ck you" to Patti at the end of Paradise, "F*ck it" occasionally etc and singing lyrics such as "And f*ck you when she's done". Using the word F*ck to describe sex is completely different than using it as an insult.

I do not believe that Meat resorting to this kind of language; mostly trying to shock is the only alternative than songs sounding like old timer Steinman ones. I think that is a rather absurd conclusion.

Seeing a "Fan" campaign trying to get the one song I find the most annoying to get to chart really disappoints me as I simply do not think it is a good representation of what Meat Loaf is all about. This song all seemed about shock or trying to be hip/cool whatever; yeah we will get Jack Black on this, make it the shortest song on the record and throw a "f*ck you when she's done" in there. Keep on blaming the record companies for low sales, keep calling me disgruntled, old timer all you want but I do not think this is right, it is not helping Meat and his image in my opinion and it is simply not "music" I want to listen to any more. I care enough about everything that has gone before to try to explain myself, if that makes you hate me or my opinions, so be it.

Now I usually don't agree with some on this forum, but I'm not sure why you're taking offense. I don't see your name in the post.

As for the f**k word, isn't Paradise about a guy trying to f**k a woman in a car? The word isn't used, but we get the meaning behind the song. I know Jim Steinman didn't use the word, but what if he had? Would you give it a pass because it's a Steinman song or he'd use it more cleverly? Some people, by the way, take great offense at the words Hell, God damn and Ass no matter what way they are used. I think the point of Suzieq's post is that some Meat Loaf fans expect a Steinman written or Steinmanesque album everytime. They didn't get it with HCTB and that leaves them feeling like Meat Loaf is forgetting his original fan base. I think with some of the responses, some classic Meat Loaf fans like it, some don't. Everybody has a right to their opinion. If you don't like it, that's ok.

I haven't kept it a secret that I'm a huge Metallica fan. As I've said on many threads, I love their classic albums and some of their latest albums don't appeal to me as much. But I understand why their music has transformed over the years...out of need. If they had kept their hard thrash and speed metal edge, they may have gone the way of the dinosaurs. Their music has evolved to appeal to a new audience. That's ok. If their's something on a new album I don't like, I don't listen to it. Simple as that.

Here's what I think happened. The post did hit a nerve because you are a fan of Meat Loaf's classic albums and the cursing doesn't appeal to you. You're a passionate fan and feel strongly about this topic. That's ok. But, you get upset and post back. Take you first sentence out of your post and you make a valid point which some agree with. There was no need to take offense.

P.S. LAR was voted on and won. Somebody likes it.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I am entitled to enjoy music any way I wish.

Did I say that you aren't?

Originally Posted by CarylB

Meat creates a character for all the songs he sings, he's always said that.

Yeah, but I wish he had selected a more interesting character, one that suits him better.

Originally Posted by CarylB

This time he shared that character with us.

Unfortunately...

Originally Posted by CarylB

If Meat had dressed like the young men in the video there would have doubtless been negative comments from some about that.

I didn't say that he has to wear undershirts when performing but if you have a concept you consider that important it has to work on all levels. Do you think the suits he wears nowadays match the story and the lyrics? You can't sing "serious" songs, use "strong" language and talk about a severely wounded soldier all the time and look like that, sorry.

Originally Posted by CarylB

His passion and delivery make the song work for me.

That's the point, he is a good performer. That's why he actually neither needs Patrick nor emphatic "fücks" but that's just my opinion.

[duke knooby]

Originally Posted by Rage Against

I know Jim Steinman didn't use the word, but what if he had? Would you give it a pass because it's a Steinman song or he'd use it more cleverly?

those are excellent points...

would there be the same outrage/uproar had "who needs the young" been included on one of the earlier albums?

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Rage Against

As for the f**k word, isn't Paradise about a guy trying to f**k a woman in a car? The word isn't used, but we get the meaning behind the song.

That's what makes clever, exciting lyrics - the listener has the chance to explore and discover and understands what it is about although the lyrics aren't that "explicit". Steinman's songs are full of sex but he has a unique way of writing about it. He has the ability of wrapping even trivial matters in outstanding, distinctive lyrics.

[Rage Against]

Originally Posted by Sarge

That's what makes clever, exciting lyrics - the listener has the chance to explore and discover and understands what it is about although the lyrics aren't that "explicit". Steinman's songs are full of sex but he has a unique way of writing about it. He has the ability of wrapping even trivial matters in outstanding, distinctive lyrics.

I agree with you ( hold on let me mark this down in my calendar ). I think Jim Steinman is a genius. But is his use of God Damn clever, outstanding or distinctive? No. I don't take offense to it, but other's might. Why say God Damn in the first place? Is it for shock value? It doesn't add anything. I get that you don't like the use of the word f**k in the song. Some don't have a problem with it. I personally don't mind. I like the song. It's different and I believe that's wherein the problem lies.

[Rage Against]

Originally Posted by duke knooby

those are excellent points...

would there be the same outrage/uproar had "who needs the young" been included on one of the earlier albums?

Note to self, make another mark on my calendar.

[suzieq]

So about these jackets/suits: Meat has worn the Red and Blue jackets only in the Los Angeloser vid and the red one only in the back end of his live show. Current TV appearances he has on the black vest with the bling and I don't think this should be lumped into the Red and Blue jacket opinion. It's not like the man walks around in public with his stage persona on.

So let's be Meat's wardrobe coordinator now, what would you suggest he wear and when? Use paperdolls if you must.

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by suzieq

Did he lose old timer fans in the process? Yes, I believe he did. Did he make other old timer fans happy in the process? Yes, he did. Did he gain new fans in the process? Yes, he did.

Was the number of new fans greater than the number of alienated fans?

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by Evil One

Was the number of new fans greater than the number of alienated fans?

I believe the fans alienated would like to think no. It's a bit of an unknown but you knew that didn't you.

I think the alienated fans are a bit demanding often implying ... [You are going to lose what fan base you have left and not gain a single fan because of what you are trying and we don't like it, so go back to the songs/style we love because you need us attitude].

Maybe someday Meat will sing to your liking again. It's not out of the question, it just isn't now.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Rage Against

But is his use of God Damn clever, outstanding or distinctive? No.

Not necessarily, if you look at it seperately, but it works within the Steinman world. It's an expression of rebellion, of rock and roll life style, LAR is just a description of a relationship of two characters I don't care about, it neither conveys a feeling nor a message that appeals to me. Bat I and II are rock and roll phantasies, HCTB pretends to be realistic (aside from the life flashing forward thing and the various girls that are actually one and the same girl or whatever confusing story the "concept" is supposed to be based on). If you haven't heard about the Patrick story you probably don't know why the hell you are suddenly confronted with "fück" and the like.

Originally Posted by Rage Against

I get that you don't like the use of the word f**k in the song.

You either got me wrong or missed this:

Originally Posted by Sarge

I'm not bothered by the "fück" in Like A Rose but I don't consider it great songwriting either.

I tried to explain why some people hate it and why I don't think that Meat is very credible when singing such lyrics (or representing Patrick). That doesn't mean that I feel offended by it - I don't. I have to listen to much worse expressions every day. That's why it doesn't impress me at all, neither in a positive nor in a negative way. If Meat tried to do something special by saying "fück" on a record, he failed.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Sarge

I'm not bothered by the "fück" in Like A Rose but I don't consider it great songwriting either. If the song at least told a great story... Using "offensive" language isn't art, it kind of reminds me of conversations you overhear when using public transportation or go shopping at a discounter.

Well said, Sarge. And by using that word in the song that way, it kills any chance at all to get it heard on the radio or TV, unless you edit it, and as others have said, it's not the same song then, really.

Originally Posted by Sarge

I appreciate songwriters who are very skilled at working with language and who know more than one ("explicit") way to express something.

I'm going to use the example of Springsteen's Reno again- he manages to be much more explicit than LAR or California, yet the only "swear" word he uses is "ass". And while some people don't care for that song either (they can't get past the sexual images), he actually uses it as way to express some very deep feelings.

[Steve6]

When you have to resort to using bad language in songs, it shows you have a very limited vocabulary, and you're a poor lyricist.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by Steve6

When you have to resort to using bad language in songs, it shows you have a very limited vocabulary, and you're a poor lyricist.

Tell that to Eminem who seems to make it work real nicely for him and his bankroll. Again, people just have a problem with Meat Loaf using it.

[Evil One]

Two totally different styles of song.

[suzieq]

The word is used in the same way.

[AndrewG]

It's interesting as I actually think Eminem's latest album is better than HCTB, has more catchy songs, better chord progressions and great lyrics and I normally don't like his music at all. "Love the way you lie" is one of my favourite songs released this year.

Both songs have the F word in them btw.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I'm going to use the example of Springsteen's Reno again- he manages to be much more explicit than LAR or California, yet the only "swear" word he uses is "ass".

Unlike LAR or California, Reno is really deep, emotional and "shocking", just because of the way Springsteen describes what's going on - without having to use words like "fück" or "dick".

Originally Posted by suzieq

Tell that to Eminem who seems to make it work real nicely for him and his bankroll.

Eminem has always used "bad" language in his songs, it's part of his image and he has a totally different background and audience. If he had sung ballads like Anything before and all of a sudden switched to lyrics with F words your comparison would make sense.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Unlike LAR or California, Reno is really deep, emotional and "shocking", just because of the way Springsteen describes what's going on - without having to use words like "fück" or "dick".



Eminem has always used "bad" language in his songs, it's part of his image and he has a totally different background and audience. If he had sung ballads like Anything before and all of a sudden switched to lyrics with F words your comparison would make sense.

Indeed and this is why I think it's crazy for Meat to even think about using that language on the album. If he really wants to sell records then go back to making songs like AFL, if he wants to do his own thing (which is what it seems) and not care then indeed go ahead and do it. But don't give me this crap that it's the record company's fault for the albums and singles not selling well. This has a lot more to do with the change of content than most people seem to be admitting here.

[Wario]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

But don't give me this crap that it's the record company's fault for the albums and singles not selling well. This has a lot more to do with the change of content than most people seem to be admitting here.

it was their fault for not releasing LA and promoting it correctly

LAR has no one to blame but Jack and Meat's love to perform with eachother.

They both seemed to have fun rocking with each other. That song must've been a blast to record.

that's all that counts. Meat had fun making the track and Jack wanted to rock with Meat again. What was the harm? meats one of Jack's biggest influences and it was great for them to mix Tenacious D and Meat Loaf.

theirs always the skip button for people who hate the song or the word in question.

maybe this osng would be looked at differently with Kyle, Jack and Meat doing this as a threesome with meat guesting on a TD album instead.