Bad for Good

mszee · 15 Apr 2006, 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyK

If you buy nothing else this year, then buy Bad For Good ... you'll thank me ... honestly

Oh god...this is not a good album...I am so sorry...I was cringing all the way to the supermarket while I was listening to it...it was a good venue to listen to it...but it just is not good...And Surf's Up is Objects in a Rearview Mirror...how did I not notice it before? Maybe because I've listened to it a long time ago...but maybe because it was Meat Loaf...I used to have a tape and now waiting for a CD - takes forever to get it...

daveake · 15 Apr 2006, 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by mszee

And Surf's Up is Objects in a Rearview Mirror

Er, 'scuse me? They're nothing like each other, musically or in subject matter.

Dave

mszee · 15 Apr 2006, 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveake

Er, 'scuse me? They're nothing like each other, musically or in subject matter.

Dave

That's what I thought...listen to the Bad For Good version of the Surf's Up and then to Objects in a Rearview Mirror...subjects different...most of the music is the same...or almost the same...

daveake · 15 Apr 2006, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mszee

That's what I thought...listen to the Bad For Good version of the Surf's Up and then to Objects in a Rearview Mirror...subjects different...most of the music is the same...or almost the same...

I've listen to both many many times, and I've never ever thought they were the same. Your ears must be "special".

Dave

Bart · 15 Apr 2006, 23:54

Good old Dave is a little bit deaf cause he ofcourse he knows that the first two lines have the same melody

mszee · 15 Apr 2006, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

Good old Dave is a little bit deaf cause he ofcourse he knows that the first two lines have the same melody

Thank you...I am a bit long in a tooth...but I never thought that I am THAT deaf...and it's not just first two lines...if you listen very carefully...there is a whole lot more...

mszee · 15 Apr 2006, 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveake

I've listen to both many many times, and I've never ever thought they were the same. Your ears must be "special".

Dave

My ears are special...I have formal musical education...that is not to say that I am a great musician or anything remotely close...but I do hear...

Bart · 16 Apr 2006, 00:04

I am ugly as hell but my ears are good too

AndrewG · 16 Apr 2006, 00:36

Don't really understand what anybody is saying and more importantly why? but this may explain something about Steinman's similarity in songs. He re-uses chord progressions in many of his songs. In fact in the two songs mentioned he uses
"C - Am - F - G" a lot (just in different keys).
This progression can also be found in Anything for Love, Future ain't what it used to be, the musical part of Left in the Dark (in the middle) and Frying Pan.

Ross · 16 Apr 2006, 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musicman

Don't really understand what anybody is saying and more importantly why? but this may explain something about Steinman's similarity in songs. He re-uses chord progressions in many of his songs. In fact in the two songs mentioned he uses
"C - Am - F - G" a lot (just in different keys).
This progression can also be found in Anything for Love, Future ain't what it used to be, the musical part of Left in the Dark (in the middle) and Frying Pan.

The I - VI - IV - V chord progression (C Am F G in the Key of C) is the singularly most common chord progression in the entirety of Popular music. So it's not really a thing to single out Jim for using it a fair bit, it isn't really saying much. But I do agree he re-uses ideas, but I would say maybe more so lyrically than musically!!!

BAD FOR GOOD is a FANTASTIC album IMO. It is full of fantastic songs. Jim's voice, for me, took a bit of getting used to, but eventually I discovered I loved it, and I much prefer his version of Left In The Dark to Meats.

AndrewG · 16 Apr 2006, 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

The I - VI - IV - V chord progression (C Am F G in the Key of C) is the singularly most common chord progression in the entirety of Popular music. So it's not really a thing to single out Jim for using it a fair bit, it isn't really saying much.

I totally appreciate you are "defending Steinman" in a way and certainly on another message board where most people would probably not be so well informed about his music I would do the same. However I'm trying to explain why mszee thinks the two songs are similar. Surely the lyrics are not however a chord progression (especially reusing them in chorusses) are bloody important I think! (Indeed on these two songs that mszee points out there is also a melody that sounds similar). If you consider this list of songs:

Making Love out of Nothing at all
Anything for Love
Objects (similar melody on the chord progression)
Left in the Dark
Frying Pan
Surf's Up (similar melody on the chord progression)
Future ain't what it used to be (similar melody on the chord progression)
Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through

These songs already form a large part of Jim's more popular work imo and I really do think his use of that chord progression in these songs make them musically similar. I'm not having a go at Steinman regarding this, I just think it is a very important feature to distinguish his music (ie the lyrics/music force a 4 - 6 or 8 bar chorus or intro/outro thus this works out nicely) and cannot think of another song writer who has re-used this chord progression especially in chorusses so often. Funny thing is it started to appear on the Bad for Good album. I for one would have a hard time finding your so called "most commen chord progression in popular music" back in a lot of Bruce Springsteen songs for example and he has written around 300 or in Bob Dylan's repetoire for that matter.

Sure other composers have used this, it IS a popular progression and you are absolutely correct for pointing this out. But if you're gonna re-use it more frequently than others I think it will eventually stand out. Another simple change to it is changing the subdominant and dominant around. Again voila you would have a progression you will find in many songs.

However I would argue that the most popular chord progressions in popular music would be either the circle of fifts, derived from blues or a three chord song, not four chords (ie no minor chords ).

In Meat's non Steinman songs the chord progression we've discussed has not been used as much I believe. I argue that it is certainly a recurring feature in Steinman's long songs. Certainly for me I think typical Steinman when he uses this.

I'll give you an example:
during Meat's 2005 tour he played "Anything for Love" differently. They started with the D (x4) G A, bit (the loud intro), this lasted for around 4 repeats (unusually singing "I would do anything..." over it) then they replaced the third and fourth D chords for bm, obviously the main chorus and straight away I thought "Steinman" and worked really well (simple but effective).

Yes BFG is a cracker, I totally agree.

Ross · 16 Apr 2006, 11:03

You are right - Stienman does use it a lot. And it is great - it's not a critisism. I'm going to love her for both of has it at one point.

But I would still say it's the most common. No it's unlikely Bruce has used it much, because the proggresion is somewhat of a musical chlice (sp), his use of chords seems to be quite diverse.

It was most popular, I believe, in the kind of Rock and Roll era in the 50's. Three chord songs are quite popular, but to some extent they don't stand out so much because of the lack of different chords.

When you say Cicle of Fiths, do you mean an entire song based on the complete circe? Modulating every chord? I don't imagine that would work very well...

AndrewG · 16 Apr 2006, 11:09

Yeah that is one you find a lot in rock n roll, that's very true I think so also.

I think from my early days in music school I can remember circle of fifths chord progression (this determines the notes) fourths going upwards meaning I IV and IV of the IV scale (ie C, F, Bb for example), maybe I'm wrong here.

Probably adding the 7th on the dominant is actually much more popular (and what I meant at 4 in the morning) and derived from Blues, so it comes down to the popular three chords again really .

Ross · 16 Apr 2006, 14:40

Ah I think I know what you mean now - that progression would result in a modulation to the subdominant key. I thought you meant the entire cicle -
C G D A E B F# C#/Db Ab Eb Bb F - as a progression for an entire song! Which would sound a little unstable.

Yes the Dominant 7th chord is very common rather than just the dominant. I don't know much about blues, but the Dom. 7th chord has been a staple of Classical Harmony for centuries - so I wouldn't say it took it's roots solely from Blues.

Going back to the I VI IV V debate here is a list of songs off the top of my head that use it to a great extent

Stand By Me
Unchained Melody
I Will Always Love You
Every Breath You Take
Mandy
Goodbye My Lover (james Blunt)
King for a Day (Greenday)
Crocodile Rock (La Bit)
In My Secret Life & Alexandria Leaving (Leanord Cohen)
We Go Together from Grease (and several other songs from it too)

Ross · 16 Apr 2006, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by mszee

You know what...that was the problem I found with Bad for Good. Steinman has nice enough voice - not powerful but nice...but he doesn't feel his own lyrics or music......

Continued over here to stop Bat III going further off topic....!!!!

I have to totally disagree with this statement. I can understand criticism over the technical aspects of Jim's singing - but to say he doesn't feel it...

Listen to his Left In The Dark - Maybe not great singing, but he feels every word and note he is singing.

As a matter of opinion I much prefer Jim to Meat at that song!

But anyway, it is touching how moved you can be at Meat... I just think it is slightly unfair to say Jim doesn't feel. I understand if you don't like his singing, or the album or whatever. But Jim does Feel what he's singing!

**RadioMaster** · 16 Apr 2006, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross

Continued over here to stop Bat III going further off topic....!!!!

I have to totally disagree with this statement. I can understand criticism over the technical aspects of Jim's singing - but to say he doesn't feel it...

Listen to his Left In The Dark - Maybe not great singing, but he feels every word and note he is singing.

As a matter of opinion I much prefer Jim to Meat at that song!

But anyway, it is touching how moved you can be at Meat... I just think it is slightly unfair to say Jim doesn't feel. I understand if you don't like his singing, or the album or whatever. But Jim does Feel what he's singing!

I think i know what mszee ment:
Maybe jim feels the songs that he sings, but you don´t hear this feeling as much as you do with songs sung by Meat. That doesn´t say that he doesn´t feel while singing.

Ross · 16 Apr 2006, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiomaster

I think i know what mszee ment:
Maybe jim feels the songs that he sings, but you don´t hear this feeling as much as you do with songs sung by Meat. That doesn´t say that he doesn´t feel while singing.

Yes that makes sense.

I think the main difference is that Meat is just a fantastic singer - I think Jim puts almost (if not equally) as much emotion in - it's just that he can't sing very well.

Which ultimatly for some I think, results in a loss of the feeling and emotion behind Jim's own songs.

Like I said before about Left In The Dark... first time I heard Jim at it I thought it was horrible... but once I listened to it a few times and got used to the nuances of his voice.. I completely fell in love with his rendition of the track.

mszee · 16 Apr 2006, 21:22

Ok..you're both right...

I know for a fact that Jim Steinman feels...how else you can write lyrics like that? And yet I listened to the album and cringed...I believe that it was a struggle for him and his voice to just stay with the vocals of his songs...the instrumentals...never mind emoting...

When Meat Loaf sings those same songs...he just completely breaks my heart...again..maybe it's a fluke of my hearing...

And there is another thing...there is definitely something wrong with the production of this record...I definitely heard either bad guitars or bad guitar playing on the album...was cutting my ears off my head...and then I went and read the credits...oops...those are Meat Loaf's band musicians...there was definitely something wrong with this album technically...

mszee · 16 Apr 2006, 21:31

Ok...I am being extremely good and staying on the subject...

And I need help...

I am looking at the back picture of the Bad For Good album insert...picture of Jim Steinman...is it me or does it look like a Superman or some Super hero in any event???

daphne1024 · 16 Apr 2006, 22:36

I'm probably going to regret this but I feel compelled to defend Bad For Good. I really like this album. Jim doesn't have the best voice in the world but he does capably enough (better than Meat on Dead Ringer, I dare say) and the songs are great. I too really enjoy Left in the Dark, as well as Stark Raving Love, the title track, and others.

As for versions of Left in the Dark, there isn't an official version of my favorite - Rob Evan did it at the Over the Top show last January. I was never crazy about Meat's version (he sounds too angry) and after hearing Rob's version, Jim's sounded whinier than ever. Rob hit a middle ground that was just right.

Finally, in case I haven't said enough to get this post deleted, I've been listening to Bat II the last couple of days and, right now, I prefer BFG to it. It's excellent but, for some reason right now the songs just aren't doing it for me.

Attack at will.

Pudding · 16 Apr 2006, 22:56

Bad For Good is a great album, not many Meat Loaf fans successfully argue otherwise. Yes, Steinman's singing isn't fantastic, but overall it's a great album, with some great songs that Meat Loaf himself wanted to record for Bat2.

Surf's Up and Objects are sod all alike and despite what intro or outro Steinman uses, the songs are completely different. Surf's Up and Angel Arise are alike that's obvious. But to say Surf's Up and Objects are alike is the kind of nonsense I'd expect to hear from...well...Ryan. No offence to Ryan but he has a bit of a reputation of comparing songs in the most obscure fashion and picking up on 3 notes that sound the same and claiming blatant recycling by Steinman.

Pud

**RadioMaster** · 16 Apr 2006, 23:08

only one question:
Should i buy it?

And maybe another question:
I got a cd from a friend, where the cover with the names of the artists got lost. There is a song called "surf´s up tonight", is that the song You mentioned here?

R.

daveake · 16 Apr 2006, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiomaster

only one question:
Should i buy it?

Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiomaster

I got a cd from a friend, where the cover with the names of the artists got lost. There is a song called "surf´s up tonight", is that the song You mentioned here?

Nope. That's a different song, by Midnight Oil I believe.

Dave

**RadioMaster** · 16 Apr 2006, 23:23

sure Midnight Oil?
...cool

mszee · 17 Apr 2006, 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiomaster

only one question:
Should i buy it?

R.

I think you should at least listen to it to form your own opinion

16 Apr 2006, 11:09	#13
AndrewG I hope your salmon sucks! Join Date: 18.01.2004 Location: Northamptonshire Posts: 7,077	Yeah that is one you find a lot in rock n roll, that's very true I think so also. I think from my early days in music school I can remember circle of fifths chord progression (this determines the notes) fourths going upwards meaning I IV and IV of the IV scale (ie C, F, Bb for example), maybe I'm wrong here. Probably adding the 7th on the dominant is actually much more popular (and what I meant at 4 in the morning) and derived from Blues, so it comes down to the popular three chords again really . Last edited by AndrewG; 16 Apr 2006 at 11:39.

16 Apr 2006, 22:36	#20
daphne1024 Rookie Join Date: 15.04.2006 Posts: 1	Bad for Good I'm probably going to regret this but I feel compelled to defend Bad For Good. I really like this album. Jim doesn't have the best voice in the world but he does capably enough (better than Meat on Dead Ringer, I dare say) and the songs are great. I too really enjoy Left in the Dark, as well as Stark Raving Love, the title track, and others. As for versions of Left in the Dark, there isn't an official version of my favorite - Rob Evan did it at the Over the Top show last January. I was never crazy about Meat's version (he sounds too angry) and after hearing Rob's version, Jim's sounded whinier than ever. Rob hit a middle ground that was just right. Finally, in case I haven't said enough to get this post deleted, I've been listening to Bat II the last couple of days and, right now, I prefer BFG to it. It's excellent but, for some reason right now the songs just aren't doing it for me. Attack at will.

15 Apr 2006, 23:54	#5
Bart Bald Mega Loafer Join Date: 06.03.2003 Location: Holland, but I prefer Greece Posts: 2,243	Good old Dave is a little bit deaf cause he ofcourse he knows that the first two lines have the same melody

16 Apr 2006, 00:04	#8
Bart Bald Mega Loafer Join Date: 06.03.2003 Location: Holland, but I prefer Greece Posts: 2,243	I am ugly as hell but my ears are good too

16 Apr 2006, 00:36	#9
AndrewG I hope your salmon sucks! Join Date: 18.01.2004 Location: Northamptonshire Posts: 7,077	Don't really understand what anybody is saying and more importantly why? but this may explain something about Steinman's similarity in songs. He re-uses chord progressions in many of his songs. In fact in the two songs mentioned he uses "C - Am - F - G" a lot (just in different keys). This progression can also be found in Anything for Love, Future ain't what it used to be, the musical part of Left in the Dark (in the middle) and Frying Pan.

16 Apr 2006, 11:03	#12
Ross Best Sig and Avatar 2006!!! (shared) Join Date: 25.11.2003 Location: Coatbridge near Glasgow. Scotland Posts: 3,446	You are right - Stienman does use it a lot. And it is great - it's not a critisism. I'm going to love her for both of has it at one point. But I would still say it's the most common. No it's unlikely Bruce has used it much, because the proggresion is somewhat of a musical chlice (sp), his use of chords seems to be quite diverse. It was most popular, I believe, in the kind of Rock and Roll era in the 50's. Three chord songs are quite popular, but to some extent they don't stand out so much because of the lack of different chords. When you say Cicle of Fiths, do you mean an entire song based on the complete circe? Modulating every chord? I don't imagine that would work very well...

16 Apr 2006, 14:40	#14
Ross Best Sig and Avatar 2006!!! (shared) Join Date: 25.11.2003 Location: Coatbridge near Glasgow. Scotland Posts: 3,446	Ah I think I know what you mean now - that progression would result in a modulation to the subdominant key. I thought you meant the entire cicle - C G D A E B F# C#/Db Ab Eb Bb F - as a progression for an entire song! Which would sound a little unstable. Yes the Dominant 7th chord is very common rather than just the dominant. I don't know much about blues, but the Dom. 7th chord has been a staple of Classical Harmony for centuries - so I wouldn't say it took it's roots solely from Blues. Going back to the I VI IV V debate here is a list of songs off the top of my head that use it to a great extent Stand By Me Unchained Melody I Will Always Love You Every Breath You Take Mandy Goodbye My Lover (james Blunt) King for a Day (Greenday) Crocodile Rock (La Bit) In My Secret Life & Alexandria Leaving (Leanord Cohen) We Go Together from Grease (and several other songs from it too)

16 Apr 2006, 21:22	#18
mszee Mega Loafer Join Date: 28.03.2006 Location: And you think you're down under??? Posts: 26,252	Ok..you're both right... I know for a fact that Jim Steinman feels...how else you can write lyrics like that? And yet I listened to the album and cringed...I believe that it was a struggle for him and his voice to just stay with the vocals of his songs...the instrumentals...never mind emoting... When Meat Loaf sings those same songs...he just completely breaks my heart...again..maybe it's a fluke of my hearing... And there is another thing...there is definitely something wrong with the production of this record...I definitely heard either bad guitars or bad guitar playing on the album...was cutting my ears off my head...and then I went and read the credits...oops...those are Meat Loaf's band musicians...there was definitely something wrong with this album technically...

16 Apr 2006, 21:31	#19
mszee Mega Loafer Join Date: 28.03.2006 Location: And you think you're down under??? Posts: 26,252	Ok...I am being extremely good and staying on the subject... And I need help... I am looking at the back picture of the Bad For Good album insert...picture of Jim Steinman...is it me or does it look like a Superman or some Super hero in any event???

16 Apr 2006, 22:56	#21
Pudding I'm A Prize Fight Lover... Join Date: 22.10.2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 5,532	Bad For Good is a great album, not many Meat Loaf fans successfully argue otherwise. Yes, Steinman's singing isn't fantastic, but overall it's a great album, with some great songs that Meat Loaf himself wanted to record for Bat2. Surf's Up and Objects are sod all alike and despite what intro or outro Steinman uses, the songs are completely different. Surf's Up and Angel Arise are alike that's obvious. But to say Surf's Up and Objects are alike is the kind of nonsense I'd expect to hear from...well...Ryan. No offence to Ryan but he has a bit of a reputation of comparing songs in the most obscure fashion and picking up on 3 notes that sound the same and claiming blatant recycling by Steinman. Pud

16 Apr 2006, 23:08	#22
RadioMaster The German Join Date: 11.03.2006 Location: some kind of hunting lodge for rich weirdos... Posts: 15,778	only one question: Should i buy it? And maybe another question: I got a cd from a friend, where the cover with the names of the artists got lost. There is a song called "surf´s up tonight", is that the song You mentioned here? R.

16 Apr 2006, 23:23	#24
RadioMaster The German Join Date: 11.03.2006 Location: some kind of hunting lodge for rich weirdos... Posts: 15,778	sure Midnight Oil? ...cool