The F Word In Like A Rose
 

Since the Leno topic is now closed and its a great topic to debate, why dont I just give birth to this?

My View from the Leno Thread:


hes always had a potty mouth Live, why not for just two songs in the studio :shrug:

Whats your take on the F word?

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...arioSmiley.gif

I quite like it :?

It's definitely not what I'd expect from Meat lyrics (if you consider "proper" Meat lyrics to be Steinman style) but if every song had lyrics I expected then I probably wouldn't listen to them.

Swearing in general doesn't bother me too much in songs, my opinion on it tends to be based on the context in which the language is used, and to be honest in the context of Like A Rose I think it's great, really edgy and you really get an impression of the woman in the song...of all the times I've heard Meat use "bad" language (which is a lot!!) I'd say Like A Rose is the case in which it's most effective.

I dont give a f*ck

I don't mind swearing as long as it works for the song (Which in those cases it does) and it isn't just snuck in to shock people which is one of my pet peeves. I think it works for the song as well as the character of Patrick

Yeah I have to agree with others who have posted, if it works within the song and isn't simply thrown in with no reason, then i dont really see it has a problem!

I think the swearing in 'Like a Rose' is well placed - actually helps the song in my opinion :D

Mike.

So I think people have an aversion to the F bomb used in the verb sense vs. an adjective. I don't think it is lazy writing unless it's used as an adjective over and over in a song (there are some rap songs where it's the only clear word in the song and you can't understand the rest of it). But it's placement in LAR is blunt and packs a punch to it. I like it. I have no problem with Meat singing it.

Gee, I'm surprised it took this long for a poll to be started on this topic. As a rule I don't usually like swearing in songs, but I agree with the others, in this song I think it works, especially in the context of Patrick saying it. He's been singing the line 'you can shove it up your arse' in Lemon for years, and I don't remember anyone jumping up and down in outrage over that.

Carole

I doubt that the guys who wrote it had ever heard of Patrick so how can it work in that context?

I assume it's not the use of the word itself but more the fact that you get "fück" and "dick", the rather simple songwriting on some HCTB songs (if you compare it to Steinman, for example) and the fact that Meat "plays" a young chap that appears like a desperate attempt to appear "hip" to some people. Considering that some people not only dislike it but even seem to get pretty angry about it, I don't know if that was such a clever idea...

I'm not bothered by the "fück" in Like A Rose but I don't consider it great songwriting either. If the song at least told a great story... Using "offensive" language isn't art, it kind of reminds me of conversations you overhear when using public transportation or go shopping at a discounter. I appreciate songwriters who are very skilled at working with language and who know more than one ("explicit") way to express something.

[QUOTE=Sarge;526192]I doubt that the guys who wrote it had ever heard of Patrick so how can it work in that context?
QUOTE]

I'm sure I remember Meat saying in interviews about the album when it came out, that he gave the songwriters a brief outline of the concept of what he wanted for the album.

Carole

No Problem WHATSOEVER! It works.

Most songs on the album obviously existed before the "concept" and I doubt that the songwriters thought "oh, we have to include a F word because that could work well in the Patrick story".

I think these lyrics are just somewhat "rawer" than the Steinman ones quoted, different way of writing, different style, probably a bit unfair to compare them (though understandable). I don't have a problem with them, have a problem with LAR as I think the arrangement goes rapidly downhill after the first verse but think California is brilliant.

I don't think he's necessarily trying to be "hip", but I could be wrong. Meat Loaf cursing is not exactly a new thing. He's cursed at every concert I've been to (which does not bother me). If he was trying to appeal to a younger audience, wouldn't he have done more songs like Los Angeloser? I don't know the answer either, just speculating. I think cursing in songs is ok. When I think of the word f**k in a song, the first song that comes to mind is "It's Been Awhile" by Staind. In the end, if someone doesn't like it; they just shouldn't listen to it and if someone does like it, listen away!!

Swearing / using explicit language on stage during a complex and theater play like song like Paradise or a "conversation" with the audience is different to doing it on an album, on songs in which emphasis seems to be put on words like "fück", "dick", "bitch"... These words weren't an essential part of Meat Loaf albums before and I can understand why some long-time fans have issues with that.

BUT when Meat uses explicit language on stage he gets a good rise from the audience as well as laughter at times. These words are used in the song to be grungy and dirty, not to be "hip". It just sounds like certain folk want more of the same Meat Loaf of albums past. He's moved on from that style for now. It's not your cup of tea, we get it, he gets it....it doesn't mean he's going to change his style for some disgruntled old timer fans.

The "fück" in Like A Rose has a totally different intention than the "fück" he uses on stage as part of a performance. That's what I was trying to point out. It's two different things.

Trying new things is a good thing but the use of words like "fück" in lyrics is getting old. It might be new for Meat but it has been done to death in rock, pop and rap already. It's as "shocking" as his twinkling skull jacket. With regard to the comments I heard from some fans, they rather seem to consider it annoying than offensive. I think they don't have have that much an issue with the language in general, they rather seem to think that Meat doesn't differ that much from other artists anymore by doing something that others have done before and that anybody could do.

I just identified one major reason why I dislike Patrick that much, LOL. The guy is too ordinary, too commonplace, he doesn't have any special features, he's totally bland. :twisted: Definitely no "rock & roll hero"...

You're so kind SuzieQ for calling me a "some disgruntled old timer fan", that is really nice of you. Those disgruntled old timer fans did help Meat Loaf get to where he is now. It's ironic to conclude that the attitude of some here and perhaps even Meat Loaf included on this matter is simply "well F*ck you if you don't like it" :roll:

Once again, the main point (which no-one except Sarge seems to be talking about, which is strange considering everyone thinks the lyrics are so great and "relevant" -sigh) I was trying to get across is that I think there is a difference between Meat cracking jokes; saying "F*ck you" to Patti at the end of Paradise, "F*ck it" occasionally etc and singing lyrics such as "And f*ck you when she's done". Using the word F*ck to describe sex is completely different than using it as an insult.

I do not believe that Meat resorting to this kind of language; mostly trying to shock is the only alternative than songs sounding like old timer Steinman ones. I think that is a rather absurd conclusion.

Seeing a "Fan" campaign trying to get the one song I find the most annoying to get to chart really disappoints me as I simply do not think it is a good representation of what Meat Loaf is all about. This song all seemed about shock or trying to be hip/cool whatever; yeah we will get Jack Black on this, make it the shortest song on the record and throw a "f*ck you when she's done" in there. Keep on blaming the record companies for low sales, keep calling me disgruntled, old timer all you want but I do not think this is right, it is not helping Meat and his image in my opinion and it is simply not "music" I want to listen to any more. :( I care enough about everything that has gone before to try to explain myself, if that makes you hate me or my opinions, so be it.

nobody hates you. As this thread proved people are divided on LAR. whether you like it or hate it this sucker still exists.

Your opinion is understanble, just like some people loathe California, cant stand Masculine, are anti-Dead Ringer For Love, or think DYELS is a load of shit.

Its opinion. I like the song you dont. who is wrong? Noone. cause thats why we are human. we are different.

people... calm the fuc, ok so i wont go there. but i do think that we should all calm down, i love to listen to ML sing his heart out full of emotion. that emotioion might be deep rooted and heart felt but by the same token that emotion might be construed as a sudden outburst in which swearing is the only effective way to get your emotions across. i for one do not think that the use of the word f@ck in LAR is lazy songwriting. in that particular track & in the concept of the song I think it was needed. i think it was stephen fry who said that there is an art to swearing & only because people who do not understand the art & who in turn use swearing to cover up their lack of language, then they diluite the importance of swearing. words like f@ck appear in recognised dictionaries across the land. it is a widely used word that covers a wide range of emotions : shock, laughter, anger, sex... i believe that used in the correct context it is not only acceptable but also justified. IMHO... take care xx

Well, I'm one of those 'old-timers' too, and I don't take offence at what Suzie has said. Meat said in an interview once, if ever he becomes hip to get a gun and shoot him, so he is definitely not trying to be hip. And he has also stated that it was Jack Black who approached him.

Carole

Watch these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GezFdUJY5MI

Now imagine Meat singing that song live in his "Elton John suit". Do you see what the problem is? :devil:

I don't get why the word f@ck offends anyone when Jim said God·damn and Meat said Ass on Bat 2. Why was there not a big fuss over that??

Has been explained already. There is cursing and there is the use of blunt or dirty language to describe something, e.g. an action or a body part. "Shove it up your ass" on Lemon is not to be taken literally (you actually can't shove your future up your ass), while "fück you when she's done" or "I can barely fit my dick in my pants" are. It's easy (and often unimaginative) to say "fück", everybody can do that, but it takes some skills to paraphrase "fück" in a clever, interesting way.

I agree with gizmo; emotion may be wrested from deep emotions, or just a sudden outburst in language in current use. And yes, It was Stephen Fry who said it became artless when it was used merely as a word peppered throughout conversation due to peole's lack of breadth in language. To me it works in LAR and is perfectly justified. We all put our own interpretation on lyrics .. I hear it as "screw you over" .. which I don't take to mean the act of sex itself, but hear it as it's used in every day adult parlance now ..

In the same way I think the phrase in California works perfectly too. It's vivid, basic, the kind of phrase I've heard men use when they're talking about their purely physical reaction of being turned on. The character isn't singing to a woman he loves deeply; it's not meant to be a FCOL to a woman who's meant the world to him .. he's singing to a hooker with all the raw sexuality that implies; not with love, reverence, appreciation of the woman as a person, but based purely on his basic sexual urge. Again, it works to me. As Gizmo said, acceptable, justified and fit in the context.

As far as LAR being chosen as the fan single .. just to remind that it was chosen by the majority of fans here who voted. And yes, it may well take skill to paraphrase "fück" in a clever, interesting way, but LAR is a punchy song and I don't thin it was necessary to do so. You might well say the same about the phrase in California, but again .. would a young soldier who thinks he's dying on a battlefield be likely to do that? And for whatever reason the lyricist wrote the words, that's the reason Meat decided that yes, he could sing the phrase.

Caryl

Take Patrick out of the equation and just view them as songs and does anyone's view change?

A song should speak for itself. I don't buy the Patrick story and I don't care about what he thinks, I don't listen to the songs that way. I would probably hate the album if I did. If you click the link I posted you might realize that the concept of Meat playing a young fellow who uses "explicit" language is not really convincing.

Not really as far as I'm concerned. The songs don't offend me in the least. As I've said before I'm a follower of Meat .. I just enjoy hearing his voice and passion. An added bonus with Meat for me is you can actually HEAR the lyrics, and these are both fine by me.

However, I don't take the character out of the equation, or see the need to. It's an album with a strong storyline, and the character comes through the songs very strongly to me, which is generally the case for me anyway when I listen to Meat singing. And I mentioned it in regard to California because Meat said his initial reaction was "I can't sing that" .. but it was the context that persuaded him.

LAR is a catchy, up tempo and amusing song, and it worries me not in the least that the F word is used in the context I hear it in ... ie "screw you over"... and I find nothing whatsoever offensive about the phrase used in California either .. Perhaps a little (but not that much today) outrageous, but then that's what I enjoy about Meat. He doesn't just take easy listening options. It's in-your-face rock, and I love it :-)

Caryl

I don't think it's about "buying" the story .. you make it sound as if Meat suddenly decided afterwards to invent one, and I think it's clear that he had this as the basis for his album.

As to your final point .. I'll leave aside your rather patronising "if you ... you might realise" comment. He convinces me. I did click the link. I am perfectly capable of seeing the point you infer, but I don't agree. I prefer Meat. He's a great actor, and I CAN hear the character he's created to inhabit the songs. He doesn't need to dress in shabby jeans and a vest. He creates the illusion with his total conviction in the song as far as I'm concerned .. and the jackets you often refer to as "Elton John" don't get in the way of that. To me they merely serve the purpose of making him visible from every point in the arena.

To me whether a song speaks for itself or not is not relevant I listen to them in the context off the album and Meat's delivery (although I personally find no problem with any of the songs on HCTB). The key point for me in regards to Meat is that he makes any song his own, fills it with life, gives it legs. I don't seek to separate him from the songs he records, or them from him. I just enjoy and rejoice in him bringing them to life for me.

Caryl

So who persuaded him then and why did he have to be persuaded? I thought it was him who had that great "concept" and directed the songwriters on what to contribute? Either you believe in the material or you don't - it rather sounds like an excuse to me. "Oh, actually I was reluctant to sing that word but I had to do it because of the concept." :roll:

So you actually think that the art of songwriting is not relevant? In this case Meat could sing the phonebook and you'd still praise it as a great story.

No, in this case he decided to make it the songs of some fictitious chap. :twisted: A chap that rather keeps the songs from walking than giving them legs and who has to serve as an excuse for "explicit" lyrics.

I think the song is okay but Meat does not convince me. Obviously you did not watch the video. It's not about "patronizing", it's about credibility. A bunch of tattooed young blokes in undershirts (who use that kind of language a lot in their music) performing that song is way more authentic than the "Pavarotti of Rock" doing it. If he really stood by the "new style" and those "raw", "explicit" songs, he would have changed his image accordingly so that it would match the music - instead of relying on Patrick. He hasn't, and that's why the "fücking" and struggeling with the "dick" (or is it just undersized pants? :twisted:) appear odd to some.

Oh for heaven's sake. You choose to see what Meat said as "an excuse", I simply accepted what he said at the London Playback. He said we'd hear him use a phrase which might make us say "Did Meat Loaf sing that?" .. and that his initial reaction was "I can't sing that" .. but he had reasoned that it was a fit within the context. Any more you'll need to ask Meat not me. I'm not in the man's head, I just accept his explanation.

I said that to ME whether a song speaks for itself or not is not relevant and that I listen to them in the context off the album and Meat's delivery. That's MY perspective. Different to yours, but I am entitled to enjoy music any way I wish. The telephone directory is not a song. But yes, IMO any song Meat has sung, I can hear something in, and MY view is that he DOES give any song legs. "Fictitious" means created .. so of course Patrick is created, and that's my point. Meat creates a character for all the songs he sings, he's always said that. This time he shared that character with us. You don't like it, and clearly will never see it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist for Meat and for many others .. just that you don't, or don't want, to see it.

You say "Obviously you did not watch the video. It's not about "patronizing", it's about credibility." I was referring to your comment in your reply to me as being patronising, in that you were implying that if I'd only click the link you gave I'd "realise". Now you say I can't have watched the video when I've told you I did. I watched it and gave my reply. Just because I don't find your argument convincing to me doesn't mean I didn't bother to watch it, nor that I couldn't identify what you were driving at. I simply disagree. If Meat had dressed like the young men in the video there would have doubtless been negative comments from some about that. IMO he doesn't need to. His passion and delivery make the song work for me.

Caryl

Not sure why you are taking offense Andrew. It's a true statement. All old timer fans in general helped Meat Loaf get to where he is now. And as an artist he has elected to make HCTB which has left some disgruntled and some happy. The thing is the ones that became disgruntled have possibly realized that Meat isn't their cup of tea anymore. I think Meat's gotten all the memo's for those who didn't like HCTB or the songs particularly LAR and California. And yes, you may have to face the fact that Meat could possibly say "well F*ck you if you don't like it". Meat likes it, I think Meat has also got the memo's from the folks who love it and possibly, just possibly, there are more that love it than don't.

According to the poll above as of this time 0 people have voted No. 26 voted Yes and only 3 people voted they don't like the song. Now unless the disgruntled old timers have already jumped off the Meat Loaf train and no longer visit here because of their dislike of direction....this poll is not of the same opinion as yours Andrew.

But again no one voted NO in the poll no matter what the usage. I honestly believe that the way Meat Loaf "used" the word would change your opinion. I think it's a cop out. I think people are shocked he used it at all and are appalled that he recorded it. That is my opinion. The same who dislike LAR also do not like the song and do not like the album. It's not their bag. And I get that...and respect it. Did he lose old timer fans in the process? Yes, I believe he did. Did he make other old timer fans happy in the process? Yes, he did. Did he gain new fans in the process? Yes, he did.

Thank you for your honest opinion, it doesn't make me hate you. Sorry the fan campaign song wasn't voted your way so you wouldn't be disappointed. BUT I suppose you could be disappointed in us all here for voting this way.

Now I usually don't agree with some on this forum, but I'm not sure why you're taking offense. I don't see your name in the post.

As for the f**k word, isn't Paradise about a guy trying to f**k a woman in a car? The word isn't used, but we get the meaning behind the song. I know Jim Steinman didn't use the word, but what if he had? Would you give it a pass because it's a Steinman song or he'd use it more cleverly? Some people, by the way, take great offense at the words Hell, God damn and Ass no matter what way they are used. I think the point of Suzieq's post is that some Meat Loaf fans expect a Steinman written or Steinmanesque album everytime. They didn't get it with HCTB and that leaves them feeling like Meat Loaf is forgetting his original fan base. I think with some of the responses, some classic Meat Loaf fans like it, some don't. Everybody has a right to their opinion. If you don't like it, that's ok.

I haven't kept it a secret that I'm a huge Metallica fan. As I've said on many threads, I love their classic albums and some of their latest albums don't appeal to me as much. But I understand why their music has transformed over the years...out of need. If they had kept their hard thrash and speed metal edge, they may have gone the way of the dinosaurs. Their music has evolved to appeal to a new audience. That's ok. If their's something on a new album I don't like, I don't listen to it. Simple as that.

Here's what I think happened. The post did hit a nerve because you are a fan of Meat Loaf's classic albums and the cursing doesn't appeal to you. You're a passionate fan and feel strongly about this topic. That's ok. But, you get upset and post back. Take you first sentence out of your post and you make a valid point which some agree with. There was no need to take offense.

P.S. LAR was voted on and won. Somebody likes it.

Did I say that you aren't?

Yeah, but I wish he had selected a more interesting character, one that suits him better. ;)

Unfortunately... :-P

I didn't say that he has to wear undershirts when performing but if you have a concept you consider that important it has to work on all levels. Do you think the suits he wears nowadays match the story and the lyrics? You can't sing "serious" songs, use "strong" language and talk about a severely wounded soldier all the time and look like that, sorry.

That's the point, he is a good performer. That's why he actually neither needs Patrick nor emphatic "fücks" but that's just my opinion.

those are excellent points...

would there be the same outrage/uproar had "who needs the young" been included on one of the earlier albums?

That's what makes clever, exciting lyrics - the listener has the chance to explore and discover and understands what it is about although the lyrics aren't that "explicit". Steinman's songs are full of sex but he has a unique way of writing about it. He has the ability of wrapping even trivial matters in outstanding, distinctive lyrics.

I agree with you ( hold on let me mark this down in my calendar ;) ). I think Jim Steinman is a genius. But is his use of God Damn clever, outstanding or distinctive? No. I don't take offense to it, but other's might. Why say God Damn in the first place? Is it for shock value? It doesn't add anything. I get that you don't like the use of the word f**k in the song. Some don't have a problem with it. I personally don't mind. I like the song. It's different and I believe that's wherein the problem lies.

Note to self, make another mark on my calendar. ;)

So about these jackets/suits: Meat has worn the Red and Blue jackets only in the Los Angeloser vid and the red one only in the back end of his live show. Current TV appearances he has on the black vest with the bling and I don't think this should be lumped into the Red and Blue jacket opinion. It's not like the man walks around in public with his stage persona on.

So let's be Meat's wardrobe coordinator now, what would you suggest he wear and when? Use paperdolls if you must.

Was the number of new fans greater than the number of alienated fans?

I believe the fans alienated would like to think no. It's a bit of an unknown but you knew that didn't you.

I think the alienated fans are a bit demanding often implying ... [You are going to lose what fan base you have left and not gain a single fan because of what you are trying and we don't like it, so go back to the songs/style we love because you need us attitude].

Maybe someday Meat will sing to your liking again. It's not out of the question, it just isn't now.

Not necessarily, if you look at it seperately, but it works within the Steinman world. It's an expression of rebellion, of rock and roll life style, LAR is just a description of a relationship of two characters I don't care about, it neither conveys a feeling nor a message that appeals to me. Bat I and II are rock and roll phantasies, HCTB pretends to be realistic (aside from the life flashing forward thing and the various girls that are actually one and the same girl or whatever confusing story the "concept" is supposed to be based on). If you haven't heard about the Patrick story you probably don't know why the hell you are suddenly confronted with "fück" and the like.

You either got me wrong or missed this:

I tried to explain why some people hate it and why I don't think that Meat is very credible when singing such lyrics (or representing Patrick). That doesn't mean that I feel offended by it - I don't. I have to listen to much worse expressions every day. That's why it doesn't impress me at all, neither in a positive nor in a negative way. If Meat tried to do something special by saying "fück" on a record, he failed. ;)

Well said, Sarge. And by using that word in the song that way, it kills any chance at all to get it heard on the radio or TV, unless you edit it, and as others have said, it's not the same song then, really.

I'm going to use the example of Springsteen's Reno again- he manages to be much more explicit than LAR or California, yet the only "swear" word he uses is "ass". And while some people don't care for that song either (they can't get past the sexual images), he actually uses it as way to express some very deep feelings.

When you have to resort to using bad language in songs, it shows you have a very limited vocabulary, and you're a poor lyricist.

Tell that to Eminem who seems to make it work real nicely for him and his bankroll. Again, people just have a problem with Meat Loaf using it.

Two totally different styles of song.

The word is used in the same way.

It's interesting as I actually think Eminem's latest album is better than HCTB, has more catchy songs, better chord progressions and great lyrics and I normally don't like his music at all. "Love the way you lie" is one of my favourite songs released this year.

Both songs have the F word in them btw.

Unlike LAR or California, Reno is really deep, emotional and "shocking", just because of the way Springsteen describes what's going on - without having to use words like "fück" or "dick".

Eminem has always used "bad" language in his songs, it's part of his image and he has a totally different background and audience. If he had sung ballads like Anything before and all of a sudden switched to lyrics with F words your comparison would make sense.

Indeed and this is why I think it's crazy for Meat to even think about using that language on the album. If he really wants to sell records then go back to making songs like AFL, if he wants to do his own thing (which is what it seems) and not care then indeed go ahead and do it. But don't give me this crap that it's the record company's fault for the albums and singles not selling well. This has a lot more to do with the change of content than most people seem to be admitting here.

it was their fault for not releasing LA and promoting it correctly :shrug:

LAR has no one to blame but Jack and Meat's love to perform with eachother.

They both seemed to have fun rocking with each other. That song must've been a blast to record.

that's all that counts. Meat had fun making the track and Jack wanted to rock with Meat again. What was the harm? meats one of Jack's biggest influences and it was great for them to mix Tenacious D and Meat Loaf.

theirs always the skip button for people who hate the song or the word in question.

maybe this osng would be looked at differently with Kyle, Jack and Meat doing this as a threesome with meat guesting on a TD album instead.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...arioSmiley.gif

1) this version sucks. I was at this show and was totally turned off by the song when they sang it. When Meat sings it, its WAY better. It has MEANING.

Come off of your high horses people. Its a SONG. If it offends you, it offends you. Dont listen to the song. Simple as that. We dont need to go round and round about our opinions of how a word is used in a song.

Amen, some of the folks on here just can seem to handle the fact that most of here love HCTB. Stop beating a dead horse for craps sake.

Discussion is fine, when it gets to personal attacks (veiled or otherwise) then the line is drawn, and that goes for all the threads here! Please remember that everyone!

It's the same song. Can you explain where the meaning of Meat's version comes from if the original doesn't have any? (But please spare me the Patrick story, if possible.)

Steve6 never mentioned a word about Meat Loaf in his post. He made a general statement and I refuted it with an example. I have to say that you are stretching for a reason to say my comparison doesn't make sense.

i actually liked their version better :shrug:

i mean we still have to see meat's live arrangement first as well. maybe its similar :shrug:

Sigh, the more I am on this board and discovering that almost all these songs on HCTB have been done before by much younger people (and sometimes better), the more I think that Patrick concept is absolutely stupid and just a silly excuse to tie a bunch of random songs together. I can't think of another time when Meat has pieced together an album with so many pre-existing songs. Sooo disappointing I'm losing the ability to take my interest in this music forward. :-(

I honestly did not know Like a Rose had been done before. What exactly is the point in Meat recording all these songs???

When I first heard the song, I laughed at the line with "f*ck" in it, but when I read so many opinions about it, it starts to make me think about the "why". Is Meat trying to be hip or cool or trying to attract a younger audience ? I don't know. I just want to enjoy the song without thinking about it. For me, it just is what it is: a song sung by someone I enjoy very much.

obviosuly if these song writers wrote the songs they tested them out with audiences before. he made no secret that many people were writing the stuff.

It takes skill to put songs (however unrelated) into a co-adhesive storyline. I trust meat and if he says Patrick exists, so be it.

Look at Not A Dry Eye or id Lie For You, meat wasnt the first to perform them. Im sure I saw diane warren perform both on youtube in 1994...

But isn't that really the intent of the song? I mean, as a performer who both sings and does stand up - I know there is a time and a place for everything. If I am singing a church service, I know there is an "appropriateness" for that moment. If I am doing stand up in a club, I know I have to ramp up the "naughty" a bit. Further, if I am hosting Rocky Horror, I know that if I am not dropping an f-bomb at least every 30 seconds that I am not really doing my job.

I will be the first to admit that I have somewhat of a potty mouth; however, as an artist I know that my language must fit within the context of the moment. If I am in a situation where it is my job as an entertainer to portray a certain function, I know I must either ramp it up and cool it off. For example, when Rocky Horror starts, I know the audience is going to be dropping all kinds of naughty language at every turn as part of the "call backs" and part of my job as emcee of Rocky Horror is to brace the new or more sensitive audience for what they are about to hear, that's why I drop a ton of dirty words during my opening. The context of the song is very much a "locker room" or "boys club" type of setting. To me, it would be offensive to have the context of the song butchered by softening the syntax.

Well this is the danger of using so many different song writers. Meat himself didn't even know "Did you ever love somebody" had been recorded before. I honestly think he should get one song writer or just a few more to write songs solely for him, like was done for the main tracks on CHSIB and the main new ones on Bat 3. I really think those songs sound like they were written for Meat Loaf and not just a bunch of songs anyone can use in their band, which it seems Like a Rose is like.

I think this may well be the main reason I don't like HCTB. :? Thanks to everyone for helping me find it. Mission accomplished. Now off to find new things...

I'm not. Since this thread is about Meat Loaf using the F word and you added the sentence "again, people just have a problem with Meat Loaf using it", I wasn't aware that you referred to a general statement only.

I Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself!

Here's my final point on this. If you don't like it, don't listen to it, but don't persecute me for thinking there's nothing wrong with it. You don't like it, ok. I like it, that's also ok. You want him to sing Steinman or Steinmanesque songs. Take out Bat I or II. I'll listen to the rest. Fair enough?

We've gone from 'all the songs were never recorded before' to 'most of the songs have been recorded before' in a pretty short space of time. :shrug:

OMG! I think the world just might end right here and now...but I could not agree with you more on this point. You hit the nail right on the head. The songs for Bat were meant to take the listener on a journey of passion and romance. The songs on Bat 2 were chosen to take the listener further on the journey of the songs from Bat 1. I would venture to say that the songs on Couldn't Have Said It Better were chosen to take the listener on an adventure of the end of a relationship for the most part. In the same realm, the songs on Hang Cool Teddy Bear are pieced together to not show romance or a typical high-functioning relationship - they are pieced together to show the life of a blue collar, hard working, plain spoken dude. The raw and piercing guitar work on this album would not have worked with soaring and epically proportioned lyrics found elsewhere in the Meat Loaf catalogue.

Only one was, DYELS. Everything else was either only performed live or in demo. Nothing has been mainstream released

That's a debatable point.

Why did I pay money for Rick Brantley's CDs then? Why are they available in online stores?

Why not? Have you ever seen a Meat Loaf concert in the American Midwest with the punk kids with multicolored mohawks pseudo-moshing and the audiences crushed up against the stage barriers for the entire show rockin' out like they were at a real rock show? I think the problem is people are very opinionated about their Meat and fail to see that he does appeal to a very broad audience. I have seen older "blue hair" couples in formal cocktail attire, hells angels biker babes, and people in full on Frank N. Furter gear at the same Meat Loaf show all appreciating the music the way they see fit. Meat Loaf is so universal that is not "my way or the highway" with him. Just because his current project is more edgy and raw than in the past, does not mean Meat has turned his back on his past, it just means he realizes there is a part of the taste palate where he has yet to deliver.

Some of the most well thought out and precisely written examples of the English language you'll find on the internet today.

I think you may have been taken advantage of...those versions suck :mrgreen: you may want to file a complaint to whoever robbed you of your coin. ;)

*laugh* Oook then E1.

sad thing is shes right though. they've been released.... ive been proven wrong oy

Until I get to see his portrayal of Patrick in a live concert setting, which does not seem likely as he was sick and it does not look like HCTB Live was meant for me, from what I can hear on the record and see in the youtube clips, it looks like he is pulling it off quite well. Perhaps it is you personally, who does not think it suits him well?

*laugh* best post so far today :)

What does this have to do with the Patrick concept? I'm younger than the majority of Meat Loaf fans but I don't go to his shows because of that. There are dozens of other reasons that are way more appealing that make be buy concert tickets. Ask the "punk kids" why they go to see Meat Loaf, I'm curious about how many will say: "Oh, it's because of Patrick, the hard-working, plain-speaking blue-collar guy." ;)

I would highly disagree with this statement. Sometimes an f-bomb is a very clever way of portraying a thought.

Is the F-word in Like A Rose a clever way of portraying a thought? I don't think it is, and achieves nothing that could not also be achieved by other words other than a failed attempt at shock value.

Hummmm.......

I'd Do Anything for Love (But I Won't Do That)" (duet with Lorraine Crosby) - New Song
Life Is a Lemon and I Want My Money Back - New Song
Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through - Recycled effort from Jim Steinman's solo album
It Just Won't Quit - Recycled effort from Pandora's Box album
Out of the Frying Pan (And into the Fire) - Recycled effort from Jim Steinman's solo album
Objects in the Rear View Mirror May Appear Closer than They Are - New Song (Recycled piano riff from Surf's Up)
Wasted Youth" (monologue by Jim Steinman) - Recycled effort from Jim Steinman's solo album
Everything Louder than Everything Else - New Song
Good Girls Go to Heaven (Bad Girls Go Everywhere) - Recycled effort from Pandora's Box album
Back Into Hell" (instrumental) - New Song
Lost Boys and Golden Girls - Recycled effort from Jim Steinman's solo album

Actually Anything For Love was made up from three already existing pieces Steinman had and Everything Louder and/or Lemon MAY be left overs from the Def Leppard thingy.

couldnt have been lemon. lemon was 100% new. Meat said during recording on the bat 2 picture that he told Jim that they needed a rocker. and Meat and some guy came up with the riff and jim built off of that (not quoted 100%)

I have read Rick Brantley tweet that he is currently working on music for his first "real release" - I believe the prior EP's were demos to have on the market and to have an additional product to sell in conjunction with his live shows. With a lot of Indie Music artists, they will release product in demo form to provide product for a willing artist. It is part of the modern music business. You can look no further than Meat Loaf's daughter to see this in action - she released Broken Thorny Crown then went on to release Immaculate Little White Fox - calling Immaculate Little White Fox her first real release. Further, Fox does include some re-vamped songs from the original Thorny Crown material.

They pay their money to go see Meat Loaf because as a live act he flat out fukcing rocks and they can dig it. As for why Meat is hung up on the Patrick character, who knows? I could give jack sh!t if I never hear the name Patrick again, but I do like the gritty and raw textures included in the serving of Meat Loaf we were offered with this new album. That's all that matters to me. People who go to his shows that are concerned with how he is dressed - I don't get it, but then again there is a nauseating thread on this forum where people drool and spew sexual connotation over photographs of Meat as well. Yes, I think Patti Russo is pretty damned hot, but sexualizing and materializing that cheapens my appreciation of her amazing voice, so I do not focus on it. Brittany Spears causes my ears to bleed, but she does look mightily good in a bikini and a huge snake around her neck, so I can buy into her in that aspect.

I thought Meat suggested a rocker and then Jim went off with a guitarist and came up with a riff? If so then who knows? :shrug:

Then why did he record Bat 2? :twisted:

yea thats what i meant ha. my bad

Money and so he didn't end up a 'one hit wonder' I would hazard a guess.

he wasnt a one hit wonder even in 1993 when 2 outta three, paradise, and took the words were popular

Albumwise. You know what I meant!

actually i didn't. i thought you were still referring to AFL ...

Something that's available on the market for money is a release, in my opinion, regardless of whether it's a single, an EP or a LP.

Well yeah! I didn't say I agreed with it. I just presented the facts.

So did I??

Which three pieces would those be?

Where did you hear that nugget of nonsense from?

Has to be a ~~~~!

:shock:I'm surprised this poll/thread didn't get closed!!!:roll:

why? there havent been any personal attacks and its been on topic.

debates happen on forums

I feel the same way, I just love listening to Meat, hearing his passion when he sings songs and makes them his own. I interpret it that way too, he's saying screw you over, rather than referring to sex. It's that in your face rock that I love too.

Carole

I love what Meat wears on stage, always have done. Don't know why some people seem to have a problem with it.

Carole