I'll be the first to call it

[Adje]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I'm not gloating at all.



This is why they have the electoral college system which simply means California and New York do not decide everything. It is a union of different states do not forget.

Also even if you think California and New York should have the final say and you always agree with the views of the people from there consider that these two states are financially in the top 10 worst performers out of all 50 nation states. ...and they keep voting left hoping for what exactly?
https://www.mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings

Yes you are gloating. Nothng wrong with that. You hoped fr this outcome.

I don't mind the electoral voting system. This is how the U.S. does things. Fine.

But it also doesn't mean the California or New York voters are any less than Texan voters. So fact of the matter is that almost 50% of the individuals wanted person A and almost 50% wanted person B. That, no matter how you try to turn it, weigh it, twist it or reason it, makes it a divided country. If you add that the issues have made those vothers stand so far apart from each other and emotions are running high almost everywhere you look makes it worrying. It woud have been worrying if the other candidate had won, it isn't any less worying now.

[letsgotoofar]

If I may, as someone who swings for the blue team, I would like to offer my two cents.

What some people in this thread are ignoring (or, I'll be a little more charitable, perhaps forgetting) is the role of social media in all this. It's not always about who actually showed up to protest and outcry physically. I don't know about yours, but on my Facebook newsfeed, a lot of (what the young call) butthurt people said the same shit when Obama won and we told them to get over it.

Did they? Is the Pope Catholic? Do bears shit in the woods? (Maybe I should speak a little more directly, I have kind of a sense for the direction this crowd is leaning. Ahem...) They didn't do it immediately. Some of 'em never did. And those people are now using the same opportunity to rub their President-elect in our faces, and we are responding in kind.

Bearing that in mind, I'd like to know what it is some of you are smoking that makes you think it will go any differently now, and can I get some?

You can talk till the cows home about how we all need to band together and hope for the best and "Like it or hate it, he won." Well, they didn't listen when we said it. So, from where I'm sitting, they can be as happy as they wanna be. Meanwhile, until January 20, if we wanna cry and shout our lungs out and post whatever it is that makes us feel better, leave us the hell alone. Some very dark people with very dark leanings are back in full control, and some of us have lives and livelihoods to worry about now, so forgive us if we're not joining you in a chorus of... well... "The Frog Chorus," but there's a very good chance that in the next four (hopefully not eight) years, we won't be standing together as one, because some of us will be well ~~~~ed and far from home.

While I'm here... as long as I bring up four vs. eight... I did find part of Trump's victory speech most interesting and noteworthy. If memory serves, and it was recent so it should, he said, "I look very much forward to being your president, and hopefully at the end of two years or three years or four years, or maybe even eight years... you will say, so many of you worked so hard for us, but you will say that -- you will say that that was something that you really were very proud to do and I can."

Leaving aside the usual incoherence, take note of the nonsensical repetition that robs it of reason: "...at the end of two years or three years or four years..." I mean, I've never argued he was the brightest bulb on the string, but he does know it's a fixed term, yes? I think it's one of two things: he's either 1) smart enough to acknowledge that his belligerence may result in Armageddon or his being impeached before the end of his first term (to which we respond "NO SHIT, SHERLOCK!"), or 2) indicating when he fails to deliver he'll sneak out (let's call it "quitting under pressure" perhaps) before four years are up and leave Pence to shovel the shit, which, knowing his political leanings, is frankly even worse.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Adje

Yes you are gloating. Nothng wrong with that. You hoped fr this outcome.

I don't mind the electoral voting system. This is how the U.S. does things. Fine.

But it also doesn't mean the California or New York voters are any less than Texan voters. So fact of the matter is that almost 50% of the individuals wanted person A and almost 50% wanted person B. That, no matter how you try to turn it, weigh it, twist it or reason it, makes it a divided country. If you add that the issues have made those vothers stand so far apart from each other and emotions are running high almost everywhere you look makes it worrying. It woud have been worrying if the other candidate had won, it isn't any less worying now.

I understand that but the population density differences are SO VAST across the states if it really only went by popular vote as a reflection of who should win middle America may as well not vote at all.

[letsgotoofar]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I understand that but the population density differences are SO VAST across the states if it really only went by popular vote as a reflection of who should win middle America may as well not vote at all.

On that note, you might be interested in this concept. Back in March, someone proposed merely amending the electoral college to more closely reflect the popular vote.

From where I stand, the premise behind founding the electoral college is simple: the average Joe cannot be 100 percent informed about the issues, the ramifications of them, or what impact a political decision may have. Fair enough. That's the purpose of having the electors to begin with, and as much as we think we're more informed, misinformation still fills the airwaves and the Internet. The logic behind having one is sound.

The problem is, the electoral college's process is currently flawed, due to pledges to vote for certain parties and candidates, and also due to gerrymandering. But you don't junk a car because it has a broken spring. You fix the parts that don't work. If we realign the electoral college so it's proportional to the popular vote, it could work better, and more accurately and consistently reflect the will of the people.

Try on their math for size. By these projections, Obama would still have won 2012, and Hillary would have slam-dunked this one.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

How anybody can dislike this comment is incredible. It is not even a comment, it is fact. Jeez....

Just because YOU believe it doesn't make it FACT.You are not so omnipotent that you get to decide what is fact. That just makes you arrogant, egotistical and closed-minded. It is your OPINION only. Others have the right to and can dislike and disagree with what YOU think.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Certainly he won more electoral college votes, but that does not mean individuals overwhelmingly voted for him. The popular vote was pretty evenly split, with Clinton just ahead I think. The EC institution has long been seen by many as a vestigial remnant of a bygone era. In public opinion polls, Americans of all political affiliations support a direct presidential election. Trump himself leveled a critique in 2012, calling it "a disaster for democracy". Its the system, and he certainly had a clear and conclusive win based on that .. but it doesn't equate with an overwhelming number of people's votes.

You are 100% Caryl. Hillary Clinton did win the popular vote. It is because of the Electoral College that we have the result that we do.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

You are 100% Caryl. Hillary Clinton did win the popular vote. It is because of the Electoral College that we have the result that we do.

Would you have accepted a Hillary Clinton electoral college vote win without the popular vote?

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

Just because YOU believe it doesn't make it FACT.You are not so omnipotent that you get to decide what is fact. That just makes you arrogant, egotistical and closed-minded. It is your OPINION only. Others have the right to and can dislike and disagree with what YOU think.

I have posted plenty of information here and on post your thoughts when we spoke about Trump that is backed up by facts and evidence. There is plenty of factual evidence for the above comment. I can't be bothered to look it up for you to be honest because you won't believe it anyway.

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Would you have accepted a Hillary Clinton electoral college vote win without the popular vote?

And that is the biggest problem in American politics on both sides. If trump had one the popular vote with Clinton winning the EC, dems would never speak of the popular vote. Facts seem to be tools that only get used when it's convenient for one sides cause. The electoral college exists so the dem heavy population centers don't decide every election. Rural voters came out huge for trump, that's why the map you showed is so red.

The biggest mistake the establishment made was trying to crown Hillary president. They did everything they could to screw Bernie supporters and many of those came to trump as a result.

One thing I'll add, I don't think remember any Republican led riots when Obama won in 08' or 12. The way millennials are handling this election makes me truly worried for the future of the US and the world in general.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

First, I would like to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread; I appreciate your thoughtful, well-articulated opinions. I also appreciate the support from my friends across the pond during what has been a very stressful time for us all.

I know that most of you understand this already, but this is not about feeling "butthurt" that the red team won- this is very, very different. This is not my first election- "my" candidate has lost several times in the past, and while I haven't always been happy about those outcomes, I have never felt the sense of sadness and real fear that I have been experiencing the last two days. No matter how much I might have disagreed with a former president's policies, I always believed that they had respect for the office. IMO, Trump has not demonstrated that respect, so I don't feel he is deserving of mine. He is simply not fit to lead a country- any country.

His was a campaign that preyed on people's fears and legitimized hate. Whether his supporters took him seriously or not (and the office of the president is a serious issue), it sends the message that his racist, misogynist, homophobic rhetoric is okay. It isn't.

Would Hilary have been a perfect president? No. Things likely would have stayed much the same. But under Trump and some of the individuals who he is considering to put in office, they are likely to get much worse. Economists have predicted that there will be a bad recession, which is not got good news after we're finally crawling out of the hole of the last one. As Caryl said, many people believe that a Trump administration will undo much of the progress that this country has made over the years.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Actually I think your statement is ridiculous and uninformed.

I thought your statement was ridiculous if you think that people are that easily swayed just because some celebrity says they should vote for this or that candidate. If they are, perhaps they shouldn't be voting in the first place, frankly. I think most people had their minds made up long ago. And how endorsing one candidate over the other is "limiting people's choices" is beyond me- there were still three names on the ballot. Besides, all that "star power" did Hillary no good in the end- Bruce showing up at the rally was pretty pointless, IMO, especially that late in the game. The only real reason to have a "concert" is to get people to come to the rally and listen to the speeches.

The Alicia Machado case was the most ridiculous strategy of the corrupt DNC campaign.

It was never about "poor" Alicia Machado, it was about proving how easily Trump's buttons could be pushed, and his behavior when that happens. The way he went off on social media (Lord help us) over something so unimportant is hardly appropriate for a world leader- talk about childish. If you don't understand why it's a problem, then I just don't know what to say. His own campaign had to take away his Twitter account before the election; if he can't be trusted to handle a social media account, how can we trust him to handle foreign relations?

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Really?

Yes, really. What makes you think that any woman would want his filthy hands on them just because he's rich and powerful? That's akin to saying that a woman was asking to be raped because she was wearing a short skirt.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

If you care about physical violence / dirty election tactics / pay for play / collusion and corruption you only need to read around 1% of the Podesta Wikileaks emails to see it is an absolute blessing that Hillary Clinton didn't win.

I don't need to read anything to know that the Trump campaign was just as dirty, if not more so. If you think it was any different, you're kidding yourself.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Well if Trump sucks in 4 years your country can do this all again

I shudder to think what kind of state this country might be in in four years.

Originally Posted by letsgotoofar

The problem is, the electoral college's process is currently flawed, due to pledges to vote for certain parties and candidates, and also due to gerrymandering.

It's also a numbers game, and both sides know how to play it.

Originally Posted by Adje

I disagree with Andrew about his vision of Trump. I do believe that Trump is the worst choice. For a few very simple reasons. If you look back into the life of Trump he isn't that succesful as he claimed and the succes he did gain has always been over the back of the people that trusted him. Don't forget that, by the time he started the Apprentice show, his empire was in huge debt and about to crumble and the Apprentice succes did redeem him. Also the many investigations and lawsuits against his corruption are too much to deny. Trump has cheated his way out of so many issues and there are still lawsuits open.

Yep, he was very devious in his business dealings. When he ran out of money building one of his hotels, he simply didn't pay his vendors, forcing many of them into bankruptcy. In the next couple of weeks, he's due in court to face fraud and racketeering charges over his "University", which if he's convicted, could keep him from ever taking office.

Originally Posted by Adje

Also, the Hate for the Clintons has been so inmense that many votes have been protest votes against Hillary Clinton. And believe me, voting for a candidate because you hate the oponent doesn't necersarily mean you made the right decision.

Absolutely. I think that some of those people might soon be regretting that decision.

Originally Posted by Adje

That said, he has the weight of an entire country on his shoulders now and I hope he handles that with care. He might not have been my choice, but now that he is elected he is the person that I wish strength and all the best during the Presidency, the people have voted. And it is time that Hillary suporters start to acknowledge their loss. Trump will be the next President and, like it or not, he is also your President. I read and hear about demonstrations and riots. It doesn't make this election undone. It's time to take your loss and continue with your life! Everybody was so shocked when Republicans said they would not accept the outcome of the election if Trump lost. But, people, isn't that what the democratic demonstrants are doing right now? Something about the pot calling the kettle black?

Logically, Adje, I understand that division is bad for the country (and it is divided, for sure). But I cannot support him as the president when every fiber in my being (*my* heart) tells me it's wrong. I don't think the protests are about the election being unfair so much as they are about not wanting Trump as an individual in office. I think Trump has alienated people to the degree that I don't know if we can ever be united.

Originally Posted by MarkS

The way millennials are handling this election makes me truly worried for the future of the US and the world in general.

Actually, it makes me happy to see the millenials speaking out. I think many of them didn't take it seriously enough, and now this is the result. Since we're so fond of maps and graphics here, I saw one that indicated that if only millenials had voted, it would have been overwhelmingly blue.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I don't think the protests are about the election being unfair so much as they are about not wanting Trump as an individual in office. I think Trump has alienated people to the degree that I don't know if we can ever be united.

Actually, it makes me happy to see the millenials speaking out. I think many of them didn't take it seriously enough, and now this is the result.

Perhaps the protests (and protests surely are rooted in the fabric of democracy) are not just about not wanting Trump in office, but more about the very real fears people have of him being there, because short of him dropping off the perch, come 20th January he will be. They fear seeing social progress being dismantled, for their friends or themselves who may see their rights eroded, for those fearing deportation, many to a country they've never known. Because of an intransigent Congress, Obama has had to achieve much through Executive Orders, many of which Trump could reverse almost as he entered office (and has said he will). This could include rescinding the protection from deportation of 700,000 people; undoing years of progress toward reducing greenhouse-gas emissions (he has said he believes climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese); re-authorising waterboarding for suspected terrorists, as well as things that are a “hell of a lot worse,” like killing terrorists’ family members; dismantling the deal with Iran to curtail its nuclear development; reversing regulations that protect LGBT people from discrimination (something Pence will push .. the man is rabidly homophobic); immediately refusing to take Syrian refugees. And that's just for starters. He'll need to go to Congress for others, like doing away with Obama Care (which includes protection from discrimination for LGBTs), and may have a tussle over banning entry to all Muslims.

I do not expect anyone to have their rights taken away before they hold up their hand and say .. Excuse me? Those people need to make their voices heard now, will need help and support. They need our voices added to theirs, and imo we do not have the option of sitting it out without losing our humanity. The saying that all evil needs to flourish is for good men to stand by has never been more apposite.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

His was a campaign that preyed on people's fears and legitimized hate. Whether his supporters took him seriously or not (and the office of the president is a serious issue), it sends the message that his racist, misogynist, homophobic rhetoric is okay. It isn't.

Keep giving people that disagree with you on issues these labels and see what happens. Everything you say just becomes hot air after a while and the labels become useless.
"I think when it comes to immigration that.."
"RACIST!"
"I'm not sure about the bathroom..."
"HOMOPHOBE!"
Rosie O donnell vs Donald Trump
Rosie:"He annoys me on a multitude of levels," she said. "He’s the moral authority! Left the first wife, had an affair, left the second wife, had an affair, had kids both times but he’s the moral compass for 20-year-olds in America. Donald sit and spin my friend. I don't enjoy him. This is not a self made man"

Trump: "a woman out of control," a "true loser," a "total train wreck," "disgusting," a "slob," "fat, ugly"

"MISOGYNIST!!"

Yeah Trump hits back whether you are a man or a woman. Don't women want to be treated equally? Or you DO want special treatment? Make up your mind.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Would Hilary have been a perfect president? No. Things likely would have stayed much the same. But under Trump and some of the individuals who he is considering to put in office, they are likely to get much worse. Economists have predicted that there will be a bad recession, which is not got good news after we're finally crawling out of the hole of the last one. As Caryl said, many people believe that a Trump administration will undo much of the progress that this country has made over the years.

The Clintons and Bushes have been directly and indirectly responsible for deaths of millions of people on this planet and causing a massive immigration wave into Europe. Maybe it's time to try different tactics instead of thinking you can police the world.
Obamacare is unaffordable for many through premium hikes and lack of competition. Maybe it would be good if that gets undone indeed or radically improved. Affordable healthcare when it's unaffordable and cannot be used because of massive deductibles is a joke.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I thought your statement was ridiculous if you think that people are that easily swayed just because some celebrity says they should vote for this or that candidate. If they are, perhaps they shouldn't be voting in the first place, frankly. I think most people had their minds made up long ago. And how endorsing one candidate over the other is "limiting people's choices" is beyond me- there were still three names on the ballot. Besides, all that "star power" did Hillary no good in the end- Bruce showing up at the rally was pretty pointless, IMO, especially that late in the game. The only real reason to have a "concert" is to get people to come to the rally and listen to the speeches.

If they cannot be swayed then they should not hold these concerts at all. These moron artists are being used as pawns in the political game. The Democrat campaign spent $1.5 Billion, Trump's camp only $500 million. That's smart, doing more and achieving more with less.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

It was never about "poor" Alicia Machado, it was about proving how easily Trump's buttons could be pushed, and his behavior when that happens. The way he went off on social media (Lord help us) over something so unimportant is hardly appropriate for a world leader- talk about childish. If you don't understand why it's a problem, then I just don't know what to say. His own campaign had to take away his Twitter account before the election; if he can't be trusted to handle a social media account, how can we trust him to handle foreign relations?

Yet you completely overlook the fact that Hillary brought this issue up in the presidential debate. It thus seems you approve of this character assassination tactic. Where did Trump bring up anything other than political choices and actions about Hillary during these debates? He didn't, he stayed on topic focusing on politics whilst Hillary went on a wild goose chase bringing up irrelevant nonsense from the 90s. The only time he deviated was the Bill Clinton rape accusations and pedophile Hillary as a lawyer case where she got the pedophile's sentence down and she later laughed at the fact she would never believe a polygraph again, thus indicating she knew he was completely guilty. Again these were actions (some alleged), but more than just Trump's words which seems all Hillary was going after. That and taxes. Weak I think as she is just describing countless individuals in America who are not necessarily breaking any laws.

A brief clip perhaps indicating that BBC News perhaps is accepting the Trump presidency yesterday showed the following arguments between Trump and Obama:
Obama: "This guy? Come on man. He ain't gonna be president."
Trump: "ISIS has been created as a direct result of the bad foreign decisions by president Obama and Secretary Clinton which had left a vacuum in Iraq and surrounding regions."

During that clip it was actually Trump who was the one who sounded presidential. Why Obama sometimes still uses street talk after almost 8 years of being a president I really don't understand.

So Trump has a bit of fun with Twitter. Look at the tweets now demanding his assassination. Social media leads to bad things quite often and it's the only time when a new president HAD to be elected that both candidates have been using it so much. It's not only Trump who has written bad things on Twitter and I'm sure he will be more presidential from January 20th onwards.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Yes, really. What makes you think that any woman would want his filthy hands on them just because he's rich and powerful? That's akin to saying that a woman was asking to be raped because she was wearing a short skirt.

On that much discussed tape I'm pretty sure Trump was referring to what women LET you do in the celeb world. If many women are happy to get video taped during sex or prostitute themselves, yes I believe there are many who will let billionaires touch them anywhere. People can find it vile or disgusting and un-presidential but it is simply fact. Trying to remove our re-productive instincts completely from life is a fight you'll never win. Sure there is a time and place for that and not in the oval office but that tape was a private conversation regardless.

On the groping:
If a woman gets raped they should go to the police, file charges or start a lawsuit like several women did against alleged rapist and known adulterer Bill Clinton who was almost headed back into the white house. Women shouldn't wait until their rapist or groper perhaps, maybe, ever runs for presidency before coming forward. Total BS. I have already pointed out at least 4 of the grope accusers have been debunked. Yet you don't care about law and order, as if an accusation somehow sits above that. I'm all for equal rights, equal pay for women etc but you cannot have the situation where as soon as a woman shouts rape everyone should lose their jobs. The American electorate took law and order above sympathy at the ballot box. Trump had the backing of almost all police forces, army generals and border patrol etc. This is telling. Moving into a direction of feels only is something I don't think the USA will ever do fully even though it has happened quite a bit over here in Europe and is leading to problems as they influence political choices.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I don't need to read anything to know that the Trump campaign was just as dirty, if not more so. If you think it was any different, you're kidding yourself.

No you are ignorant if you don't even consider the collusion and criminality of what was exposed through Wikileaks and beyond. The emails go back to 2008 and criminal / suspicious behaviour has been going on for years including Tim Kaine already being picked as Hillary's VP back in June 2015! Trump only announced his presidential run 18 months ago. Indeed there could be bad tactics from the Trump campaign during this time. Show me the evidence however beyond reaction to action and beyond online campaigning (which Obama's camp did well and Hillary's camp didn't). Just assuming criminal behaviour is ridiculous. I can only make a judgement on evidence that is available.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I shudder to think what kind of state this country might be in in four years.

You might be involved in less foreign wars over a period of 4 to 8 years. There will probably be a limitation of illegal immigrants and there might be more people in the labour force.
Obamas unemployment figures are skewed and includes part time jobs. There have never been this many people outside of the labour force (95 million) in the USA.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Yep, he was very devious in his business dealings. When he ran out of money building one of his hotels, he simply didn't pay his vendors, forcing many of them into bankruptcy. In the next couple of weeks, he's due in court to face fraud and racketeering charges over his "University", which if he's convicted, could keep him from ever taking office.

Many people have tried such learn through listening to an expert business models. If criminality is proven in court then fair enough but my guess is this case will be settled and everyone involved will be happy. This case is very different than putting the country at risk with storing classified government emails on a private server when you are secretary of state in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Absolutely. I think that some of those people might soon be regretting that decision.

It was this kind of elitist thinking that made people go to Trump. "We know what's best for you, you're gonna regret it if you don't vote our way." Michael Moore's estimation of what the British people think after Brexit is nonsense too. Almost everyone would vote the same way if the referendum were held again as polls have shown.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Actually, it makes me happy to see the millenials speaking out. I think many of them didn't take it seriously enough, and now this is the result. Since we're so fond of maps and graphics here, I saw one that indicated that if only millenials had voted, it would have been overwhelmingly blue.

This is why the voting age should be raised to 21, 25 or even 30. Why is everyone voting only one way considered good? Because it aligns with how you vote? People need to step out of their own bubble more and consider both sides of the argument.

Yesterday's broadcast of a political debate show here in the UK was shocking. The only thing a woman from the Labour party could say was pretty much what social justice warriors always say. Telling you how to behave and what you should think and not talking policies that can improve people's lives. This is a total waste of time in politics at the moment. I used to be a member of the labour party and always voting for them. How they are behaving now is appealing to many youngsters but it will not win them elections.

I would argue many youngsters are completely uninformed these days. Over here, people were whining about 16 and 17 year olds not getting the brexit vote. The outcome wouldn't have been different regardless.
People who think they are clever because they have a degree, are at university or doing well at high school do not necessarily have common sense to behave in a rational manner. There is nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. But burning flags, smashing cars, looting are hardly the actions from people who peacefully vote and really believed in "Love Trumps Hate".

There were even riot "Ads" found on Craigslist and there is evidence some were bussed into the cities. There is evidence that George Soros has bankrolled Black Lives Matter in the past. Another beauty. Protesting in the name of criminals quite often. The FBI ought to investigate Soros. This rioting will only make inner cities worse. Indeed I find millennials who do this quite stupid because they are themselves then to blame for the lack of opportunities if businesses leave their cities because the owners don't feel safe because of these actions.

No-one cared enough about the failings of foreign wars and weapon supplies (including Libya which can mostly be attributed to Hillary Clinton) or the Islamic terrorist attacks to take to the street. No instead it's about someone's character, or someone's words they don't agree with. And many of that has been indoctrinated, taken out of context via the main stream media. Millennials happy to protest because of that? Marxism, propaganda and inciting violence at its worst.

Anyway those are my final thoughts. I'm sure there will be further attempts at rebuttals.

[AndrewG]

Thought this was pretty good from a UK POV.

YouTube Video

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Keep giving people that disagree with you on issues these labels and see what happens. Everything you say just becomes hot air after a while and the labels become useless.
"I think when it comes to immigration that.."
"RACIST!"
"I'm not sure about the bathroom..."
"HOMOPHOBE!"
Rosie O donnell vs Donald Trump
Rosie:"He annoys me on a multitude of levels," she said. "He’s the moral authority! Left the first wife, had an affair, left the second wife, had an affair, had kids both times but he’s the moral compass for 20-year-olds in America. Donald sit and spin my friend. I don't enjoy him. This is not a self made man"

Trump: "a woman out of control," a "true loser," a "total train wreck," "disgusting," a "slob," "fat, ugly"

"MISOGYNIST!!"

Once again, you're focusing on the name-calling and ignoring the real issues. I really couldn't care less what he said about Rosie O'Donnell, except that it shows his character for what it is- he's a thin-skinned, reactive bully, and those are not the characteristics I want in my president. I want a president who is going to remain calm in a crisis situation and lead confidently, not pick up his phone and rant on Twitter.

If you believe there are problems with immigration, present a reasonable, rational argument, along with a realistic strategy how to fix the problem. Saying he's going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it just makes him look like bigoted Uncle Donald ranting at Thanksgiving dinner- the family just laughs at him. I laughed at Trump for real when he said he could fix all the violence that occurs in Chicago (a majority of which occurs in the African-American community) in a week- it just makes him look like a fool.

I saw a picture posted on election day of a man in a polling place wearing a shirt that said, "Put the white back in the White House"- how can that be construed as anything but racist? I'd even consider it hate speech, which is illegal in this country. The same goes for the "Whites Only" message that was found scrawled in a high school bathroom in a suburb of Chicago yesterday.

As a woman, I don't believe that my reproductive rights should be dictated by the religious right and sexist men who believe that women should remain barefoot and pregnant.

The "bathroom law" had no basis in reality, and was instead based on ignorance and fear.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Obamacare is unaffordable for many through premium hikes and lack of competition. Maybe it would be good if that gets undone indeed or radically improved. Affordable healthcare when it's unaffordable and cannot be used because of massive deductibles is a joke.

Hillary Clinton also had plans to make changes to the healthcare act; fix what is broken, don't throw out the entire thing because you don't like the administration that initiated it.

Speaking as someone who has worked in a healthcare field, privatization and competition are not necessarily good things (unless you are in the insurance business).

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Yet you completely overlook the fact that Hillary brought this issue up in the presidential debate. It thus seems you approve of this character assassination tactic.

I'm not overlooking it, and it's not a character assassination tactic- he has demonstrated his character all throughout his campaign.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Where did Trump bring up anything other than political choices and actions about Hillary during these debates? He didn't, he stayed on topic focusing on politics whilst Hillary went on a wild goose chase bringing up irrelevant nonsense from the 90s.

Please- he constantly deflected without directly answering the questions that were posed to him. That's because he doesn't really have any real answers except, "You'll see, it's gonna be great!"

Originally Posted by AndrewG

The only time he deviated was the Bill Clinton rape accusations and pedophile Hillary as a lawyer case where she got the pedophile's sentence down and she later laughed at the fact she would never believe a polygraph again, thus indicating she knew he was completely guilty. Again these were actions (some alleged), but more than just Trump's words which seems all Hillary was going after. That and taxes. Weak I think as she is just describing countless individuals in America who are not necessarily breaking any laws.

I guess it's a good thing for him she didn't bring up the child rape allegations that Trump has being levelled against him. And I think the voting public has a right to know if a presidential candidate has paid his fair share of taxes when they are asked (or rather, required by law) to do the same.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

It's not only Trump who has written bad things on Twitter and I'm sure he will be more presidential from January 20th onwards.

Not unless they literally take it away from him, and it's already too late- the damage has been done.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

you cannot have the situation where as soon as a woman shouts rape everyone should lose their jobs.

You also cannot have a situation where when women do report it they are immediately branded a liar and threatened with lawsuits. That and similar reasons are why women do not come forward in the first place.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Trump had the backing of almost all police forces, army generals and border patrol etc. This is telling.

The same police forces that are now being accused of rampant corruption and racism; you're right- it is telling!

Originally Posted by AndrewG

If criminality is proven in court then fair enough but my guess is this case will be settled and everyone involved will be happy.

He needs to pay back all the money that he fraudulently took from people, but he will likely find some way to weasel out of it.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

It was this kind of elitist thinking that made people go to Trump. "We know what's best for you, you're gonna regret it if you don't vote our way."

It's not elitist; I genuinely think that some people will not be happy with the consequences of this election. What's that saying about cutting off your nose just to spite your face?

Originally Posted by AndrewG

This is why the voting age should be raised to 21, 25 or even 30.

If young men can be drafted into the military at the age of 18, they should also be allowed to vote at the age of 18. If they are expected to fight and potentially die for their country, they should have some say in how it is governed.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Why is everyone voting only one way considered good? Because it aligns with how you vote? People need to step out of their own bubble more and consider both sides of the argument.

In the way that you're considering both sides?

I didn't say that voting only one way is good. I said that if more young people voted, the results might have been very different. Young people should care and be involved, because they are the future of the country.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

There were even riot "Ads" found on Craigslist and there is evidence some were bussed into the cities. There is evidence that George Soros has bankrolled Black Lives Matter in the past.

Maybe, but that could be fake (or planted) as well.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Anyway those are my final thoughts. I'm sure there will be further attempts at rebuttals.

"Attempts at rebuttals"? How very smug of you!

Originally Posted by CarylB

I do not expect anyone to have their rights taken away before they hold up their hand and say .. Excuse me? Those people need to make their voices heard now, will need help and support. They need our voices added to theirs, and imo we do not have the option of sitting it out without losing our humanity. The saying that all evil needs to flourish is for good men to stand by has never been more apposite.

Well said, Caryl. When the Republicans were unhappy with Obama's win, and fought him tooth and nail every step of his presidency, no one told them to unite behind him. Now we are being told to just suck it up and deal with it- how is that fair? I fear that great harm can come to my country at the hands of these individuals, and I believe I have a right, if not a duty, to say and/or do something about it.

[duke knooby]

This thread seems to have a better more grown up debate than most of the presidential campaigns had.

[Wario]

its more surprising people not even in this country make more sense.