mlukfc.com Forums mlukfc.com
Meat Loaf UK Fanclub 
PO BOX 148 
Cheadle Hulme 
Cheshire SK8 6WN 
Go Back   mlukfc.com » mlukfc.com Forums » Life » Off Topic

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09 Nov 2016, 05:36   #1
Adje
trying to be realistic
 
Join Date: 28.09.2007
Location:  
Posts: 1,957
Default I'll be the first to call it

Trump will be the next President of the United States.
Adje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09 Nov 2016, 07:16   #2
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Totally doesn't surprise me. He had huge crowds at rallies constantly. Tim Kaine was getting less people turning up than I get at a modest birthday party. Hilary's rallies were only big when Obama turned up or when she had another celebrity.

The absolute arrogance of Hollywood, main stream media, big business (including Twitter, Facebook and Google who were clearly censoring Donald Trump and his supporters from what I saw), Bruce Springsteen (who lives in a 95% white rich area) was quite unbelievable I thought and they all underestimated their "enemy". They all insulted him. They all tried to bring him down and thought that would influence the vote. In the end I totally don't believe Trump was really their enemy. He was a voice of people who feel that they have been left behind and that the country could do better than a career politician completely intertwined with corruption.

I've read Wikileaks. And you know what? What ISNT in those emails is actually worse than what was in there. They hardly ever discussed what was going to be good for the American People. Only winning tactics and media collusion. Disgusting.

The right person won in my opinion. Trump learns fast and will not be a disaster regardless of what people think. Yeah stocks are going down somewhat. So what. Bankers perhaps lose out in the mean time. The same bankers everyone hated in 2008 for creating inflated bubbles.. A successful large country cannot simply rely on financial services only and Clinton was the absolute front of that.

Again I want to remind anyone reading this that almost the only adult in the entire celebrity establishment seemed to be Meat Loaf.
U2, Lady Gaga, Springsteen, George Clooney and others behaved like morons. Trying to take away people's choices. Ie don't do that or you're a racist etc.
If they REALLY thought Clinton was great, fine by me, go campaign for her (I still don't see why a politician needs rock concerts etc but whatever and Jayz Beyoncé were paid millions apparently). What they almost all did is to constantly focus on Trump was wrong and childish. Trump is not ~~~~~~ no matter how often you say it. When he puts his mind to things he is mostly successful. Sure out of the 100 ventures he has dabbled in he has had missteps. Considering only 1 in 10 businesses succeed his ratio isn't bad at all. You don't just become a billionaire through sleeping. He gets up at 5am everyday. That's a lot earlier than me.

Trump is no angel however, sure. Rude alpha male at times and sure he likes beautiful women. I don't believe he ever grabbed women that didn't want it. In the private recording he was talking about what women let celebs do whether you agree with it or not. Up to him and the women in his life. He never insulted Clintons supporters. Clinton did insult his supporters. These things are significant.

Also people should realise actions (corruption) speak louder than words.

Finally I honestly believe a government isn't there to make me feel good. I want it to uphold law and order, uphold constitutions, organise trade deals, strife for peace and good international relations, indeed keep me safe through borders if that's possible and never forget it is there to represent the common person who pays for the government. Of course a modest welfare programme is necessary but I honestly think socialism doesn't work. It promotes bad behaviour (why should I work etc or do better). Look at Venezuela and other South American countries where far left doesn't seem to work and gets people stuck in a vicious circle. Americans don't want this, that is clear. Back to basics isn't always a bad thing I reckon. We did it with Brexit to a certain extent and I honestly do believe the EU will collapse because of its own arrogance and beaucracy. A union of countries with open borders which have such differences between salaries and unemployment is total nonsense.

Obama: "if the UK leaves the EU, you'll be at the back of the queue for trade"
Trump: "The UK will be the first in the queue"

For the UK this positive attitude is I think much better than scare mongering from the establishment.

On another forum I was called an idiot for pointing the disconnect out from celebs in advance. Perhaps liberals / the left / social justice warriors will do some soul searching and stop insulting people as an idiot or racist so quickly whoever disagrees with their politics.

Glad there were more mature convos on this forum.

Last edited by AndrewG; 09 Nov 2016 at 08:05.
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
4 Users Like This Post.
Old 09 Nov 2016, 11:19   #3
ashkent7
Super Loafer
 
Join Date: 02.12.2010
Location:  Durham,UK
Posts: 338
Default

I knew by midnight. Exactly the same "oh it's only the first few" attitude that Brexit had when the first few results came in.

But in a time when the prime attitude of America is often seen as smug and self righteous...they now have their perfect face.

The future just ain't what it used to be eh.

At least we should get to see the Bat Musical get its release before he finds the button - although Adje may say that isn't necessarily a plus point
ashkent7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09 Nov 2016, 14:37   #4
Adje
trying to be realistic
 
Join Date: 28.09.2007
Location:  
Posts: 1,957
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashkent7 View Post
At least we should get to see the Bat Musical get its release before he finds the button - although Adje may say that isn't necessarily a plus point
Ahh thank you. I needed some good news!
Adje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09 Nov 2016, 15:09   #5
Sue K
Mega Loafer
 
Join Date: 20.04.2003
Posts: 13,041
Red face I woke up not dead this morning...

Life will go one... We lived through Nixon ... Donovan on the juke at the moment... laaa deee daaaa... laaa deee daaa ... back to living in my own little world... peace out ... oh and coffee... I still have coffee... and internet connection and cable tv... yes... turned OFF... lol ...

oh dear... there goes my calm ... lol ... at 8:10am est I've just received a call from a person of the lilting sing-song voice.. saying they're calling from Windows... etc... After a bit of mild chastising I bid her "peace peace peace" and take me off the call list.. I get this call about once a week... heyyyyyy... Maybe with his SECOND hour in office Trump could stop THOSE !!!... snirt ...Now that would be sayin' something.. oh... peace peace.. back to calm ....

Last edited by Sue K; 09 Nov 2016 at 15:15.
Sue K is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 05:47   #6
Julie in the rv mirror
Spirit in the Night
 
Join Date: 23.07.2008
Location:  On the edge of town (in the Darkness...)
Posts: 1,559
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
U2, Lady Gaga, Springsteen, George Clooney and others behaved like morons. Trying to take away people's choices. Ie don't do that or you're a racist etc.
If they REALLY thought Clinton was great, fine by me, go campaign for her (I still don't see why a politician needs rock concerts etc but whatever and Jayz Beyoncé were paid millions apparently). What they almost all did is to constantly focus on Trump was wrong and childish. Trump is not ~~~~~~ no matter how often you say it. When he puts his mind to things he is mostly successful. Sure out of the 100 ventures he has dabbled in he has had missteps. Considering only 1 in 10 businesses succeed his ratio isn't bad at all. You don't just become a billionaire through sleeping. He gets up at 5am everyday. That's a lot earlier than me.
How on earth were celebrities "trying to take away people's choices"?! That's a ridiculous statement. I didn't see Bruce or Gaga using intimidation tactics at the polls, unlike some of Trump's supporters. He is a billionaire who has lost billions and declared bankruptcy on more than one occasion- hardly a person I would trust to improve the economy. Perhaps he should be sleeping at night instead of engaging in a Twitter war at 3 am over ex- beauty pageant contestants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
Trump is no angel however, sure. Rude alpha male at times and sure he likes beautiful women. I don't believe he ever grabbed women that didn't want it.
Well, this sexist, misogynistic statement says a lot...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
He never insulted Clintons supporters. Clinton did insult his supporters. These things are significant.
No, he just advocated physical violence against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
Finally I honestly believe a government isn't there to make me feel good. I want it to uphold law and order, uphold constitutions, organise trade deals, strife for peace and good international relations, indeed keep me safe through borders if that's possible and never forget it is there to represent the common person who pays for the government.
I want those things as well; I don't believe Trump will do those things. I do not believe he will protect the rights of ALL the citizens of my country. I do not feel safe with that man representing my country to the world. He doesn't speak for me.

I can't wait until Trump's supporters realize how they were duped and lied to- he's not going to come through on his unrealistic promises. It will be very interesting to see what happens then.
Julie in the rv mirror is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Dislikes This Post.
4 Users Like This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 10:55   #7
CarylB
Mega Loafer
 
Join Date: 16.04.2003
Location: Sheffield UK
Posts: 5,910
Default

Agree with you Julie.

One thing in Andrew's post I can agree with .. it's not helpful or reasonable to label all those who were supporting Trump as idiots or racists, even if some were. Most of of those who voted for him I think will have done so despite the fact that he said (perhaps even believes) repellent things, not because of it. They had a belief that the system is fundamentally broken and that Hillary Clinton would have been more of the same. Trump rode a wave of support from people who've spent the last eight years watching terrifying nightly news reports about ISIS and mass shootings and riots. They look outside and see painkiller addicts and closed factories. They believe that nobody in Washington gives a crap about them, and they have a point.

Trump said what people wanted to hear .. You want change? I'll deliver it. I am the one who can deliver jobs, negotiate our debts down, put the Chinese in their place etc Don't like Obama care? I'll scrap it and replace it with something different and better. And then for some he said I'll stop Muslims coming in, kick illegals out, build a wall, stop taking in refugees etc Those who didn't endorse these last promises were I think prepared to overlook them because the others were so appealing.

Half the country did not vote for Trump, and many who did are not racist, bigoted, anti LGBT. You still have more positive, open-minded and progressive people than not. He seems to have no clear strategies or plans to deliver any of his promises. He'll have a busy two months and still won't have them for all .. because he'll probably find some, perhaps many, of his notions are not so easily workable. I agree with Julie .. many of his promises are unrealistic. My hope is that he will have to concentrate on the ones that the majority of his supporters gave him their vote for, rather than those he offered to the ones who are simply bigoted .. and these latter are the ones with beliefs I do not think the majority of Americans espouse. (A small part of me wonders how much he really meant those which are horrendous, how much he simply used them as a lever to get the support of a tranche of the electorate.)

There will arguably be an increase in racial tension and other forms of unpleasantness, but American society is resilient, diverse and fundamentally decent, even if some of it is currently trying to prove the opposite. He will be constrained in what he can do at home even by a Senate with a majority and a GOP dominated Congress, by the courts and various other checks and balances. There are fewer impediments to Presidential power in foreign policy. As so much of Trump’s domestic programme depends on what he does abroad, the rest of us will be as, if not more, exposed than Americans themselves.

His vindictive, xenophobic, and bullying style are likely to encourage a rougher exchange between countries on world issues. He is not a win:win negotiator, but one who views a good deal as imposing his will on others; a limited and belligerent idea of what makes successful diplomatic negotiations. He is quick to anger, not good at managing it. He espouses trusting his instincts and not overthinking things, and has already indicated that he will not listen to advisors .. on foreign policy he said “I’m speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain and I’ve said a lot of things.” Many of his intentions would unravel the fabric of international society carefully woven over the past six decades or so. It may well make the Korean Peninsula or the Gulf even more unsafe.

He is hostile to the EU, although his style will appeal to the far right like the French Front National. He may well have more enthusiasm for the UK now it is leaving the EU, but his attitude and intentions towards NATO together with his admiration for Putin, the single greatest threat to the stability of the European order, could leave Europe on its own to stand against Russia and defend Western values worldwide, and whether we are in or out of the EU we are part of NATO and still geographically part of Europe. And if he builds his "wall" .. will we see that replicate in Europe? Might we see walls go up across Europe that we may not see brought down again in our lifetime? Might 1989 to 2018 become known as the between walls era?

Andrew says he honestly believes a government isn't there to make him feel good. On that basis ours is doing well then, because mine doesn't make me feel good at all, nor the homeless, nor the disabled, in order to minimise a necessary "modest welfare programme" .. 14% planned for 2017.

Julie said "I do not believe he will protect the rights of ALL the citizens of my country. I do not feel safe with that man representing my country to the world. He doesn't speak for me." I hear you. I feel less safe.
CarylB is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 13:40   #8
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror View Post
How on earth were celebrities "trying to take away people's choices"?! That's a ridiculous statement. I didn't see Bruce or Gaga using intimidation tactics at the polls, unlike some of Trump's supporters. He is a billionaire who has lost billions and declared bankruptcy on more than one occasion- hardly a person I would trust to improve the economy. Perhaps he should be sleeping at night instead of engaging in a Twitter war at 3 am over ex- beauty pageant contestants.
Actually I think your statement is ridiculous and uninformed.

Bruce Springsteen calling Trump "a moron" is hardly a green light towards his own fans that they should consider the policies of both candidates but he thinks one is better because of such and such. George Clooney also behaved like a child by proclaiming "There is not going to be a president Trump, nah we are not going to go down this path." It is not solely up to George and Bruce or any celeb who becomes president. It is up to the people in the entire country and going by the electoral college votes they overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Yes I think the elitist behaviour shown by Bruce / George and the celebs who claimed they would move to Canada if Trump won were trying to use their celeb status to influence people's minds to the point "don't vote for that because that is not really an option".

If you have countless of business ideas and companies of course some will fail yes. He came from an era before you could make billions from a single online idea. What Trump has tried over his lifetime is probably far more difficult than what Larry Page, Mark Zuckerberg or a Jack Dorsey have done I would argue. His businesses have dealt with services, properties and physical products. All very competitive and most businesses in all these sectors fail.

The Alicia Machado case was the most ridiculous strategy of the corrupt DNC campaign. A woman who was a getaway driver at a robbery, had a drug dealing boyfriend and had sex on a big brother style show (knowing that cameras are watching her). And I should feel sorry for her because Trump called her fat or miss piggy? In 1998/99 he tried for a while to get her to lose weight and defended her (See video of him talking to reporters and saying "well we all like to eat right, I like it too so this is something we are going to deal with with Alicia" if you really care). If you go into the industry of modelling then don't be surprised you will lose your job or get bad comments if you don't look after your body. If this harsh reality is too much for a snowflake to take don't enter a beauty pageant. Am I supposed to be impressed by Hillary Clinton who thinks THIS is more important to bring up in a presidential debate rather than Isis beheading countless of people or the immigration problem caused by overthrowing Gadaffi (another Hillary special) or dealing with Islamic terrorist attacks in the US and beyond? Come on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror View Post
Well, this sexist, misogynistic statement says a lot...
Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror View Post
No, he just advocated physical violence against them.
DNC paid protestors $1500 and an iPhone each. If you care about physical violence / dirty election tactics / pay for play / collusion and corruption you only need to read around 1% of the Podesta Wikileaks emails to see it is an absolute blessing that Hillary Clinton didn't win. How they destroyed Bernie Sanders (see emails) and then asked for his support is absolutely disgusting. His legacy is ruined all to try to get Hillary in the White House, that is the only thing they cared about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror View Post
I want those things as well; I don't believe Trump will do those things. I do not believe he will protect the rights of ALL the citizens of my country. I do not feel safe with that man representing my country to the world. He doesn't speak for me.

I can't wait until Trump's supporters realize how they were duped and lied to- he's not going to come through on his unrealistic promises. It will be very interesting to see what happens then.
Well if Trump sucks in 4 years your country can do this all again.
What I find disturbing instead of Trump winning, is the fact there are millions in the US who seem eager for him to fail. Sad. Young "protestors" now burning the stars and stripes outside of Trump tower and wanting a Hillary win is something the Hillary supporters should think about. It is no good having people like that on your side, it reeks of anti USA, anti patriotism and frankly self loathing. Oh and don't bring up the David Duke thing in defence. Hillary has KKK supporters too. It is meaningless. The main stream media doesn't seem to get by shoving their support for Hillary down people's throats and covering for her lies the voters got sick of it and seeked unbiased information on Trump via online sources. Thank goodness for the internet.

In 4 years hopefully the DNC will come up with a candidate who is not being investigated by the FBI and who wants to improve the lives of Americans rather than just try to run a default winning strategy of "I am the woman so I deserve to win". The sympathy and feminist strategies used by Hillary backfired and rightly so. When she jokes around feeling intimidated by Trump suppossedly stalking her on the stage during the 2nd presidential debate (he didn't, she walked into his space constantly), this is a sign of complete weakness. Subconsciously voters were asking "Hmm and she is going to defend this country and that scared her?"

When some of the supporters of Hillary are as stupid as this guy it's quite obvious why she lost:
https://twitter.com/Austin_Barbour/s...65692954931200

Last edited by AndrewG; 10 Nov 2016 at 14:22.
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Dislikes This Post.
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 14:51   #9
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Just saw this on Twitter and perhaps it is a good summary:

Resonating comment from Peter Thiel: the media took Trump literally and not seriously while voters took him seriously and not literally.
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 15:21   #10
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Interesting media analysis from a biased Hillary supporting channel.

https://twitter.com/Morning_Joe/stat...96626366533632
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 Nov 2016, 16:02   #11
MarkS
Super Loafer
 
Join Date: 20.03.2012
Posts: 312
Default

This doesn't apply to all democrats, but it does apply to most of the vocal majority of democrats that get news time.
MarkS is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Like This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 17:17   #12
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Clinton campaign manager just compared the Trump win to day after 9/11.

Exaggeration much?

Why they are still wheeling these people out on the main stream media is frankly incredible.
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 Nov 2016, 17:20   #13
Adje
trying to be realistic
 
Join Date: 28.09.2007
Location:  
Posts: 1,957
Default

So what happened?

My view of things on Trump's election.

Many things are involved here. First the current President. Agree or disagree with his policies but Obama has showed to be a President that based his decisions on what HE truly believed was the best for America. No scandals, no corruption. He was a gentleman in the White House. And people love him for that.

That did raise problems for Hillary Clinton though. If an honest person like Obama was not able to do what so many hoped he would do (and thus disapoint many Americans) why would Hillary be any different? How would America change for the ones that are very disapointed. The answer is simple. She couldn't.

Trump on the other hand had the advantage of this. So he used his campagne to play into that. And he did succeed.

In camp Hillary many underestimated how much she/the Clintons are hated and to get the votes of these people she needed to come up with a campagne that would take away of this feeling and show how capable she would be. And for a long time she succeeded.

I do believe that she had the momentum until the FBI got involved with the email return. Don't get me wrong, I don't say Hillary would have won if the FBI didn't suddenly decide to go public a week ago, but it did stop the momentum she had. And it was very obvious that the decision to come out with this 2nd investigation was a political decision. More so after the outcome of the 2nd investigation. It was intend to harm Hillary Clinton. It's a shame we now will never know how much that influenced the election but you can count on it that unhappy people that considered Hillary did change their mind after this.

Then there is another issue people underestimated. Too many voters are angry, scared and hateful. And the demonisation of Trump did not help that. Maybe even made it worse. Here is a guy playing into their fear and anger and all the media did was demolish the guy for so many things that they forgot what it is all really about.

One thing I've learned is that making a decision on emotion is never the wise decision. But this is what happened. People were angy, scared and had a guy playing into this emotions while being insulted by the media all the time. It created a bond.

During his campaign Trump, according to fact checks, has lied about 70% of the things he said. And non of the voters cared about the lies. They just wanted to hear the stuff they felt so strong about. In fact, according to some Dutch programms I saw, many actually believed the lies to be true. U.S. media missed an oportunity here. They should have made the fact checks more in the picture but instead they went after the pussy grabbing stuff.

Hillary, on the other hand whad another problem: Bernie suporters. Many of them didn't want to vote Hillary as she was part of the establishment and she didn't get Bernie enough involved in her campagn to get those people to vote for her. She just trusted them to vote for the democratic nominee when the moment called for it.

Trump on the other hand was smart enough to get non voters to expose their anger by voting against the Crooked establishment (he called it Crooked Hillary but it was clearly intended on all politicians).

So this is what happened. Many voters aren't willing to watch to the entire picture but to their situation only. Hillary would have been a better leader with focus on many items. Trump knew how to play into personal situations better and won a lot of votes there.

And this is where the polls went wrong. All major pollers only polled the people who voted in the past, denying the ones that didn't. Also they polled by phone where many were reluctant to admit they would vote for Trump (there was on poll team that predicted the outcome. They polled through the more anonymous internet and they polled people that didn't vote before) and thus the Clinton team and democrats who are not a fan of CLinton but figured she would beat Trump were blindsided. Leaving many anti-Trump voters at home. Basically because the polls showed that he wouldn't make a chance.

My personal thoughts:
I disagree with Andrew about his vision of Trump. I do believe that Trump is the worst choice. For a few very simple reasons. If you look back into the life of Trump he isn't that succesful as he claimed and the succes he did gain has always been over the back of the people that trusted him. Don't forget that, by the time he started the Apprentice show, his empire was in huge debt and about to crumble and the Apprentice succes did redeem him. Also the many investigations and lawsuits against his corruption are too much to deny. Trump has cheated his way out of so many issues and there are still lawsuits open.

Everything Trump has ever done has been about Trump. There is no denying that the man is a narcistic person. This was known about him 20 years ago, it never changed and even his entire way to the election has showed he is.
He also is a populist. He doesn't care about the truth but what sounds good. In the history of elections there has never been a candidate that has been so dishonest about the issues as Trump was.

So, in my opinion this is why I think the outcome of the U.S. elections are bad.

People voted, not by head but by Heart. (not all, but many many did) and as I explained earlier, it's not good to make a decision based on emotion. It forgets you to see the bigger picture, it makes you blind for reality and it stops you from comparing issues. Also, the Hate for the Clintons has been so inmense that many votes have been protest votes against Hillary Clinton. And believe me, voting for a candidate because you hate the oponent doesn't necersarily mean you made the right decision.

Also, Trump has proven himself to be a populist. And history has thought us over and over again what that means for society. Of course it's to hope that Trump will find good advisors in his team (and that he for once listens to them) and I'm sure the World will not get blown up because he is President, but I don't think the World will become a better place under President Trump. Sure there will people and even countries that will benefit. But not because it is right for America but because Trump cares about one thing only, the Trump name.

So would things have been better under Hillary? NO! And I want to make this also clear. The answer is a big NO.

Under Hillary things would have been merely the same as they are now, only with a person in the White House that would be less trusted than the current President. Too many things are not right in the U.S. and Hillary would not have been able to change that. Hillary in the White House would have created more of the same and basically a status quo, that is bad for many American citizens.

It was a choise between two bads. I only think that the worst of both was the one that outsmarted them all.

I will make this prediction. In 4 years the Democrats will get a President in the White House again. This time, in 2016, anger and fear decided the outcome and in 4 years many of the current voters will be so disapointed that they won't vote anymore.

One more thing that I want to make clear. Not ALL Trump voters handled out of the anger and fear and hate I was talking about. But many of them did. At least many enough to give him the edge. Most of those voters didn't vote for Romney (or Obama for that matter) but felt they had a reason to come out this time and cast their vote. There also have been many Republicans who either just voted for their party nominee or because they do see potential in Trump.

In all honesty, I am worried. Trump doesn't have the diplomacy of Obama and there is so much at stake in the U.S. and the World. Trump, in the past and during this election, has shown himself to be a loose canon. And I can't see how that is good. This isn't some Hollywood movie.

That said, he has the weight of an entire country on his shoulders now and I hope he handles that with care. He might not have been my choice, but now that he is elected he is the person that I wish strength and all the best during the Presidency, the people have voted. And it is time that Hillary suporters start to acknowledge their loss. Trump will be the next President and, like it or not, he is also your President. I read and hear about demonstrations and riots. It doesn't make this election undone. It's time to take your loss and continue with your life! Everybody was so shocked when Republicans said they would not accept the outcome of the election if Trump lost. But, people, isn't that what the democratic demonstrants are doing right now? Something about the pot calling the kettle black?
Adje is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Like This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 17:25   #14
MarkS
Super Loafer
 
Join Date: 20.03.2012
Posts: 312
Default

The main stream media was obsessed with securing a Clinton victory, hell several of them were nearly tearing up as trump closed the night.

A lot of voters were turned off by the blatant media bias and the refusal to properly cover wikileaks and other things that would harm Clinton. A large chuck of voters turned to the alternative media for some real answers.

It also didn't help that Clinton has spent her entire career mired in one scandal or another. She also showed herself to be completely out of touch with the middle class which was the deciding factor in this election. The leaked emails from Clinton campaign brass should have been enough to turn anybody off quite frankly
MarkS is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Dislikes This Post.
2 Users Like This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 17:30   #15
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

This Ben Page guy is pollster. No wonder the polls get it wrong. Not only are journalists determined to shove their already written news narratives down people's throats, even pollsters are. Absolutely incredible.

AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 Nov 2016, 17:33   #16
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Maybe 35+ years of Bushes and Clintons at the top of America's helm was enough for some people. I tend to agree.

Now some are wanting Michelle Obama to run for 2020.
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 17:35   #17
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS View Post
The main stream media was obsessed with securing a Clinton victory, hell several of them were nearly tearing up as trump closed the night.
I switched to RT news on the night of the election and their reporting seemed very unbiased. They even had Larry King on there.

I wouldn't trust them for any news regarding Russia though.

But the internet is indeed a great alternative source for information now. Some alternative internet based journalists / pundits even refuse interviews with BBC and Sky now as they see it as beneath them.
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 17:44   #18
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS View Post
The main stream media was obsessed with securing a Clinton victory, hell several of them were nearly tearing up as trump closed the night.

A lot of voters were turned off by the blatant media bias and the refusal to properly cover wikileaks and other things that would harm Clinton. A large chuck of voters turned to the alternative media for some real answers.

It also didn't help that Clinton has spent her entire career mired in one scandal or another. She also showed herself to be completely out of touch with the middle class which was the deciding factor in this election. The leaked emails from Clinton campaign brass should have been enough to turn anybody off quite frankly
How anybody can dislike this comment is incredible. It is not even a comment, it is fact. Jeez....
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 17:44   #19
Adje
trying to be realistic
 
Join Date: 28.09.2007
Location:  
Posts: 1,957
Default

BTW one more thing I want to add.

The U.S. is a very very divided country at this time. And, no matter who would have won, the next President is under a magnifying glass. This is also not going to help this country. The next President (any President) will have to make decisions that do not work out for everybody. And in the current state things can escalate very fast.

In that matter I do think that it's not in general interest that the House, the Senate and the White House have complete majority (neither for Democrats nor Republicans). There always should be some balance and in the U.S. that balance is currently gone. You must hope that decisions are made with the biggest consideration but the truth of the matter is, you can't do anything about it if it's not. And that should be scary for every citizen!

BTW that is all I have to say about this election and discussion. No use to debate it anymore. It's settled and only the future will tell who was right.
Adje is offline   Reply With Quote
2 Users Like This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 18:03   #20
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adje View Post
The U.S. is a very very divided country at this time.
I don't think the US is divided at all.


The blue team should simply understand they don't get to say who is in charge all the time. When they lose an election because the blue team got smaller they should accept it.

The red team didn't go off their heads when the blue team won in 2008 and 2012. In fact the last protests I can recall was when George W. Bush won. Again the blue team seems to struggle with the red team winning. Hmmm, and aren't they supposed to be the more "tolerant" ones?

The main stream media and the education establishments have a duty to inform rather than create a narrative where patriotism and limiting immigration (certainly limiting ILLEGAL immigration) are somehow filthy things. There are very valid reasons for patriotism and limiting immigration but the young and uninformed are not hearing them and simply think anyone who wants to limit immigration is a 1930s/1940s German dictator. Black lives matter (bankrolled by George Soros) has created a narrative that states somehow all cops are racists when in fact more white people are shot by police in the USA than African Americans.

Finally when it comes to reasons to limit immigration consider this graph.


This doesn't mean I don't want to see the 3rd world prosper. Instead it would be best sometimes if the strongest of that population stays there instead of moves to the first world so quickly and that we try to help them to do better over there. I think that would be a solution to a better world. Opening the doors like what Merkel did is easy but it doesn't seem to work that well even if she can sleep better at night thinking she has done a great thing.

My final argument:
At the back of people's minds I'm sure there is law and order (almost all law enforcement unions backed Trump). People could see the country not heading in the right direction with Obama. A nation of sympathy, feels, unlimited illegal immigration, exporting all manufacturing jobs, unlimited benefits, in fact socialism (eventually rewarding bad behaviour - see south America where this continually fails) is not what the United States of America was based on at all. Freedom meant you had to work for your living given liberties but you had to follow law and order.
When the Americans saw the FBI didn't uphold law and order when it came to Hillary Clinton's email scandal (people got put away for doing much less in the past) and saw that she somehow was above the law, the people in the USA took justice in their own hands; at the ballot box.

Last edited by AndrewG; 10 Nov 2016 at 18:17.
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 Nov 2016, 18:13   #21
CarylB
Mega Loafer
 
Join Date: 16.04.2003
Location: Sheffield UK
Posts: 5,910
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
It is up to the people in the entire country and going by the electoral college votes they overwhelmingly voted for Trump.
Certainly he won more electoral college votes, but that does not mean individuals overwhelmingly voted for him. The popular vote was pretty evenly split, with Clinton just ahead I think. The EC institution has long been seen by many as a vestigial remnant of a bygone era. In public opinion polls, Americans of all political affiliations support a direct presidential election. Trump himself leveled a critique in 2012, calling it "a disaster for democracy". Its the system, and he certainly had a clear and conclusive win based on that .. but it doesn't equate with an overwhelming number of people's votes.

Quote:
Young "protestors" now burning the stars and stripes outside of Trump tower and wanting a Hillary win is something the Hillary supporters should think about. It is no good having people like that on your side, it reeks of anti USA, anti patriotism and frankly self loathing.
Burning flags, violence, riots are bad, counter-productive and do those involved no credit or service.

There have also been numerous peaceful protests by people carrying candles, not angrily shouting, and not exclusively young. There are many people in the USA who see some of his major platforms as directly countering the social progress it has taken years to achieve, some of whom would be very directly affected if he strode into office and started to dismantle it. There are gay couples who fear their marriages may become unlawful; transgenders who have heard mixed messages from Trump during the campaign, but who are aware of Pence signing an expansive anti-LGBT measure into law, and that the Republican party at large has made its near-total opposition to trans rights clear (Republicans are also poised to repeal the Affordable Care Act, and with it, an anti-bias measure that prevented many health insurance plans from discriminating against trans policy holders); women who fear the removal of choice, even the possibility of imprisonment; Muslims who fear they will be regarded with suspicion, even restrictions, or who do not see family members being able to join them; Americans who feel compassion for refugees and want their country to offer a safe haven; there are also Mexicans who entered the country illegally seeking a better life, who have settled, had children born Americans, who face fearful uncertainty.

Sections of the American people are concerned, many are fearful. Peaceful protests aimed at sending a clear signal that turning back, dismantling the progress fought for and achieved will be resisted and is not acceptable, are both valid and important in my view; a signal sent to the President elect and to the Senate and Congress who have to approve domestic policies and law. People know the balance of power in both is Republican now, but there will come the mid-term elections.

Quote:
.... Trump suppossedly stalking her on the stage during the 2nd presidential debate (he didn't, she walked into his space constantly) ..
I don't know which channel you watched live, but I'm sorry, he did, and she didn't, at all; she did what simple manners dictate most people do when their opponent is speaking, sat on the stool provided He walked around continuously as she was speaking, and many times walked up to stand right behind her. Somewhere on a scale between bizarre and menacing behaviour, but I think aiming to distract speaker and audience and indicative imo of his game show gamesmanship, and doubtless prompted them to put the behind lecterns at the final debate.
CarylB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 Nov 2016, 18:15   #22
Adje
trying to be realistic
 
Join Date: 28.09.2007
Location:  
Posts: 1,957
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
I don't think the US is divided at all.
I know you're gloating and I hope you're being sarcastic otherwise it's a really dumb statement.

Quote:
On the morning after election night, Ms Clinton had collected 59.4 million votes, giving her a 47.7 per cent share, while Mr Trump had 59.2 million votes and a 47.5 per cent share. That was with around 92 per cent of the vote counted, with many of the remaining votes to be totted up from pro-Clinton states like Colorado.
Basically it's a 50/50 situation. You can't have it more divided than that. But not only is it almost 50/50 (Basically most elections in the U.S. are very close when it comes to popular votes) but the mindstate of both sides are so far apart from each other that it's impossible to deny.
Adje is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 18:24   #23
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adje View Post
I know you're gloating and I hope you're being sarcastic otherwise it's a really dumb statement.
I'm not gloating at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adje View Post
Basically it's a 50/50 situation. You can't have it more divided than that. But not only is it almost 50/50 (Basically most elections in the U.S. are very close when it comes to popular votes) but the mindstate of both sides are so far apart from each other that it's impossible to deny.
This is why they have the electoral college system which simply means California and New York do not decide everything. It is a union of different states do not forget.

Also even if you think California and New York should have the final say and you always agree with the views of the people from there consider that these two states are financially in the top 10 worst performers out of all 50 nation states. ...and they keep voting left hoping for what exactly?
https://www.mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 Nov 2016, 18:27   #24
CarylB
Mega Loafer
 
Join Date: 16.04.2003
Location: Sheffield UK
Posts: 5,910
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
How anybody can dislike this comment is incredible. It is not even a comment, it is fact. Jeez....
As at some point most facts have to be interpreted by a person who is swayed by their own perception, experiences and views, perhaps she has a different perception, and is exercising her right to disagree?

And Adje is right .. that map does not represent popular vote which is fairly equally divided, and in each of those states there will be many who voted for each party, so of course there will be divisions.

Last edited by CarylB; 10 Nov 2016 at 19:15.
CarylB is offline   Reply With Quote
1 User Likes This Post.
Old 10 Nov 2016, 18:36   #25
AndrewG
I hope your salmon sucks!
 
Join Date: 18.01.2004
Location:  Northamptonshire
Posts: 7,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarylB View Post
Certainly he won more electoral college votes, but that does not mean individuals overwhelmingly voted for him. The popular vote was pretty evenly split, with Clinton just ahead I think. The EC institution has long been seen by many as a vestigial remnant of a bygone era. In public opinion polls, Americans of all political affiliations support a direct presidential election. Trump himself leveled a critique in 2012, calling it "a disaster for democracy". Its the system, and he certainly had a clear and conclusive win based on that .. but it doesn't equate with an overwhelming number of people's votes.
If he said that then I completely disagree with him on it.

It would be like Germany, the UK and France deciding everything in the EU (pretty much what has been happening ). Hence the resentment of people in the UK, a lot of people in The Netherlands, Italy, Greece and eastern European countries with Merkel's recent open door policy. Just because the population in one country is high doesn't mean in a union the others shouldn't be heard at all.

I'm glad we have a the constituency system in the UK. If the EU referendum was based on that we would be leaving even faster.

There are reasons for the electoral college system in the US and constituencies in the UK. A full simple body count in democracy doesn't work perfectly because of geographical reasons. As a simple stupid example a democracy of 2 wolves and a sheep isn't fair either. The wolves would have a 66% say on that the sheep gets eaten.
AndrewG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:53.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - mlukfc.com
Made by R.

Page generated in 0.16245 seconds with 16 queries.