Recent Events

[R.]

Originally Posted by stretch37

My proposal: Treat this forum as if your sitting in a room full of MLUKFC members and Meat is sitting at the head of the table. And he is listening to everything that is discussed.

Even better, try to imagine to talk to the person in question face to face. Would you or anybody else really say that what you are about to post to the person standing or sitting opposite to you?

[daveake]

Originally Posted by R.

Even better, try to imagine to talk to the person in question face to face.

Well, I'm imagining that Pudding is right in front of me, and it seems to be having the opposite effect ...

[Rage Against]

Originally Posted by Evil One

I've had this said about my posts before and there really is no strategy behind them, although that doesn't stop others from inventing one.

Fair enough, Evil One. Maybe Pudding can PM me with his thoughts on my post so we don't go off topic.

[Rage Against]

This thread can really be productive, if we keep in mind both sides bear some blame. If neither side attacks or insults, problem solved. And I like Stretch's and R's ideas.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by ianmar

It is rare for an artist to connect with his fans in the way that Meat does here, and I'm very happy that he does, but he should be coming on here and having fun with people who love him whilst laughing at our ignorance. He should respect the things we like and the things we don't - because it is OUR site. Instead, he is at times being quite nasty to people who care about him. He is misinterpreting their words and calling nice people idiots and stupid, saying people "don't matter" etc. That type of criticism has started to change this board. One or two decent people have left and others, in my opinion, are becoming afraid to voice any opinions that might incur Meat's wrath. It's quite a surreal situation when the artists posts themselves are having to be removed. This is not healthy.

This is very well said, Ian. It is absolutely rare for artists to participate with their fans as Meat does, and that is one of the the things that attracted me to this place. I really do enjoy seeing his posts when they are of a positive nature. However, if that participation also gives him the "right" to say things that are quite mean, and IMO, undeserved, to people who have supported him, then, thank you, but I will pass. (And, I'm sure, will not be missed)

I am a member of several other artists' fan boards, and true, none of them interact with the fans the way Meat does, but I also do not see people on any of them being afraid to express an opinion for fear of being belittled by the artist for expressing that opinion. And trust, me, I have seen things that are way "worse" than anything that I have seen said here.

It's been suggested that we should think about what we are going to post and consider whether we would say the same thing if we were in the room with that person. I think this is good advice to a point; is my opinion any less valid because I am simply intimidated from expressing it?

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Meat already pointed out that he wears his heart on his sleeve and that that is the reason why he probably posts with so much passion and perhaps what is perceived as aggression. This is tricky as I can see it from both sides but I sure as hell hope Meat never scares a fan away, I'm sure deep down he wouldn't really want to do that.

I'm sorry Andrew, but with the language he uses, how can it be perceived as anything other than aggressive? I know of another (pretty major) artist who interacts with fans on Facebook; I've seen him "call people out" for comments, yet he manages to do it respectfully.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

how can it be perceived as anything other than aggressive?

Because most people have said something in the heat of the moment, out of pure emotion, that they do not necessarily mean to be "aggressive". The issue is that the way he writes on his posts causes people to react to his words in a large (probably undesireable) way.

Meat is 1 person out of 4,000 members. Perhaps he feels that adding emotion and anger to his statements is necessary to get his point across and have others treat him the way he would like to be treated?

[duke knooby]

Originally Posted by R.

Would you or anybody else really say that what you are about to post to the person standing or sitting opposite to you?

probably yes

great post ian btw!!

[Pudding]

Originally Posted by Rage Against

And to Pudding, I'd like to play chess or some other game of strategy with you (if I'm not doing that already). I think that would be interesting as your posts, while seemingly harmless, definitely have a strategy.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Can we please continue the thread without any unnecessary references to other forum members.

Depends what's classed as unnecessary

Originally Posted by daveake

Well, I'm imagining that Pudding is right in front of me, and it seems to be having the opposite effect ...

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by stretch37

Because most people have said something in the heat of the moment, out of pure emotion, that they do not necessarily mean to be "aggressive".

And I think most people, having done such, would apologize.

Originally Posted by stretch37

Perhaps he feels that adding emotion and anger to his statements is necessary to get his point across and have others treat him the way he would like to be treated?

IMO, it makes him look like a bully. Fear and respect are two different things.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

And I think most people, having done such, would apologize.


IMO, it makes him look like a bully. Fear and respect are two different things.

Yeah I agree that it makes him look that way. Im sure Meat does not want to be seen as a bully on his own fan forum.

That is why I suggest that fans and Meat work together to speak as if they were face-to-face on all posts all the time. Can the fans initiate that? Maybe we should vote?

[CarylB]

I don't see a need to vote. Rainer put it very well .. and it's just decent and civil behaviour. I have not seen Meat post angrily in response to anyone who has expressed a view of his work with courtesy. And when it's due he has almost invariably apologised. Most recent events .. I personally consider he had no need to apologise; in fact I was rather surprised he wasn't more angry.

I love his presence here. I have never felt intimidated, but then I don't ever feel the need to hurl criticism at him in a way that provokes a reaction. I don't feel the need to vote to behave reasonably and in consideration of Meat's or anyone else's feelings. Like Andrew I hope this does not turn into a "let's gang up on Meat Loaf" thread as he does not deserve that imo, and we don't always know what else has happened elsewhere and underpins the post we see him responding to; we may but see the tip of an iceberg on this forum.

Caryl

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I don't see a need to vote.

It was mostly a joke the point out that i dont think we need to vote.

Its just that "fair" behavior and "courtesy" are broad terms. Each person on this forum probably has a slightly different idea of both.

So, Mods and R, is there a way we can create a set of rules, in collaboration with Meat, for how fans interact with Meat, given the unique situation of our fan forum? Maybe an official guideline is needed?

Meat has been much more active on the forums in recent months and I think a new solution needs to occur to help us all leap over this particular barrier and move on. I can already see the two 'sides' beginning to argue here and I wonder if the spiral is already beginning?

[Pudding]

Meat gets given a lot of leaway because...well...he's Meat, which is fair enough I suppose, and when he's stepped well over the line R. has either edited or delete his post, which is Kudos to R.

If Meat didn't focus so much on the negatives, especially when there aren't many of them, then he'd be a more happy chappy on here.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by stretch37

So, Mods and R, is there a way we can create a set of rules for how fans interact with Meat, given the unique situation of our fan forum? Maybe an official guideline is needed.. This conflict has been going on for months and this discussion could quickly spiral down like all of the others if we don't begin to discuss some sort of solution.

That sounds absolutely ridiculous. I would hate for the freedom of speech (that we have here to a certain extent at least) to be undermined with some crazy rule book.

Meat is a human being who wears his heart on his sleeve and so are many of his fans who post here. It's most likely why we all love his music because of the raw emotion that it has and most of us are probably very emotional people. I hate to see him get upset and I hate to see a fan get upset, get insulted, whatever has gone before. It's great that this has been pointed out by someone who felt the need to break his silence but we shouldn't turn this into more than it is.
1 1/2 weeks ago Meat came on here and all hell broke loose, but then he pretty much apologised (maybe not enough for some which I can understand) but in any case he showed his vulnerability. Unfortunately then he had another go late last week and I know it wasn't justified as many will think. I hope it all does calm down for our sake and Meat's sake but let's not get too carried away with what "needs" to be done. As has been pointed out, let's all post with a bit of consideration (Meat included please if you are listening) but let's also not try to change people's personalities.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Pudding

If Meat didn't focus so much on the negatives, especially when there aren't many of them, then he'd be a more happy chappy on here.

Indeed.
He's been getting a lot of praise and that's great to see.

[allrevvedup]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I can already see the two 'sides' beginning to argue here and I wonder if the spiral is already beginning?

and there's always three sides to every story

before this starts to go the way of...well the majority of threads here

can we make sure this stays on topic?

personally i thought it was a very good post to open a thread, well thought out and pretty well balanced.

i'd love to see that be maintained...if only to give us mods less to do

"One must think like a hero to behave like a merely decent human being."
-- May Sarton

[Bubbles]

I also think this thread is an important thing for this forum here.

Then I think it's an important argument that this here is not an official forum. It is a huge difference to go to an official board and freely criticize the person or to be doing that here in my opinion.

And lastly but most importantly, yes we are merely fans discussing about things we know little or nothing about but that is what fans do.
So I for one expect a professional singer who has a long career with a lot of sucess to manage to keep his temper when reading what his sweet little fanbase thinks, maybe laugh about (as has been said before) our more or less naive opinions and move on.
Now every person now and then looses their temper, that's perfectly fine. We are all humans after all. But it has happened a lot of times recently and that justifies this thread for me

Alright folks, that were my 2 cents

Caryl, what do you mean by that I wonder?

Originally Posted by CarylB

we may but see the tip of an iceberg on this forum.

Caryl

[duke knooby]

Originally Posted by allrevvedup

and there's always three sides to every story

you knows it!!

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by Pudding

Meat gets given a lot of leaway because...well...he's Meat, which is fair enough I suppose, and when he's stepped well over the line R. has either edited or delete his post, which is Kudos to R.

If Meat didn't focus so much on the negatives, especially when there aren't many of them, then he'd be a more happy chappy on here.

Find myself agreeing with Pud here.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

That sounds absolutely ridiculous. I would hate for the freedom of speech to be undermined with some crazy rule book.

yep, I don't see a praticable way for those guidelines as well. I think this thread is interesting and important, yes, but cannot really see a concrete guideline coming out of this.
It's more like a "code of honour" thing that people should think of when typing a post.

[Pudding]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

It's most likely why we all love his music because of the raw emotion that it has

Technically it's not his music, other people write the songs

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Caryl, what do you mean by that I wonder

Icebergs melt, especially the tips of them, this forum could be the start of a bigger meltdown for Meat, maybe due to the climate change of the music industry

[MeatGrl1]

Ian thanks very much for this post, I feel it's what alot have been thinking and feeling for a long time now but were too afraid to take that jump and actually post it, well done and thank you .

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Can we please continue the thread without any unnecessary references to other forum members.

Mabe you could use this advice in the future too Neil !!

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

That sounds absolutely ridiculous.

I agree.

I never said I thought the guideline would be practical. But its worth discussing both extreme ends of it. That is one extreme that I would hate to see explored as well.

But a code of honor seems the polar opposite - much too lax.

In other news, I agree about trying to focus on the positive.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I don't see a need to vote. Rainer put it very well .. and it's just decent and civil behaviour.

I don't see a need to vote, either. But I don't find Meat's responses to those posters to be decent or civil behavior, either.

Originally Posted by CarylB

Most recent events .. I personally consider he had no need to apologise; in fact I was rather surprised he wasn't more angry.

I disagree. It's hard to say with 100% certainty, because there are probably posts that have been deleted that I missed, but I did not see any posts that justified the type of response which they received. If we were to treat each other in the same manner, it would never be tolerated (and rightly so). Fans have feelings, too, and they can be hurt, especially when they have a lot invested, whether it be time, money, etc.

Originally Posted by CarylB

I have never felt intimidated, but then I don't ever feel the need to hurl criticism at him in a way that provokes a reaction.

Again, I don't feel the comments were made with the intent to provoke.

I do feel intimidated, and I don't think I'm a person to "hurl criticism" at anyone. Using the "person in the room" analogy, I compare it to being afraid to voice my opinion in a business meeting (however respectfully phrased) because I'm afraid that the boss will berate me if I disagree with him.

Originally Posted by CarylB

we don't always know what else has happened elsewhere and underpins the post we see him responding to; we may but see the tip of an iceberg on this forum.

Then we shouldn't see the end result on this forum, either. It's not fair to the other members.

[roomster]

Well said Julie

I feel however, that some people on this forum have an almost manic desire to raise and glorify Meat all the time. No matter what he writes, says or does.