Did Nirvana kill mainstream rock?

[03gills]

Hey all! I haven't been on here for a while so i'd thought i'd post and start a BIG topic. What does everyone think of the Use Your Illusion albums by the Guns N' Roses, it's probaly a minority opinion but i think it's some of the bands finest work, sure, it dosen't ROCK as much as 'appetite' but the songs here make axl's egocentric perfectionism in the studio almost (almost) justified. Unfortunatly these albums were released a week before Nirvana's Nevermind hit, Nirvana made it extremley uncool to like Guns N' Roses and, Well, every other band that wasn't grunge for that matter (a sad day in the music industry), it's not that they were bad, its just, i think we would have been better of with hair metal(that's right) because since these guys split up there haven't been any quality mainstream rock bands to achieve real wordwide success, which boils this down to a shocking(but i think fair) question, Did Nirvana kill mainstream rock?

[Rob The Badger]

No. Nirvana saved mainstream rock. Hair metal was shite and is hardly well respected among musos. I could go on a long tirade about worthwhile bands since Nirvana but you'll never change your mind, so it's no use.

Also, to call the release of Nevermind a sad day in music is simply ludicrous. That album shook everything up. It made it cool to like guitar music again. Surely that's a fantastic day?

[Pudding]

It might have shook everything up but it was and still is a shit album.

Pud

[Biter]

I totally agree with Rob the Badger. Nirvana didn't bend over for the record bosses like a lot of others. They started a revolution and gave bored teens another reason to stick one finger up at The Man. I am too young to remember any of their gigs but I have heard the albums and watched the gig footage and...wow. Try and find another band in today's music that compares to them and their success and the respect a hell of a lot of people had for them. When Kurt died, it shook a lot of people up and made them realise that grunge wasn't a passing fad. If anything, it made the genre known to ordinary people, not just the people who were involved with the underground bands.
Ok...I'll calm down now. Does anyone agree with me?

[Biter]

Anyway, Bleach was the breakthrough album.

[Pudding]

That's a crap album as well.

Pud

[evil nickname]

I'm a bit divided over the "Use Your Illusion" albums. On the one side, their great albums, from a technical point of view. Artistically speaking, I'd say I could say I could do without about half of the songs, and make a very solid single album. I mean, tracks like "Civil War", "November Rain", "Estranged" and "Coma" are fabulous songs, but then there are some really mediocre songs too. If they'd cut about half of it, and release the best of the left-overs on a next album a year down the road, and the "filler" tracks as B-sides, "Use Your Illiusion" could have been perfect.
I have te same feelings with Metallica's Load and ReLoad. If you'd make 1 CD from the best songs on both albums, it would have been a realy good album, instead of these avarage albums they are now.

I liked Nirvana best when they went unplugged. When they didn't have that wall of distorted guitars to hide behind. When, mostly, they didn't play their own songs.

I don't think that Nirvana killed mainstream rock, if by "mainstream rock" you mean bands like Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, Live, Kiss, and artists like Bruce Springsteen and, for example, Meat Loaf. They all had (several) hits between the late '80s and '95 (when, about a year after Cobain, grunge died).
There has always been one form of rock that could be considered "mainstream" at any time. Be it heavy metal in the late 60s, glam rock in the 70s, hair metal in the 80s, grunge and punk in the 90s, or nowadays, nu-metal. So in that sense, yes, Nirvana (read: Cobain) killed mainstream rock. Only for it to be re-incarnated as punk-rock.

Something like that, if you happen to catch my drift.

[White of High]

I haven't got opinion abou it but I wanna say I really hate Nirvana...
Kurt Cobain was a depression poet, terrible singer and not so sood guitar player. I really don't understand why people like their music. It's powerless...

[Pudding]

Originally Posted by White of High

I haven't got opinion abou it but I wanna say I really hate Nirvana...
Kurt Cobain was a depression poet, terrible singer and not so sood guitar player. I really don't understand why people like their music. It's powerless...

Totally agree. It pisses me off when I constantly see Nirvana in the top 10 of some shitty 'best of list' and Meat Loaf struggles with a Top 50 position. It's as if one critic has to agree with another critic otherwise they lose their credibility. NME, Rolling Stone, Q, Melody Maker they're all the bloody same.

Sorry rant over

Pud

[Biter]

There are some people who like the music influenced by Nirvana. It made the genre of rock more "acceptable" and more people started listening. This is the way I got into it. I started listening to Grunge, then Punk then I found classic rock. From this, I found quality artists like Springsteen and Meatloaf. Yes, i'm only 16 but I know good music. I liked the Nirvana lyrics. Granted, if Cobain had stayed alive, strung out on crack, he would just be a sad, wasted hasbeen. I know the order of this message is terribly random but I have a hangover and don't really care.

By the way, The Spaghetti Incedent was a good G'n'R album. Use your illusion 1+2 both seemed rushed to me...

[Rob The Badger]

Powerless!?

Bull. Punk rock is not about power or technical ability, it's about heart, and putting your emoptions on the line. Guns 'n' Roses were pish in comparison. All ~~~~y, noodly guitar solos and no heart. Axl was a crap lyricist as well.

[Lizziebaby]

Originally Posted by Biter

By the way, The Spaghetti Incedent was a good G'n'R album. Use your illusion 1+2 both seemed rushed to me...

The Spaghetti Incident killed Guns n Roses.

Well, thats what I reckon anyway..

Liz x

[evil nickname]

Originally Posted by Rob The Badger

Bull. Punk rock is not about power or technical ability, it's about heart, and putting your emoptions on the line.

Bull. Punk is all about power. If it weren't, then kindly explain to me why I have never heard of something like a punk-ballad.
And you can't tell me that bad playing (as in low technical ability) will actually yield in any good music. There's only so much sonic abuse a person can take.
And I think that if you don't put heart and emotion into any song, you should be recording it anyway. Music, like all art, is meant to convey emotion. If it isn't there, what's the point?

Originally Posted by Rob The Badger

Guns 'n' Roses were pish in comparison. All [...], noodly guitar solos and no heart. Axl was a crap lyricist as well.

You haven't been listening to enough Guns N' Roses then, I can only assume.
I don't know what you mean by [...], but GNR goes beyond noodly guitar solos and if you tell me that "Appetite For Destruction" and songs like "Estranged" and "Don't Cry" have no heart, I just won't believe you.

And Axl wasn't a lyrical genius, but then again, "Love Me Do" isn't exactly Shakespeare either.

[Rob The Badger]

By power I was referring to grandiose vocal and instrumental orchestration.

There are punk ballads. They're just not overwrought with schmaltz.


As for playing ability, I would cite The Sex Pistols. As for poor vocals, I would cite Dylan. The latter being one of the most highly respected person in 20th century music.

Saying Nirvana has no heart. . .well. That's just beyond belief. There is more heart in the first bar of Come As You Are than 90% of the G'n'R output. 'November Rain' being the example I choose. Overrated, noodly, pish. Too long, nothing much said. Without the video it means zip, because Axl can't covey much well in words, so he relies on overblown production to try and hammer the message home.

As for The Beatles, you're right, Love Me Do isn't exactly Shakespeare. However, in their defence, at the time they wrote that song, things were different. Pop musicians just din't write complex lyrics. It was left to the Folk musicians (Dylan was one).
Also, this is the same band that later went on to write Eleanor Rigby, A Day In The Life, I Am The Walrus, Strawberry Fields Forever. . .I could go on.
I think we can safely say Lennon and McCartney's earler works are excused by their later acheivements,

But they're not the point here.

You've only to see the Nirvana Unplugged performance to know how worthwhile this band were. If you can't see what all the fuss is about then you're very stuck in your ways. You could probably blame other people too. Neil Young, The Pixies, The Meat Puppets, David Bowie. All of these made Cobain, Cobain.

'Nuff said.

[Pudding]

Originally Posted by Rob The Badger

By power I was referring to grandiose vocal and instrumental orchestration.

And you'd have us believe that this was found in Nirvana? I don't think so

Pud

[Biter]

Thanks Rob. Someone on my wavelengh at last. Almost everybody slags off Nirvana when most of them havn't taken the time to listen to the music or find out what the band were about. Crap lyrics? I think not. 'Come as you are' was class. 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' (in my opinion) was a pisstake of the way our 'Elders' view teenagers.

Anyway, on the G'n'R subject, The Spaghetti Incedent album was the best of a bad bunch in my opinion. November Rain? I didn't know what that was about till I saw the video. I'ts just another mediocre song from a mediocre band. Even 'In And Out Of Love' by Bon Jovi is better. Axl threw it al away when he started sacking members. I mean, come on! Duff McKagan and Izzy Stradlin didn't know they were out until they saw it on TV. The man is a top class numbnuts. At least Springsteen writes his own stuff and includes the rest of his band.

Anyone else of the same opinion?

[Rob The Badger]

Originally Posted by Pudding

And you'd have us believe that this was found in Nirvana? I don't think so

Pud

No, which makes them better than Guns and Roses. Kurt Cobain didn't need all that extra shite to make the songs real.

G'n'R is just all noise and no heart. Really.

[Lizziebaby]

Originally Posted by Rob The Badger

No, which makes them better than Guns and Roses. Kurt Cobain didn't need all that extra shite to make the songs real.

G'n'R is just all noise and no heart. Really.

What we've got here is failure to
communicate.
Some men you just can't reach...
So, you get what we had here last week,
which is the way he wants it!
Well, he gets it!
N' I don't like it any more than you men." *

Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before

Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before

My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars

D'you wear a black armband
When they shot the man
Who said "Peace could last forever"
And in my first memories
They shot Kennedy
I went numb when I learned to see
So I never fell for Vietnam
We got the wall of D.C. to remind us all
That you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land

And
I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war

Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more

My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

"WE PRACTICE SELECTIVE ANNIHILATION OF MAYORS AND GOVERNMENT
OFFICIALS
FOR EXAMPLE TO CREATE A VACUUM
THEN WE FILL THAT VACUUM
AS POPULAR WAR ADVANCES
PEACE IS CLOSER" **

I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
And I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
I don't need one more war

I don't need one more war
Whaz so civil 'bout war anyway


Forgive me but where are the above lyrics lacking in heart? I'm by no means suggesting that Nirvana were any better or worse than any other band (they were never my cup of tea, but if we all liked the same thing then just imagine how boring the world would be!)

Guns n Roses provided a group of people (like me) something that they could listen to, appreciate, take in and think about through thier music...

I have never tried to disregard any music just because I didn't get it, and I don't intend to start now....and before I'm completely ripped apart I am not suggesting that anyone is trying to do this..I don't have the intelligence to do that sufficiently.

All I'm saying is (in a very round about way) is that throughout the years, the difference of opinion on what makes good and bad music, who is better or worse than anyone else in a particular genre, varies from month to month, year to year, and depends on who you talk to...respect others opinions, because if people are generous enough to share their thoughts, they deserve listening to and exploring.

Liz x

[Rob The Badger]

We're debating, not arguing. At least I hope we are.

As for the lyric you just posted, I think it's a subject that's been covered many a time, and much better.

It does lack heart, because I don't sense any real conviction on the part of Mr. Rose there.

And, I'm not trying to throw it back in your face but, don't you think that the lenght alone destroys any intensity the lyric holds?

[Lizziebaby]

Originally Posted by Rob The Badger

We're debating, not arguing. At least I hope we are.

Never said you were arguing.......(at least I don't think I did..) just putting my personal opinion across

As for the lyric you just posted, I think it's a subject that's been covered many a time, and much better.

Probably...I have never tried to make myself out as some sort of musical buff, I'm clearly not, but I do know what has affected me over the years..

It does lack heart, because I don't sense any real conviction on the part of Mr. Rose there.

I do..

And, I'm not trying to throw it back in your face but, don't you think that the lenght alone destroys any intensity the lyric holds?

Not really no..I have a long concentration span!!!

Luv ya Rob, Liz xxx ps, too tired to work out al this quoting malarkey, so follow me as best you can!!!

[Rob The Badger]

Meh. . .this is going to go nowhere. . .

[RSG]

I speak with the party that likes Nirvana music over Guns N Roses music.

Nirvana (Kurt Cobain) was\still is a band, that gave alot of enjoyment! Styles indeed do change over the years, and this particular grunge period (sub-genre) is no exception. I like Kurt's vocals they show effort, and the music that is Nirvana comes out through Kurt's hidden anger depression. But not all his songs are all like that, he's a performer like all, and although he can be a quiet speaker, he still connects with an audience of many. I much prefer In Etro (correctiions??) over Nevermind, but that's just my personal opinion. Another good one is, "live in new york" . He was an everyday person and showed it, the suicide was a shock that we all knew was going to happen but didn't want to believe it. I looked at some facts, and it kind of shows. As for Nirvana the band itself, a big highlight in music, although, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was too popular in my opinion.

As for a quick note on Guns N Roses, I like some of their songs, not a really bad band, but I much prefer Kurt's vocals over his. The music, is hard to make a judgement by, it all reflects on what I like on certain days.

[Pudding]

Originally Posted by RSG

I speak with the party that likes Nirvana music over Guns N Roses music.

I'm with the Guns N Roses over Nirvana and I'm gonna do a poll.

Pud

[AndyK]

If the choice is purely one or the other then GnR win for me, I don't really do grunge that well - unless you count what can be found in the bottom of my fridge, thn again I don't do hair that much these days either - but that's age catching up with me and it'll get you all in the end

Nevermind is a pretty good album IMO, but I prefer Appetite or Illusion - even though Slash is a poor imitation of the legend that is Keef Richards

[RSG]

sounds good to me, Pudd! how long a fan of GnR?