Oh god...this is not a good album...I am so sorry...I was cringing all the way to the supermarket while I was listening to it...it was a good venue to listen to it...but it just is not good...And Surf's Up is Objects in a Rearview Mirror...how did I not notice it before? Maybe because I've listened to it a long time ago...but maybe because it was Meat Loaf...I used to have a tape and now waiting for a CD - takes forever to get it...

Er, 'scuse me? They're nothing like each other, musically or in subject matter.

Dave

That's what I thought...listen to the Bad For Good version of the Surf's Up and then to Objects in a Rearview Mirror...subjects different...most of the music is the same...or almost the same...

I've listen to both many many times, and I've never ever thought they were the same. Your ears must be "special".

Dave

Good old Dave is a little bit deaf cause he ofcourse he knows that the first two lines have the same melody :mrgreen:

Thank you...I am a bit long in a tooth...but I never thought that I am THAT deaf...and it's not just first two lines...if you listen very carefully...there is a whole lot more...

My ears are special...I have formal musical education...that is not to say that I am a great musician or anything remotely close...but I do hear...

I am ugly as hell but my ears are good too :mrgreen:

Don't really understand what anybody is saying and more importantly why? but this may explain something about Steinman's similarity in songs. He re-uses chord progressions in many of his songs. In fact in the two songs mentioned he uses
"C - Am - F - G" a lot (just in different keys).
This progression can also be found in Anything for Love, Future ain't what it used to be, the musical part of Left in the Dark (in the middle) and Frying Pan.

The I - VI - IV - V chord progression (C Am F G in the Key of C) is the singularly most common chord progression in the entirety of Popular music. So it's not really a thing to single out Jim for using it a fair bit, it isn't really saying much. But I do agree he re-uses ideas, but I would say maybe more so lyrically than musically!!!

BAD FOR GOOD is a FANTASTIC album IMO. It is full of fantastic songs. Jim's voice, for me, took a bit of getting used to, but eventually I discovered I loved it, and I much prefer his version of Left In The Dark to Meats.

I totally appreciate you are "defending Steinman" in a way and certainly on another message board where most people would probably not be so well informed about his music I would do the same. However I'm trying to explain why mszee thinks the two songs are similar. Surely the lyrics are not however a chord progression (especially reusing them in chorusses) are bloody important I think! (Indeed on these two songs that mszee points out there is also a melody that sounds similar). If you consider this list of songs:

Making Love out of Nothing at all
Anything for Love
Objects (similar melody on the chord progression)
Left in the Dark
Frying Pan
Surf's Up (similar melody on the chord progression)
Future ain't what it used to be (similar melody on the chord progression)
Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through

These songs already form a large part of Jim's more popular work imo and I really do think his use of that chord progression in these songs make them musically similar. I'm not having a go at Steinman regarding this, I just think it is a very important feature to distinguish his music (ie the lyrics/music force a 4 - 6 or 8 bar chorus or intro/outro thus this works out nicely) and cannot think of another song writer who has re-used this chord progression especially in chorusses so often. Funny thing is it started to appear on the Bad for Good album. I for one would have a hard time finding your so called "most commen chord progression in popular music" back in a lot of Bruce Springsteen songs for example and he has written around 300 or in Bob Dylan's repetoire for that matter.

Sure other composers have used this, it IS a popular progression and you are absolutely correct for pointing this out. But if you're gonna re-use it more frequently than others I think it will eventually stand out. Another simple change to it is changing the subdominant and dominant around. Again voila you would have a progression you will find in many songs.

However I would argue that the most popular chord progressions in popular music would be either the circle of fifts, derived from blues or a three chord song, not four chords (ie no minor chords ).

In Meat's non Steinman songs the chord progression we've discussed has not been used as much I believe. I argue that it is certainly a recurring feature in Steinman's long songs. Certainly for me I think typical Steinman when he uses this.

I'll give you an example:
during Meat's 2005 tour he played "Anything for Love" differently. They started with the D (x4) G A, bit (the loud intro), this lasted for around 4 repeats (unusually singing "I would do anything..." over it) then they replaced the third and fourth D chords for bm, obviously the main chorus and straight away I thought "Steinman" and worked really well (simple but effective).

Yes BFG is a cracker, I totally agree.

You are right - Stienman does use it a lot. And it is great - it's not a critisism. I'm going to love her for both of has it at one point.

But I would still say it's the most common. No it's unlikely Bruce has used it much, because the proggresion is somewhat of a musical chlice (sp), his use of chords seems to be quite diverse.

It was most popular, I believe, in the kind of Rock and Roll era in the 50's. Three chord songs are quite popular, but to some extent they don't stand out so much because of the lack of different chords.

When you say Cicle of Fiths, do you mean an entire song based on the complete circe? Modulating every chord? I don't imagine that would work very well...

Yeah that is one you find a lot in rock n roll, that's very true I think so also.

I think from my early days in music school I can remember circle of fifths chord progression (this determines the notes) fourths going upwards meaning I IV and IV of the IV scale (ie C, F, Bb for example), maybe I'm wrong here.

Probably adding the 7th on the dominant is actually much more popular (and what I meant at 4 in the morning) and derived from Blues, so it comes down to the popular three chords again really . :))

Ah I think I know what you mean now - that progression would result in a modulation to the subdominant key. I thought you meant the entire cicle -
C G D A E B F# C#/Db Ab Eb Bb F - as a progression for an entire song! Which would sound a little unstable.

Yes the Dominant 7th chord is very common rather than just the dominant. I don't know much about blues, but the Dom. 7th chord has been a staple of Classical Harmony for centuries - so I wouldn't say it took it's roots solely from Blues.

Going back to the I VI IV V debate here is a list of songs off the top of my head that use it to a great extent

Stand By Me
Unchained Melody
I Will Always Love You
Every Breath You Take
Mandy
Goodbye My Lover (james Blunt)
King for a Day (Greenday)
Crocodile Rock (La Bit)
In My Secret Life & Alexandria Leaving (Leanord Cohen)
We Go Together from Grease (and several other songs from it too)

Continued from Bat III thread
 

Continued over here to stop Bat III going further off topic....!!!!

I have to totally disagree with this statement. I can understand criticism over the technical aspects of Jim's singing - but to say he doesn't feel it...

Listen to his Left In The Dark - Maybe not great singing, but he feels every word and note he is singing.

As a matter of opinion I much prefer Jim to Meat at that song!

But anyway, it is touching how moved you can be at Meat... I just think it is slightly unfair to say Jim doesn't feel. I understand if you don't like his singing, or the album or whatever. But Jim does Feel what he's singing!:-)

I think i know what mszee ment:
Maybe jim feels the songs that he sings, but you don´t hear this feeling as much as you do with songs sung by Meat. That doesn´t say that he doesn´t feel while singing.

Yes that makes sense.

I think the main difference is that Meat is just a fantastic singer - I think Jim puts almost (if not equally) as much emotion in - it's just that he can't sing very well.

Which ultimatly for some I think, results in a loss of the feeling and emotion behind Jim's own songs.

Like I said before about Left In The Dark... first time I heard Jim at it I thought it was horrible... but once I listened to it a few times and got used to the nuances of his voice.. I completely fell in love with his rendition of the track.

Ok..you're both right...

I know for a fact that Jim Steinman feels...how else you can write lyrics like that? And yet I listened to the album and cringed...I believe that it was a struggle for him and his voice to just stay with the vocals of his songs...the instrumentals...never mind emoting...

When Meat Loaf sings those same songs...he just completely breaks my heart...again..maybe it's a fluke of my hearing...

And there is another thing...there is definitely something wrong with the production of this record...I definitely heard either bad guitars or bad guitar playing on the album...was cutting my ears off my head...and then I went and read the credits...oops...those are Meat Loaf's band musicians...there was definitely something wrong with this album technically...

Ok...I am being extremely good and staying on the subject...

And I need help...

I am looking at the back picture of the Bad For Good album insert...picture of Jim Steinman...is it me or does it look like a Superman or some Super hero in any event???

Bad for Good
 

I'm probably going to regret this but I feel compelled to defend Bad For Good. I really like this album. Jim doesn't have the best voice in the world but he does capably enough (better than Meat on Dead Ringer, I dare say) and the songs are great. I too really enjoy Left in the Dark, as well as Stark Raving Love, the title track, and others.

As for versions of Left in the Dark, there isn't an official version of my favorite - Rob Evan did it at the Over the Top show last January. I was never crazy about Meat's version (he sounds too angry) and after hearing Rob's version, Jim's sounded whinier than ever. Rob hit a middle ground that was just right.

Finally, in case I haven't said enough to get this post deleted, I've been listening to Bat II the last couple of days and, right now, I prefer BFG to it. It's excellent but, for some reason right now the songs just aren't doing it for me.

Attack at will.

Bad For Good is a great album, not many Meat Loaf fans successfully argue otherwise. Yes, Steinman's singing isn't fantastic, but overall it's a great album, with some great songs that Meat Loaf himself wanted to record for Bat2.

Surf's Up and Objects are sod all alike and despite what intro or outro Steinman uses, the songs are completely different. Surf's Up and Angel Arise are alike that's obvious. But to say Surf's Up and Objects are alike is the kind of nonsense I'd expect to hear from...well...Ryan. No offence to Ryan but he has a bit of a reputation of comparing songs in the most obscure fashion and picking up on 3 notes that sound the same and claiming blatant recycling by Steinman.

Pud :twisted:

only one question:
Should i buy it?


And maybe another question:
I got a cd from a friend, where the cover with the names of the artists got lost. There is a song called "surf´s up tonight", is that the song You mentioned here?

R.

Yes :-)

Nope. That's a different song, by Midnight Oil I believe.

Dave

sure Midnight Oil?
...cool

I think you should at least listen to it to form your own opinion

I think that the most beautiful thing about forums usually is freedom of expressing an opinion. I find it imperative to be able to express your opinion without fear or reservation - I've spent many years behind the Iron Curtain and whoever didn't - will never understand anyway.

I will not argue that you're entitled to your opinion. I just want to mention here that Left In The Dark might sound a bit whiny on Meat Loaf's version because as he pointed out he often imagines songs as subjects or characters. Left in the Dark for him apparently is a woman...I will not repeat whether I liked Steinman's version or not...but, although lyrics suggest that protagonist is a man...it almost feels like Steinman imagines it to be a woman too.

I have never heard this - I think in some ways it's a lot rawer production at times - and probably had the smallest budget out of Bat 1 2 or Bad (This is an assumption.) But I think it has a better production than Dead Ringer. Which is by no means a bad production. But technically inncorect - I doubt that!


Welcome to the board Daphne! Mmm Meat's voice wasn't at it's best during Dead Ringer - but there are parts of it I love - the end of Read Em And Weep - great Vocals!

I know what you mean about too angry - but I think it is the band more so that put this across. Too rocky I think.
Haven't heard Rob Evan - Will look out for that!

LOl as much as a fan of BFG nothing tops Bat II for me - not even Bat I! Now I think it's me who will get attacked.....


YES. RIGHT NOW!!!!

I'm not sure I follow you here - The song is about a Man (the singer) whose female lover has been cheating on him with another man. This applies to both versions!

Sorry for long post!!!

Yes, absolutely...the lyrics are that of a man lamenting about possible loss of a woman...but I've read that Meat Loaf imagines this to be actually a woman...and if you listen carefully to the song...and read the lyrics...it is almost too whiny for a man...it does start to feel like a woman rather than a man. I guess it is power of suggestion...but I also started to hear woman whining and crying in the dark after I've read this...

Again...this was just my personal opinion. I just felt like there was something wrong with the mix. I do love Dead Ringer though better - personal preference. I like songs much better. I thought I would shoot myself while listening to Dance In My Pants. What do you think about this song? I thought it was some kind of abomination...

I am very open minded individual and love to hear opinions of others...I don't get into fights unless it is pure slander and even then I just walk away. But I enjoy a good discussioon and hearing everybody's point of view no matter how different it is from mine and how wrong it appears to me...but one man's dream is another man's nightmare...and so it goes...

You mean Meat imagined himself in the place of a Woman whose Male lover is doing the cheating, a reversal of roles?

I can see where this would make sense - it would possible highten the sense of vurnerabitlty.

This is what I understood. He said that for every song that he sings he gets into what he imagines to be a main character of the song (he calls himself a method singer)...he named a few songs and how he imagines characters are...then he said that Left In The Dark for him is actually a woman...and so that's how I understood it - reversal of roles...

I didn't think that Steinman's expression of feeling was up to par...but even with him I took away the same thing with Left in The Dark...

If I have to say something positive about the album is what impressed me the most is that when Meat Loaf sang the same songs he didn't change general arrangements too much...that's how I saw and heard it...which means that he respected arrangements enough. The only big difference I saw was Rock and Roll Dreams come through. That was speeded up...as it should have been speeded up, I think...

But then again...I just heard the album one time but I really don't have a compulsion to listen to it again - maybe at some later date...

Ok...somebody please help...I just got notification that Musicman just posted something on this thread but I don't see the post? And it happened to me more than once today? Why is it happening?

The power of deleting posts is strong with me. :))

Sometimes I post something and then I think, nah can't be bothered and delete it.

Um, minor point. "There are no lies on your body....oh, so take off your dress"

Is it a lesbian relationship?? :shock:

Well spotted Lotus, I thought there was something fishy about this assumption. However it could be a guy in drag.

Lol I don't know how true the thinking of a woman thing is - but I think mzsee was not meaning meat thinks it to be totally literally as a woman, more just a method of preparing for the emotion behind the song. I don't know lol.

But here's a point - what does Streisand sing at this bit?

I've seen plenty of lesbians who look like Meat Loaf, so who knows :faint:

Pud :twisted:

A simple google lyrics search reveals the answer:

And there are no lies on your body
As I see you undress ooooh

Pud :twisted:

Gotta love Babs and her massacres....

A Meat look-a-like lesbian? That's enough to turn a girls head. :lmao:

Lol. That sucks.

Oh I see...oh well...I was about to answer...you took the words right out of my mouth...

ROFL!!

the best thing about DIMP is that Karla DeVito does a large chunk of the vocals alone. ;)

re: abomination...have you seen the DIMP video?:shock:

Jim is a phenomenally talented songwriter, but I cannot stand to hear him sing. :wtf:

Apparently he was prevented from becoming a professional singer after someone broke his nose, I'd like to shake that persons hand :D

Pud :twisted:

Jim is great!
I whould even say he´s a musical genius, but his voice...

Oh my god.........................do you want to tell me that there is DIMP video????????????????????? Oh my god...where...I have to see this...oh my dear lord...

He has a pleasant enough voice...but he just doesn't have range...delusions of grandeur on the other hand...

Alright...I just saw a video - found it on line...I am laughing so hard I have problems typing...

1. Is this the same man who has given us Bat Out of Hell?
2. If I take a video camera and chase my 3 dogs around the house for a day or two...I should probably make a better video.
3. When he hits the piano with his foot...I was hoping he will fall in and the lid will slam on his butt.
4. He proved to be quite a Mr. Personality on that video, eh?
5. From my bigger (but not necessarily better) half: "It was the longest 10 minutes of my life".
6. What an utter mess...and I want my money back...oh wait...I didn't pay any money...well, then I want 10 minutes of my lemony life back...
7. I am finally staying on topic...granted, it's my topic...but I am still on topic...are you all proud of me?

Now I am watching video for Love and Death and an American Guitar...wow...that is totally insane...what was he thinking? And am I crazy or he has pants that are way too tight...or something...my hubby says it's a bunch of socks...

I was just quoting what he said about preparing for the song - I think you got it right...I got it myself like that. Emotions in the song definitely smack of a female

Well, technically, all straight men are lesbians...I don't think Meat Loaf is an exception...as a straight man he definitely qualifies

And the fact he played a man with breasts in Fight Club definitely adds to his qualification as a lesbian :lmao:

Pud :twisted:

I didn't see a movie...but then I saw a picture of him hugging who? (Brad Pitt?) forgot...and he appeared to have these huge bosoms...what was that all about?

Some questions are best left unanswered :shock:

Pud :twisted:

He plays a man suffering from testicular cancer, and het drugs he is on has caused him to grow bitch tits. He is hugging the main character, Edward Norton.

Right...that was Edward Norton...I was too lazy to look it up - thanks...for some reason I am staying away from this movie. I have sometimes this sixth sense that prevents me from doing things and if I do do them at the end - I then know that my sixth sense was right. That's what happened to the Bad For Good album - I stayed away from it for years...and now that I have it I know why I never bought it in the first place.

I personally think Fight Club is overrated, in short - it's crap. Meat Loaf plays his part well, but the overall story and characters to me are rubbish. If you haven't seen it, you're not missing anything.

Pud :twisted:

I thought I was the only one who didn't like Fight Club?

It *should* have been a great story, I'm can't put my finger on it, but it didn't work out right. The book was way better, imo.

That said, I do have a copy of the script, signed by all 5 lead actors, so.... ;)

To be honest with you...that's what I thought. That's why I never had a wish to see it...

on meatloafonline.com is a small cut of the scene you´re talking about.