Verbal abuse
 

In another thread tbuck posted:
Of course one's perspective tends to get coloured depending on the size of cross one is expected to haul up the Calvary of the forum .. and "words" are precisely what this forum consists of, and what this is all about. In the past few days I have been described as:

demented old bag
sycophantic
unhealthy
sad
having withdrawal symptoms
on my third bottle of gin
witchfinder general
sergeant burton
the thought police
not having a life
raving "psycophantically"
an obsessed lunatic
should be certified
bull shitting
Caryl b (b is for bollocks)
someone who would hound radio stations "like she does" to get a CD of Meat's farts played
using Meat Loaf shower gel and toothpaste
kissing Meat's arse
someone ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ wouldn't piss on were he on fire (this last I am actually thankful for .. :) )

And all of this because I defend Meat, challenge derogatory comments about him (without using abusive language), support him 100% .. I'm a fan, this is a fansite dedicated to Meat .. it's what I do, and in my humble opinion a place where one should be able to do just that, without fear of attack and verbal abuse for so doing.

I don't expect my life to be a bowl of cherries .. indeed it has not been one. However, I see no reason why I should be expected to stand silent and patient while I am consistently abused verbally by a few people for expressing opinions, coherently, articulately and without abusing others, particularly when these opinions are often shared by people who are not attacked in the same way for holding and expressing them.

Shadow recently posted:
I think she hit the nail on the head. Probably in a few people's eyes this does mean that she is an a**kisser .. the main difference is that she will probably not get called that, whilst I have come to expect that I in all likelihood will. So forgive me if I tire of bearing the cross to which you refer, but also note that I will continue to post in support of Meat.

And if that makes me sad, obsessed and sycophantic .. well I believe I am in good company, and in company whose loyalty to Meat I value and respect ... and frankly I have neither for those who name call and verbally abuse me, or anyone else in this forum.

I do have great respect for a Moderator who makes it clear that such behaviour is not acceptable. As others have agreed, it is unpleasant behaviour, unnecessary and discouraging.

Caryl, it seems to me that people feel free to say rotten things in a net forum that they would never say to a person's face. I have wondered if they don't realize that there is another person with feelings on the receiving end of those personal comments. Typing off a mean word or two just doesn't seem to be insulting a real person. If they are talking that same trash in person...bet they spend a lot of time either alone or in bandages. :roll:

Re: Verbal abuse
 

Well, that having been said, let me say that I personally value and respect all life. What the problem is, and I know this to be a fact, people would rather just give up on strong passions for Meat rather than tread through the sludge of wisecracks and preaching they will endure if they post something that is not 100% in line with some people's beliefs.

There are two obvious schools of thought on this board:

1. People who are all about the Meat Loaf lifestyle
2. People who are all about Meat Loaf

I know for a fact that I fit squarely into a Type 1 personality, and would venture to say that CarylB would fit squarely into a Type 2 personality.

With my theory laid out on the table, let me attempt to lay out the situation as I see it. I will take the statement from Kev that was something to the effect that "Meat Loaf is looking old." Kev is very much a Type 1 personality on this board. Type 1 personalities love the music Meat Loaf makes, they love the projects he is involved with, but can also be somewhat critical of him (if need be).

Kev's critical point was that he believed Meat was looking old, which is a valid point. He never said anything critical (i.e., Meat Loaf looks too old to rock or Meat Loaf looks too old to be singing anymore), all he said was that Meat Loaf looked old at the press conference.

CarylB tends to be a Type 2 personality on this board. The Type 2 personalities tend to love Meat Loaf (the man), would rather chat about what he was wearing during a concert than the set list - they are more about the celebrity known as Meat Loaf rather than everything that surrounds it. (I know this explanation may be a little off, but this is how I see it).

As a Type 2 personality on this board, CarylB took offence to the fact that Kev (Type 1 personality) made the statement that Meat Loaf was looking old and CarlyB defended Meat Loaf by saying something to the effect of "He is 56, so what is your point."

The problem is...A Type 1 versus Type 2 Meat Loaf fan disagreement will always, 110%, without fail, and with absolution end up in a vicious cycle of downward spiral to the "Fight Club."

I know that my discovery of Type 1 and Type 2 personalities has just recently surfaced. I have made a personal resolution to myself that I know nothing productive will ever come of me (a Type 1 personality) disagreeing with any of the Type 2 personalities not only on this board, but also in other places on the Internet and further into the "real life" world of Meat Loaf fandom.

I know there are some things that, as a Type 1 personality, that I come up with that will make Type 2 personality people shiver. I know that some of what the Type 2 personalities come up with make me (as a Type 1 personality) shiver.

Thing is, I am working really hard and asking God everyday for the guidance and wisdom to allow concepts and ideas that the Type 2 personalities come up with to just roll off my back and not get me all in a funk.

As a Type 1 personality Meat Loaf fan, I am standing here to make a public statement of recognition that I am fully aware I have issues in dealing with the differences between my personal beliefs and opinions as a Type 1 personality and the personal thoughts and personal beliefs of the Type 2 personalities in the Meat Loaf universe.

My early New Year's resolution is, to be way more tolerant with this matter, both online and in the real-world.

ROCK ON MEAT LOAF FANS!!!!

To me, that's not the point. See... I don't care which type or who said what. It's not about persons. e.g. if Meat does it, it's equally wrong.

As long as you're not abusive yourself, you don't deserve to be verbally abused.
I see verbal abuse in a lot of topics. To me, that takes the fun out of it. That makes this forum no longer a nice place to hang out.

I would NEVER accept name-calling on my forum. Never. Unacceptable. It is not giving an opinion, its plain rude.

Now, I'm just a member here, I don't make the rules, but if this name-calling won't stop, I'm gone.

There should be absolutely no verbal abuse at all on this forum. I work as a guard for the Railways and if any of us are subjected to verbal abuse not just physical, the company I work for presses charges and has the offender prosecuted. It doesn't matter what "TYPE" of Meat fan you are, there is no "TYPE" of fan. I love Meat for his Music and for himself as a whole, and I'm male. Everyone has a right what to say but some go too far. Remeber this is the "Meat Loaf Fan Club" site not the "Lets Have A Pop At Meat" site. If people want to have a go at what Meat sings like, what Meat looks like, what Meat has for breakfast, go and do it somewhere else, cause I don't just think it is just myself who is sick of hearing all these childish remarks. Caryl b is not obsesive, she has a passion for Meat, like most of us in this forum, that's why we are here. We don't just listen to his music and like it, it is something about Meat that we love and like along with his music and acting abilities. That's all for me to say now. And please, no childish remarks and replies from those persistent offenders, because frankly, I don't care what you say. :D

Re: Verbal abuse
 

[quote="CarylB"]
And all of this because I defend Meat, challenge derogatory comments about him (without using abusive language), support him 100% .. I'm a fan, this is a fansite dedicated to Meat .. it's what I do, and in my humble opinion a place where one should be able to do just that, without fear of attack and verbal abuse for so doing. quote]

Hear, hear Caryl. If people take offence at you showing appreciation for meat - raving about the music, the man himself and so on - why are they here? The word fan is an abbreviation of 'fanatic' - we are fanatical about him and so if they don't want a degree of so-called 'ass kissing' why visit a fan site???

Well, for me, it's not about that or what kind of fan you are. I like discussions and I don't mind critisism towards Meat if it is just about not liking a show or an album or whatever.
But, the way I read some threads: some critisize just to get a response, to start trouble. Notice I'm saying "the way I read", because this is written text and a mistake is easily made.

My point is the verbal abuse, the name-calling. That is inacceptable for me. I can't keep up with all topics, but the ones I read: anyone can see the name-calling going on. And often directed to CarylB.
And only a few people say something about it.

Me: I'm just fed up with the verbal abuse on the forum. And frankly: I've never been called names here, but if that were the case, I don't think I could be so patient and polite about it as CarylB has.

But I said before: it is not about persons or who it is directed to. Today it's CarylB, tomorrow it could be you. Think about that.

Mmm.... this ain't good. There are a lot of people do that lately. Don't know why.

As for Carylb, the same thing happens to me in Pm's. I'm not closing my mouth for that, not walking away.

CarylB, people who do that are sick. It must be fun on this board, no stuff like this must happen.

Give me the names from those people and i will kick their asses for you!!!

Don't know what we can do about it. The number of members is growing very fast. And i think that lots of people don't know how they must react or act on a forum, maybe that is a problem.

It is hard to see, i admit that. And there is less we can do about it. But don't react on that kind of people, they are not worth it. They are not even worth to run around on this world and act like a ML fan.

The Butcher.

I was thinking... we have the ignore option of course. That would at least solve your PM probs. But: what about guests, what impression would they get about this forum if they start reading topics and see all this abuse going on. :?

I do not like abuse in any shape or form. So, ofcourse that includes verbal abuse. To me, it only 'proves' the poster feels 'out of control' and is 'lowering' (is that good English?) her-/himself to this kind of behaviour.
This is just how I look at this. I try not to do this myself, because if I am being abusive towards anyone, I do not feel good about myself.

...I know...Back to Tibet :lol:

Great days to all of you,

Mariella

As to classification .. I don't think it really matters whether you belong to one of the myriad personality types the human genus actually embraces, or can be reduced to a simple classification that Freud somehow missed, this is about verbal abuse, it is about courtesy or rather lack of it. Those who are not verbally abused by others do not deserve to be abused. This kind of bullying is something to be deplored. It is disgraceful when children are bullied and hounded. The fact that what is being discussed here is perpetrated on the internet and directed at adults who are able to see it for what it is and be disgusted rather than damaged, is neither here nor there imo. Like all bullying it is cowardly, potentially hurtful, and frankly ignorant whether posted publicly or sent under cover of darkness in PMs. In any decent society it is rejected as unacceptable by reasonable people, whatever their personality type.

Caryl (DPhil., MPhil., T&HD)
.. who thinks at times Tim's a lot like Meat: larger than life and twice as loud, and loves him for it :)

Well well well I must thank David for the best laugh I’ve had in ages !
However what we are forgetting here is a basic integrity where a non judgemental approach is required.
Wouldn’t psychology be a simple area if human behaviour fell into two distinct patterns?
My goodness, the likes of Freud, Piaget, Vygotsky, Jung etc would not have need to look any further in their research if things just popped either into box 1 or box 2.

So lets add to this theory and detail the further classification of users here:-

Type 3 - Those with no real interest other than to inflict hurt, pain or dissention

Type 4 - Those who are long term members and are dedicated fans, but who are now afraid to post in serious topics for fear of being subjected to torrents of abuse

Type 5 - Those with a degree of power, and how it is used

Type 6 - Those who hold their own rights and values over and above those of any other users

Type 7 - Those who are able to post in an inoffensive manner

Type 8 - Those who post in an offensive manner

Type 9 - Those where English is not a first language and need some leeway in the interpretation of their posts

Type 10- those with a completely different agenda on a totally different level

Well as you can see folks the arena is open, and whilst I may personally slot someone into a type from
1 - 10 or even unclassified, I would not chose to do so here and now.

Irrespective of any type or classification the REAL issues here are common decency and integrity, and that is what we need to get back to.

Personally I was very pleased to see Diane make a stand yesterday to try to draw a line in the sand with acceptable behaviour and standards, and believe it was a sad event that others then tried to undermine her actions.

MLUKFC need to start listening to members who are saying that they just don’t post in serious topics anymore because of the abuse that is thrown at them, this has been said to me on several occasions now by different members.

It's about time this came up for general discussion, but lets just wait and see just how long it takes for this topic to be either locked or moved to fight club......

I've been a member here for just over a year now and to be honest, i'm utterly disgusted at the way some members of this forum have been allowed to get away with what can only be described as a modern day witch-hunt.

Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.

I am saddend by the way that Caryl has been treated here - it makes me wonder should i express my opinions fully and frankly as Caryl does, if i would get the same response as well...

I think what annoys me more is the fact that some people seem to think that this kind of abuse and bullying is acceptable. As Sharon has already pointed out - i wonder if these bullies would be brave enough to say in person, face to face, what they are all too quick to say when hiding behind a computer screen. Somehow i don't think so.

This is the Meat Loaf UK Fan Club. This, in my interpretation, means that this is a place to come and participate in because you are a fan of Meat's. This is a place that is supposed to be enjoyable and fun. This isn't a place where abuse and insults should be thrown at a person just because they have expressed an opinion that you don't happen to agree with. Yes, it's fine to have differences - they are what makes this forum fun, but when what is said becomes nasty and hurtful then that is just plain wrong.

Those people who take pleasure in degrading and insuting Caryl should be ashamed of themselves.You know who you are. This is supposed to be a forum where free speach is encouraged, so lets encourage the free speech, and get rid of the bullying and nastiness. I'm not saying that we should all be one big happy family - i know that will never happen, but it would be good if we could be at least nice to one another.

That is not correct. I know that both R and I have stepped in a few times when this has happened.

http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2518 is one example.

SueW

That trip down memory lane just totally sickened me. What horrible things were said. My stomach is upset reading that thread. Really, I think I may lose my breakfast.

I would like to point out that one of those awful posts I did PM a moderator about and received no reply.

And although I do appreciate Diane stepping in yesterday, I have to think that my public plea was what made that happen. I could not be ignored if I made the plea publicly. I wasn't and, Diane, and again, I appreciate that.

I don't wish to be argumentative here, Sue, but what you actually did was lock the particular thread. Not once did you condem the verbal abuse that Caryl was given or pull the abusers up about it. I believe your turn of phrase was 'Bickering'.

It seems to me that it's a hell of a lot easier for a mod to lock a particular thread and 'put an end to bickering' then it is to leave the thread open and have to deal with abusive posters.

I would just like to say that my last comment is not directed at anyone inparticular - just an observation in general.

I think you make a fair point Heat. SueW identified the one occasion when something was said apart from the thread was being locked because of bickering or argument. On that occasion she said "We're all sad that Meat is leaving this board but these kind of posts will just send other people away too. "

Yesterday was the first time I can recall anything being said that clearly labelled what was said about me as being unacceptable. And this kind of abuse has been allowed to continue for quite some time on occasions .. and whilst threads may be locked, this is not the same as coming out and saying clearly and unequivocally that verbal abuse of individuals will not be tolerated here. Yesterday Diane did that .. and I am grateful and respect her for it.

ALL BULLYING EITHER OVERT AND COVERT SHOULD BE STOPPED BY ALL PARTIES IMMEDIATELY BULLYING TAKES VARIOUS FORMS AS DO BULLIES.



:evil: Rosie

Im getting fed up on here now , :( it seems everywhere you go on here lately there are insults, abuse, name calling, arguing all the time, :( its really depressing me now, :( i wish everyone would come on here and be nice, :lol: i wish Meat could see all this. :( dont think hed be very impressed, :( after all this site is for all who love his music and him. :wink: Its not a war forum for gods sake, :( all the insults and arguing are taking the goodness out of this forum. :cry: im sorry i do love it here, its just going way over the top now. :cry: guys come on lets ALL get on now. :D , stop all these insults, and the abuse there is no need on here, we should all be one big happy family for Meat , :D dont forget thats who were here for. :wink:

IMO I don't think Meat would be surprised. He himself has felt the need to come on and defend/ explain himself.

And this has been going on for some time now. I'm sure he's seen bits and pieces in his travels on the forum and he still returns to post.

As for one big happy family? Show me one of those and I'm sure that I'd be viewing a family plot... :lmao:

:twisted: I don't know if i'm taking this the wrong way :roll: , but if the moderators of this board are being asked to justify themselves, then I would like to say that if there are any problems in Loaf Camera Action or Off Topic, they are dealt with.Thankfully there have not been too many problems in Off Topic (and none in LCA).
I watch my forums, and if there is a problem, I will monitor the situation to see wether if what is being said is friendly banter or genuine flaming.If I feel things are going too far, or if I receive an official complaint I will act.
Speaking out as a mod on another forum would be way out of line.Other forums have other mods who are perfectly capable running their forums the way they see fit, and I am not willing to presume to tell them how to do their job.

My opinion is that everyone has the right to their own opinion.Just as everyone has the right to disagree.When people resort to insults they not only make MLUKFC an uncomfortable place to visit, they undermine their own arguments.Making a coherent point with examples is one thing, but acting like a loony will only result in you being treated like a loony.It seems to me that those who throw insults round do themselves harm more than anything else.

It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings.There is a world of difference between agreeing with a person,and what the person is saying.

I don't think we need all to agree on everything Mrs Mouse, but this is about whether it's acceptable for a few people to verbally abuse others just because they have a different opinion, or step up and defend Meat.

I too am sure Meat is well aware of what has been going on .. I hope if he is he is equally disturbed. He's made it cler he doesn't expect abuse here, and I don't see him as the kind of person who thinks others are fair game because they are loyal and staunch fans.

I trust you're not suggesting that I should haul the cross around without comment. I have been patient, I have been courteous in my responses. I am rather tired of being the target for the kind of comments I posted at the start of this thread. And it's apparent that I am not the only one to feel it has gone too far and for too long.

And Mouse, I agree with everything you say. However, as a particular target I don't see the need to bear abuse repeatedly without comment, nor accept it as a cross I should bear. Like Meat, I have come to the point where enough's enough. :!:

EXACTLY!!! This is what I tried to say last night. Maybe, if you feel the need to lash out about something, you should take the time to evaluate the messenger and where they generally stand on issues, then react accordingly. I have do this with the crazy news casts all the time - take into consideration what station I am watching before I accept and move on or decide to fire off an e-mail about what I just saw. Name calling never accomplishes anything. Just take a moment to consider the source when reacting to a situation.

ROCK ON MEAT LOAF FANS!!!

First things first:
Starting a post in here and pondering about how long it will take to get locked or moved isn't the best way to start off.
I'll decide later if I'll do that and or not and that's not your business at all.

I agree that that one comment made in the now split thread crosses the line and I'm not tolerating this.
Next one to post a comment like this will get his/her account suspended for one week.
If that doesn't help - next time that person get's banned. I hope that is clear enough.

Then again, you all should learn to tolerate other people's opinions, even if you do not like it at all.
It simply doesn't make any sense to argue again and again in order to convince your opponent.
We all have seen that this does not work. Having said that, a little less could sometimes be a little more. Give this a thought please.

Thank you Rainer. I trust that the comments I listed at the beginning of this thread fall under the umbrella of your warning.

TOLERATE

That is the word I have been fishing around looking for in the past few hours.

TOLERATE

You do not have to accept what is being said, but you do need to be able to allow ceratin things to just be said without reaction.

TOLERATE

Couldn't have said it better myself R. Thank you from the very bottom of my little bat heart!!!

ROCK ON TOLERANT FANS!!!!

Please don't take offense, David, but what you are saying is probably alot easier TO say, as it's not happening to you.

Fact of the matter is that certain people have been VERY abusive towards Caryl to the point of cruelty at times. She's defended herself with dignity and at times, even with humor when she's been able to muster it. I think some would find that an almost impossiblity if it were happening to them.

It's very easy to tell others to turn the other cheek, so to speak, when it's not your cheek that is needing the turn.

It's also difficult when you've run out of cheek.

[quote=tink][quote="Please don't take offense, David, but what you are saying is probably alot easier TO say, as it's not happening to you.
It's also difficult when you've run out of cheek.[/quote]

Maybe it is not happening to me now, but it has happened to me in the past my friend. I have had my fair share of verbal garbage piled at my inbox - to the point of near breakdown. Sometimes if you feel people are piling up the abuse at you, it is time to take a vacation from the place that is causing you grief. I have been forced to do this from all Jim Steinman places on the internet. As much as I love Jimmy's crazy ways and amazing music, going to places his fans are at causes me pain in my heart that I just cannot tolerate at this point in my life.

ROCK ON FIRE BALL!!!

TOLERATE

Fireball aka Meat Loaf said:
putdowns, Lies and just plan being angry over what I don't know I will not tolerate.

I think that covers needless verbal abuse. And like Meat I see no reason to tolerate that in any colour .. other's different views, yes. Name calling and abuse, no. Hopefully Rainer's post will signal an end to it.

However, I have no intention of taking a vacation from this place. That would be giving in to the bullies, and I am made of stronger stuff than that. :)

Carol forgot to change accounts before she posted her message :oops: .

Her message is now below this one :wink:

im not saying we should all agree on everything,my post wasnt directed to you,it was directed to the people who think that insulting people is acceptable on a public forum,i havent got a problem with people defending themselves as long as they dont bring themselves down to the bullies level,which must be quite hard sometimes i can imagine.

Tink i suppose everyone to be one happy family is pretty unlikely, all im saying is that people should at least remain civil even if they dont agree with whats being said.

Thank you Mr and Mrs Mouse .. I didn't really think you were suggesting that abuse should be acceptable .. and yes, sometimes it is hard to respond without sinking to the bullies' level. I don't think I have fallen into this trap. The reason I raised the issue was to effect some stand before I did, and before others got too discouraged.

That Rainer has signalled verbal abuse is not acceptable is something I value and respect, and trust this will signal an end to it. :)

I now see that the posts I was responding to were due to a techincal thang and not two minds that speak as but one :) .. but I guess Mouse was saying essentially the same thing earlier :)

umm i go out for a bite to eat and I miss so much.

Things seem to be slightly straighter now and I'm very pleased about that, I do remain concerned about some of the terminology being bandied around.
for example Tolerate - Imho we should not tolerate bad behaviour or meanness.
Personally I would like to see a lot more mutal respect and a lot more "practise what you preach", I'm fed up of the " I'll say what I want and have a right to" attitude".

From personal experience I do not hold with the theory that we should move away from bullying or unpleasantness, I have always believed in conforting my issues as that is the only way I can deal with them and live with myself.

Finally I will share something with you all that only a few know and maybe this will give you food for thought.

My 13 year old threatened to take his own life this summer due to bullying. I was too scared to leave him alone for 30 seconds for fear of what he might do. He had been driven into a deep state of despair due to verbal and physical abuse at school.
As a mother i do my best and find my self telling him things like, the offenders are immature and things will improve with age.
Then I come on here and see people getting away with (by my personal standards) some appalling behaviour and comments, and I sit back and I despair :?

I don't expect comformity or unity on all issues, but I do expect people to have respect and be able to put accross their point without being objectionable or personally insulting.

Family friends any group will never agree but I think Flying Mouse summed it up when he said
and that my friends is called maturity

You definitely HAVE NOT fallen into the trap Caryl .. and for that I thank you. And thank you for raising this issue .... something that should have been done a long time ago. All I can add is that I echo everything that people have said in support of Caryl ... and thank you Rainer for taking a stand and hopefully bringing an end to the verbal abuse once and for all :)

Vicki

***E D I T***

ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!!

I Couldn't Have Said That better myself :))
Vicki

Thank you very much. It really is all about the music to me. In most cases, I could really care less about what Meat and the band are wearing (well, maybe I am somewhat interested in what Patti has on, seeing as I do think she is "hot"), but it is about how this music makes me feel and what it does to my soul.

Few artists entire cataloge of work touches my heart the way Meat's music touches me. I could really give a flying fig if Jim, James, Webber, or even Meat himself wrote the song - what matters in my mind's eye is the musical delivery - not only Meat Loaf's voice but the entire package. I see way beyond this being a show about one man, but rather a cast of characters who all contribute.

ROCK ON EXCELLENT MUSIC!!!

I agree. I felt the "magic" the night I saw Meat sing CHSIB the first time at the Mohegan Sun this past September ... and I felt that same magic again this past weekend when I saw Simon & Garfunkel live for the first time in Atlantic City :)

Sorry ... I didn't mean to go off topic ... but I just can't get that S&G show out of my mind :roll:

Vicki

I totally agree Mouse. I just wish that other people could see it that way :?



Maria

Thanks for sharing. I am a mother too... kids 19 and 17. I can imagine how that must feel like for a mother.

I'm probably gonna piss off the mods and admin over here but... that's what it started to look like to me here. English is not my native tongue, that's a disadvantage, but... The bully, the victim and the silent crowd...
I resent that. I refuse to be a part of the silent crowd. We are all adults here, but that picture came to mind.

I don't like what's going on over here the past few weeks as far as insults and abuse is concerned.
I read some people are afraid to say anything, concerned if they were gonna be the next victim.

I'm not. I state my case untill someone stops me.
I saw CarylB attacked recently, David a while ago... and saw some other stuff I just don't like.

I understand mods use their good judgment on different boards. I do. And if I want to keep posting here, I have to obey the rules, we all have to.

Maybe it's just me... maybe I'm not tolerant enough on the Dutch forum. Small forums are far more easy to control. But abuse like that: final warning. You do it again: I kick you out. No warning after warning, no moving to fight club... no registering again under another account, you're OUT. But that's me, and all people are different.

I don't think I've ever offended anybody on this board. And if I did, it was unintentional and I apologize.

I've never been verbally abused on this forum by anyone either. So... you could say it's not my problem.

No, for me personally, it's not. But I see what's going on and I don't like it. And I DO NOT want to be part of the silent crowd.

R and mods will decide as they see fit. I understand and respect mod's decisions. And then it is my choice not to participate anymore and that has to be respected as well. Not important, I see that too. I have great self esteem, but he he... being one of the over 700 members, one Guppie more or less doesn't count :D

I respect the mods. Because they have to be impartial and act on gut instinct and/or common sence. I have GREAT respect for R. The admin of a forum with this amount of members.

But in fact, each member deserves respect. And from what I've read: it isn't there.
Sorry for the long post. Just had to say this.

Very well said Guppie .. you didn't offend me at all.
Thank you :) I absolutely agree with everything you've said .. except this :

Are you kidding :??: Of course every Guppie counts !! It wouldn't be the same without you around here :) Don't even think about leaving :roll:

Vicki

David im with you. :D ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC, and it will always be good music from Meat. :wink:

Guppie, who has imo no need whatsoever to apologise for her eloquent post, wrote:
Not being prepared to be part of the silent crowd Guppie is what makes you the person you are, and as such one who is esteemed and valued in this forum by many of us :)

Sin had just posted:
I know something of what Sin and her family have been going through. Sadly many of us will know a family who number a child who is being bullied. As an adult I don't lose sleep over abuse hurled at me on the internet .. as Mouse has said, those who indulge in this just expose themselves for what they are. However, Sin's point about what we should be able to expect in terms of behaviour from adults, and her despair at coming to a forum she enjoys, and seeing people get away with behaviour and comments which by her standards are appalling ... this is (to quote a line from Life is a Lemon) what this is all about. In a world where some adults model abusive and bullying behaviour without reproach, some children will continue to see it as acceptable and bully their peers who are less able to shrug it off.

Meat was bullied at school. Meat clearly has a special place in his heart for children. The scars of bullying persist long after one has left childhood. We have seen how Meat reacts to what he described as "putdowns" .. they hurt him still, just as they hurt most of those they are levelled at, for let's make no mistake .. such comments are generally intended to ridicule and hurt those they are aimed at. I don't believe he would find abusive bullying behaviour acceptable in this forum, for let's be clear .. the kind of insulting comments we have been talking about here go way beyond the bounds of what could ever be considered humorous, teasing, or in any way acceptable in a society which holds any respect for the feelings of others.

Going back to Guppie's point about not being prepared to be part of the silent crowd, remember the maxim
"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to stand by and do nothing" ?

Some in this forum did not stand by yesterday, and I salute each one of them. And it is only when each and every one of us takes such a stand, wherever we are and whenever we see abusive bullying taking place, that we can send a clear and consistent message that this is not to be tolerated, that it is not acceptable, and perhaps gradually there will be fewer children subjected to this and their lives scarred and damaged. Because make no mistake, when verbal abuse is hurled at children it is indeed evil, and I don't believe I need add the "imo" rider to this statement, not in a world I want to inhabit.

Couldn't Have Said It Better Caryl:)

Thanks, both of you. 8)

I agree with what was said about tolerating but that I think should be aimed at the two or three particular individuals who seem to like picking someone out and chipping away and scrutinising every single word that is typed. As far as I can see it has been the same two/three people every time and out of the 700 odd people on this fansite, I think they are the ones who need to understand what TOLERATE is. They seem to have very strong views on how Meat should be supported and how we act and sometimes I can't help but question are they actually fans at all or do they just come on here to provoke? Anyway that is neither here nor there. I just hope they read all these posts and realise that people are on Caryls side here, and in no way is she the one in the wrong as we all have different ways of showing out support for Meat, and as someone quite rightly said, this IS a fansite after all, and its for fans. Please don't take anything I have said to be rude or disrespectful, thats just the way I see things. Chin up Caryl.
:)
Chrissy x

Guppie...you rock! Would you mind if I nominated you as "Board Goddess" for your wonderful personality and amazing people skills???

ROCK ON GOOD PEOPLE!!!!

Yes, I'd mind because that would embarass the hell out of me :lol:

Whooooooooooooooo, :D way to go Guppie. :wink:

LOL~!

Ya' know, my fave bartender has a chocolate martini as one of her specialties. I cannot watch her make one without thinking of my wonderous Internet friend Guppie. I think I shall have to have one this weekend and toast to level-headedness.

:-)

ROCK ON WEB FRIENDS!!!

ummm, what could i say that is intelligent and portrays how i feel after reading this thread?- quite frankly i can't!

i'm upset, angry, annoyed, disappointed and a thousand and one other mixed up feelings that i hoped i would never feel again.
Bullying sucks! i suffered 6 years at the end of verbal bullying and it stinks, there is no need for it and i hoped id never feel it or witness it ever again.

If you belong to this board, you like, love, adore or worship meat. Therefore, we should be united!
However, there is a beginning of a devide appearing and its based on how much you love meat.

Stuff it!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there is no need to verbally abuse someone because their opinion differs- a friendly debate is one thing, insults and abuse is another.

please can you all remember why you joined and be friends, there is enough hatred in this world without it being added here.

thanks for letting me have my say
kaz

ChrissybabezNI wrote:
Absolutely right Chrissybebez .. and I hope this point does not get lost
Thank you :) And you have expressed your view clearly and directly without resorting to abusive language to or about those to whom you refer. It's easy really isn't it! You can do it, I can do it, most people on this board can do it.

As I've said the behaviour of these few doesn't give me sleepless nights .. but it IS rude, it IS unnecessary and should be unacceptable here.. I'm not looking to have anything named after me :) .. just that I and others should be able to expect fair and courteous treatment, and Rainer's post indicates that in future this should be the case. I notice that on another thread some posts, presumably referring to me, and presumably in negative terms, have been removed by Rainer. I see that Mouse has locked that particular thread. I thank them both for taking action.

Kaz - my heart went out to you as I read your post as i know your heart went into writing it. Thank you for having the courage to share your experiences and feelings. I have been through hell since before May with what has been happening to my son and this is the first time I have said anything directly and publicly here.

Guppie - you're a luv! Thanks for your kind words.

Caryl - what can I say! Thanks for being there!

he he.. you remembered. My favo drink, Martini. 8)
We're in different time zones, so getting drunk at the same time is not an option , he he... :lol: '

But you raise your glass and drink, and I'll do the same. ~~~~ the time-difference. Hell... we'll get drunk in cyberspace :P

original sin, thank you for your kind words, bullying sucks but with love and support its easy to get over it....i sufered in silence for 4 of those years because they made me feel as though it was my fault they were bullying me but when i finally spilt it all out to my parents it became easier, love and support are vital!

Kaz, you said you thought you couldn't convey how you felt intelligently .. well you were wrong there :) I was at school in a gentler time .. our classes were small and the teachers watchful; I didn't experience or observe any bullying .. I was lucky. So when I see adults unable to disagree without resorting to name calling my eyebrows tend to raise up, but it doesn't resonate with me like it must with you. Good that you spoke up then and that you have spoken up now. People will vary in their level of commitment to Meat as an individual .. but no-one deserves verbal abuse because of it.

thanks caryl, i just never feel that you can truely convey how you feel about topic like this, in my case it makes it harder because there are so many bad memories that come flooding back due to it.

That's NOT what I meant.
Just saying "These 3 are always wrong, they are talking bullcrap. So they should learn what tolerance is." is not much better than posting a rude comment. There are different views on a lot of things in this forum. We all should learn to tolerate and respect them. And having said that, respecting an opinion, even if you disagree wholeheartedly, and saying so is sometimes the better way out of a endless and useless argument. That's what I meant with "a little less could be a little more". Give this a thought.

Thank-you R

Rosie

Yip thats a fair enough point, I wasnt here when most of that went on so I dont know the full story, I was just writing how it looked to me

Chrissy x

I think your vision's OK Chrissy :) I have not used rude abusive terms when responding to people, and nor did you. You simply described what you saw some people doing without applying any negative epithets.

Well, to quote Alan Jackson & Jimmy Buffett....

"IT'S FIVE O'CLOCK SOMEWHERE!!!"

ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!

In that case David,

Pour me something tall and strong
make it a hurricane
before I go insane.
It's onyl half past twelve but i don't care
It's five o'clock somewhere!

Sorry for being off-topic but this song is now playing ont he cd player and I couldn't resist!

he he... that's a great quote!
Well, it's 11.15 pm over here, but hey, it's 5 o'clock somewhere, so here's to good music and the joys of life.
Buttoms up. :D

Such powerful thoughts have been so clearly expressed in this thread that I reckon it is time for me to chuck my 50p in (I know it used to be ha'penn'orth or 0.5p, but hey, that was years ago, and 0.5p ain't what it used to be!).

To me, like so many others, the ritual and horrific verbal abuse that CarylB (and occasionally others, EVEN ML himself) has had to put up with is entirely abhorrent (to my knowledge, that's the first time I've ever used that word, and I am appalled to find that it's first outing should be on such a fantastic forum, which main aim is to allow discussion of Meat Loaf and his Music).

I agree 100% that this board should be about tolerance...

That is, tolerance of any OPINION about Meat or his music. On no account however should that mean that anyone should have to put up with horrible abuse.

It doesn't matter how good your English is, or how intelligently you communicate.

All that matters is that the good name of the site is upheld, and not sullied by vicious attacks on regular contributors.

Kudos to the mods / regs or whatever the right word is. R sounds a bit scary but is 100% right. Whatever you think of SueW's words, the intent behind closing that thread was clearly right, and all manner of flying mice get my vote too. :lol: Lets hope these clear signals, and follow up action, discourage the people who waste their time and ours by attacking people rather than discussing opinions.

Meat has had a stressful year to say the least. Let's get back to celebrating Meat and his work. Fan is indeed short for fanatical, and there is no harm in being a fan. That's not to say you have to be as devoted as Caryl, everybody supports Meat in their own little way. But that does not make Caryl's way wrong.

I'll let you in to a secret, that I have not told very many people at all about.

I was bullied verbally by many people all through primary and high school, for several reasons. There was a tramp in town with the same name as me. I never wore trendy clothes. My name is Simon. I was very skinny.

It hurts like hell.

But it makes you tougher. I'm glad to see that Caryl is tough as nails against the bullies that threaten this site with closure through putting off other genuine visitors (and that is NOT abuse - it's a complement to Caryl).

In fact, I myself went too far the wrong way into toughness and ended up hurting people with my own verbal abuse.

Every time I think about that now I hang my head in shame, and I wish that it could be undone. But it can't.

The only way to prevent the hurt is NOT TO DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Please - whoever is responsible - stop. It doesn't help, and the vast majority of people at this site do not support abuse in the slightest.

I have changed my ways. Meat always says that all he ever wants to do is become a better person. Well, ICHSIBM. I recommend it to any bully who takes the easy, cowardly, option by hiding behind an internet connection and a keyboard. The hurt still hurts. I KNOW.

Goodnight my friends. I am not leaving this site. I truly believe that we are extremely lucky to have this site, AND visits from Meat Loaf.

And I will support anyone who has abuse levelled at them, for what my support is worth.


Love, S.

Not sure if i'm right, but i'm reading the "tolerate" bit as meaning, we should all tolerate on both sides. Think a lot of people are seeing it as it's meant only for the ones who are hurling abuse. Everyone should have an opinion and people forever being critised for it, makes for a lot of people not posting how they feel for fear of being critisised. I know I for one have gone to hit the reply button a lot lately and thought better of it after seeing how my posts may be read by some people. :-(

Deb

That is exactly what I mean Deb! It is a damned shame anyone should be even the least bit hesitant to say anything they please around here. I have seen people raked through the coals by groups of others just for stating an opinion.

ROCK ON FREE SPEECH!!!

David said:

ICHSIBM!!! 8)

Yep it is a shame people have to feel like that, but they do. Free speech would be a wonderful thing;-)

BTW I come into your catagory 1 and am proud of it:-)

I have been following this thread with interest because it seems to be a common complaint on all forums that are on the internet. I have been impressed with the comments here & the good common sense shown by all. The consensus seems to be is that while honest differences of opinion are expected & even welcome...name-calling , finger pointing & rudeness are out of place here. The tough part is knowing that it will happen again & again. People Will lose their temper & say something int e rmper [SORRY my silly delete button isn't working] in a temper that they wouldn't have usually. The difference is if it is a habit with that paticular person. Then the poor moderators have a problem!

Thank you Simon for your thoughtful post. It takes a lot to admit one has been the victim of bullying .. and I sense your understanding is due to your own experience. You are in august company for Meat was bullied at school, but not being a "skinny" kid he learned to use his size to stare down his attackers:)

You said:
And that is the point. I reserve the right to disagree with people but I do it without hurling abuse. Freedom of speech should never encompass that. And like Meat I see no reason for anyone to tolerate ..."putdowns, Lies and just plain being angry over what I don't know .." He said he didn't need our money .. what he needed was our loyalty .. and he has that from me :)

Well, I wasn't going to comment here, as this thread was started w/ a quote by me and I said what I had to say. Still think it's valid. Now after 4 pages, I think there have been some interesting things said and I feel compelled to add my thoughts.

Several unpleasant things that happen on this type of forum have been mentioned, i.e. name-calling, verbal abuse, bullying, harassment and what-have-you. As someone mentioned, these happen all over the net, unfortunately. IMO, in the past this site has been one of the most pleasant to visit and free of a lot of that garbage I see elsewhere.

Name-calling/verbal abuse is obviously unfortunate, doesn't belong here, but there human beings here who lose their tempers. That is not an excuse, simply a fact. An isolated incidence or two, does not in itself constitute bullying or harassment, but rudeness. When it continues, that is bullying/harrassment.

However, continual name-calling/verbal abuse is not the only form of bullying/harassment that exists. I've seen other forms here and elsewhere.

When one's posts are continually responded to w/ a superior and condescending attitude...I know better than you (this has happened on many topics) one tends to feel bullied/harassed as well. Debate and sparring is one thing, always having to have the last word is another. No matter how politely it is said, the impression is left that you need not bother to post because the responder knows better than you and can express it better. Leaves one feeling why bother to post if that is the stuff you get in response.

This may sound over-sensitive but I'm talking continual repeated actions like this, going on way longer than the name-calling things which tend to be stopped. I'm pretty sure others here have experienced the same thing.

What I have said involves my opinions of the words used. All JMHO.

It's about the music,
Terry

mmmmmmm i wonder who you are reffering to? well said!

CAN THIS PLEASE STOP HERE


There is no need for this to continue. We are all adults here, for the most part, and there is no need to resort to this.


Tbuck, you have brought up a valid point but I feel that I must disagree with you.
This is a forum where people can air their views and opinions. If people feel that some posts are written with a condesending view, well I guess that's their opinion but I don't understand why that would stop people from posting their views.
This is a place where freedom of speech rules and everyone has the right to express their opinions and not be penalized for it. I'm sorry if you feel that you cannot express your views on a topic because you feel that it will be responded to in a condesending way but it should not stop you. Some people have very pointed views and are not afraid to post them. I congratulate those people because it takes alot of self confidence to throw yourself out to the wolves like that. I just wish that I could be that confident and self assured :D


Maria ~ This is just my opinion

Thanks for your response Maria,
while we apparently disagree that's in the spirit of discussion I enjoy seeing here.

You haven't walked in my shoes, perhaps I didn't explain it very well. It's not that I won't speak up when I feel the need to. I have just done so, as have you. Congrats...thrown ourselves to the proverbial wolves!

My point was that constant authoritarianism, superiority, are unlikely to encourage free speech, rather they stifle it. While that may be someone's style, the same can be said about those who indulge in name-calling. I find both offensive, and those who try to continually berate others for their opinions more offensive than the occassional name-caller.

You said "everyone has the right to express their opinions and not be penalized for it" and that is exactly my point. Thank you.

T

tbuck that was sort of what I was trying to say:-)

Deb

spot on terry

Yes, I too have felt patronised at times by some postings. I won't give examples as I appreciate that this might not have been the writer's intention, just as if my use of English should give that impression it is not intended. But whilst I may find it irritating, I personally don't feel abused or bullied by it, and if I respond I do so without abusive language. I agree we're all entitled to our opinions .. the only thing I question is the way they are sometimes expressed. I watched Meat become increasingly defensive about the way criticisms of him were expressed and, along with many others, voiced my concerns. I saw him leave this forum and was like the vast majority greatly saddened. I was like the vast majority thrilled to have him return.

He said then:
" .... but putdowns, Lies and just plan being angry over what I don't know I will not tolerate. come on!! I don't need you money I need your Loyality" I will, like others here, continue to question when this line is crossed.

For me it's about the music, the acting, the humour, the personality but above all the huge heart of the man this site is dedicted to. And now he's back and he's fit and well, perhaps it's time to draw a line under this, celebrate his return to health, and trust that his wishes are respected.

His entrance last night was superb and shows his amazing humour .. he has tweaked the nose of fate and shown once again what a consummate performer and professional he is. No wonder we love him :)

tbuck factually stated:

Now after 4 pages

and... into it's fourth day...

imo...it's time to be over now...we're just on a dizzying merry-go-round now...imo.. now that Meat is back and better than ever... it's time to move on to what all are saying the forum is about..the music ..etc...

this dead horse is starting to have a stench...

we can always come back here should we spot the abuses again...

but for now...please...from my heart....please...

for now...

let's get to the joy of the man...being back...

let's...as he should...have some fun with the rest of the tour...

please....

tink...

i agree with tink it is time to draw a line under all of this and move on!!!!



Rosie

_____________________________________________________________

Just Quickly:

Interesting discussion to which I'd like to add the following...

There are people on here who have negative points of view (on an album, or a song, or a film) who get attacked for being negative- albeit usually because they've worded it a bit offensively i.e. Titanic Sucked as opposed to: I didn't like Titanic because Leonardo Dicaprio looked too young for that part (my opinion)
They often get their opinions dismissed for being mean.

There are equally, however, people who get criticised for being positive (on an album, or a song, or a film) They often get their opinions 'dismissed' as being overdone, or rediculous or obsessive (I've had that one pointed at me :lol: )

It is important, not only to discuss, but to allow opposing points of view without 'dismissing' them because their author is...whomever.

I don't know if that makes sense-but let's just say that different people on here become known for being 'negative' or 'positive' (we've all seen that, right?) and then we dismiss everything they say for that reason. That has GOT to stop- look at each post as it's own thing and disagree of agree with THE POST...I may disagree with Caryl one day (as an example) and totally agree with her the next- so let's not let past squabbles creep into current discourse...it happens quite a bit on here-


Having said that- you guys are the cutest :D

Manipulating people and patronising people, is just as much a form of bullying as being abusive is.
My wife deleted my previous post, she was concerned about any
backlash, as she is one of the people who you have "put" in the
picture as you see it.
Is this the way a forum should be? people thinking how they are going
to be picked on for having an opinion?
this is a great forum, do not let it be taken over by a few people who
refuse to let others have ideas of a nature different to them.
tell me did you create ROL as a place you call heaven?

... you know... i was so sincere with what i said this morning...but now...

time for some fun...

PM me with your vote on who answers next and i'll tally and let you know who won via return PM... it's pretty predictable at this point with few choices ... :lol:

tink of ROL..and dang proud of it... :lol:

Why?

This is site feedback....the place where people should be able to post freely (but with respect for others) how they feel about this site.

As a moderator I've found this thread interesting. I've also found it sad to read that people won't post because they are worried about the possible backlash (whichever form it comes in). If people don't tell us what is worrying them then we can't do much about it (apart from obvious abuse).

If it's just that you are bored by the thread, then don't read it! There are threads on this board that I don't read because I'm not interested in them. For example that "One For The Girls!!!" thread bores me silly so I don't read it...I didn't say after 4 days that that was enough and let's move on. I just read other threads on the board.

I was actually pleased to read all these comments in this thread that didn't resort to name-calling or other abuse that happens on this board.

To quote that worn out phrase on this board I Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself.

Eventually this thread will die a nature death (as all threads do) but until the time I think that all members should be able to post about any abuse they have suffered from posts or were worried that they may have suffered if they had expressed their feelings.

Or if members are still too worried to post about it, PM one of the moderators.

SueW

Does it count as abuse if you get kicked out of a different web forum/group/community (one founded and run by regular posters here) just days after expressing an unpopular opinion in a thread? Just curious...

Most of you will not know me too well, I don't post regularly but I do read most of the General Messages, ICHSIB, Tour Talk and Site Feedback threads. And Fight Club once in a while, although that's been fairly quiet lately. I do what Sue describes - I glance at most of the titles and read the ones i want to. There are quite a few of topics I have personally thought boring and equivalent to the well-beaten horse left out in the sun, but if they're of interest to you, more power to ya. Post away and I'll ignore them as I have been. :)

I have to say I'm pleased that I haven't noticed too many people attacking or flaming at anyone in this thread, mainly expressing their opinion. There's always one in every crowd, whether it's He Who Shall Remain Nameless or the guy in the back of the class picture sticking his tongue out and flipping the bird. C'est la vie.

I was picked on in school too. Do I wish it hadn't happened? Maybe, but I wouldn't be the person I am today without that. Maybe I'd have been a better person, but I don't think so.

I also fell in with a destructive bunch of people during my eighth grade year and picked on other people when I had the chance. Do I wish I hadn't? Absolutely. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could find every person I made fun of and apologize to them. Not gonna happen. And that's a shame.

I've also been picked on in cyberspace. On a different message board, I was cyber-stalked for a while last year by someone "pretending" to be me, right down to coopting both my screen name and my "real" name. This person was very disruptive and mean-spirited and I do not know for sure why it happened to this day. I had to make a decision as to what to do about it. I didn't want to leave or stop participating, so my mother kept saying "Why do you care so much about this jerk?" I had a friend asking why I was letting someone live rent-free in my head. Never did come up with a good answer for either of those questions.

For me, this other board was a haven, a refuge, a place where I felt like I belonged at the end of a day working with people I don't particularly like. Instead of reacting with anger and retorts and namecalling, I resorted to humor. I gave this person two posts in response and then said "I'm done, we're not doing this anymore." And I stuck to it. You know what? The other person eventually got bored (?) & went away.

I am trying to remember to get over myself on a daily basis, and remember that this is just a web forum, my job is just a way to pay the mortgage, etc. None of it is life & death, fortunately for me. If I don't like what's happening on a message board, I can go away for a few days or just plain stop reading someone's posts. If I don't like the job, well, at least I have one and I can come home to my quiet and my solitude and read a good book.

Anyhow. I'm rambling (which surprises some of you not a bit) and am also very tired, so I am going to say good night now. Sorry this is so long... at this rate I will catch up with some of you in post lengths if not post numbers!! Have a good one, wherever you are.

I agree 100% with you Sue!

The only reason I decided to stop hodling back on the send button was so that others knew there was actually people out there who had a different opinion to the ones forced down our throats on a daily basis. Don't get me wrong I also chose to ignore stuff I dont want to read, but thats not quite the same as being able to ignore people patronising others etc... Like a few have said bullying exists on many different levels, its just some are on a much more obvious level. Doesnt make these people the only ones in the wrong.

Wonder if tink had many votes for you being next to post Sue:-) I actually wrote 2 posts in reply to that post and deleted them, wonder how many others did that as well for fear of rocking the boat. Is that what a lot of you want? a forum full of people who have to think twice before posting? I'm sure the list of who was to post next wouldnt be so obvious if everyone felt they could express an opinion. As it is, maybe its obvious because theres only a few who feel able to say how they feel. Seems theres a lot who will agree with one half of the forum, while the others who agree with the rest are afraid to post for what ever reason. Also I now know this isnt just how I feel after having many people tell me this is also how they feel, but are afraid to say it.

Deb

Deb wrote:

Wonder if tink had many votes for you being next to post Sue:-) I actually wrote 2 posts in reply to that post and deleted them, wonder how many others did that as well for fear of rocking the boat.

sadly nobody wanted to play ... :cry:

and even I was rrrong ... imagine that ... :lmao:

sorry my play ...

chased you away...

BURma shave...

tink ... off to attempt to get thru the day unscathed ...

Only if there were pictures of Kasim in it :lmao: :lmao:

Well, in my chatting on the messengers last night (BTW, I LOVE chatting...feel free to send me a message, the link is on every post I make here) I can count of three people who said they wanted to say something, but were afraid of being chided and ridiculed for what they said. I cannot count the times I have had a nearly full inbox of profanity laced PM's (on this board) for actions I have taken as a mod on the General forum. It is just funny when someone really does not contribute anything of much substance to a board, but can lay into a mod in a PM with all kinds of new ideas.

ROCK ON SILENT MAJORITY!!!

____________________________________________________

ROCK ON NO HATE!!!

what's there too be afraid of?? come on people now's the time, get your act together and say what you want to say.

This is turning into a thought provoking topic! Although yet again I do see an emphasis shift away from the original meaning of the thread.
My thoughts at this moment in time are that this topic was created due to the persistent use of derogatory name calling.
Although I’m still not quite sure, I do hope we are all in agreement that this is not acceptable.
I see no need what so ever to resort to base abuse and name calling to make a point.

Thereafter we have some more food for thought, concern has been expressed that posts appear patronising or condescending. Well I do have to agree on this one, I have read posts by certain people that I find incredibly pompous, self ingratiating, patronising and condescending, although I doubt I see them in the same posts to which the inference is made.

How we interpret what we read, is influenced by many factors, including our own personal feelings about the author , which in turn unfortunately can be influenced by others.

Writing style is a personal trait, just as the colour of your hair or eyes.

Can we say they same for a style that includes direct and offensive putdowns? Imho NO

After all is said and done this is a FAN CLUB site and I don’t think anyone should be surprised if they are challenged if they make direct attacks on members “fanship” or start questionable topics e.g Meat Loaf is not a God?

All are saying they know that some people will not post because of………and each has there own reason. What I can say is I know that some people do not post on “serious” topics because they have seen others be called “sad”, “Obsessive”, or “sycophants” and do not what to be in the same position.

The old, saying sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me” may to a degree be true in an “adult world”, but it does make for an uncomfortable relationship.

It is both unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that there will never be a difference of opinion, the only thing being asked, is for any discussion or debate to be conducted in a civil manner .

How we interpret what we read, is influenced by many factors, including our own personal feelings about the author , which in turn unfortunately can be influenced by others.

Not on my part it doesn't. I only joined the forum in april I think and have only recently started reading regularly so I have no preconcieved ideas of anyone, everything I think is from what i've read recently. it's this alone thats led me to speak up.

After all is said and done this is a FAN CLUB site and I don’t think anyone should be surprised if they are challenged if they make direct attacks on members “fanship” or start questionable topics e.g Meat Loaf is not a God?

There are very many different levels of fans and just as I don't agree with anyone being put down for being a "superduper" fan. I also don't agree with "the lesser obsessed fans" being belittled for their views. This isn't only done in the "Meats not god" topics.

It is both unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that there will never be a difference of opinion, the only thing being asked, is for any discussion or debate to be conducted in a civil manner

Very true, but just because someones not hurling verbal abuse does not mean they aren't having a holier than thou attitude :)

Deb ( who is very harrased and stressed with 5 kids :!: so please people don't pick my words apart, if I havent the time some have to sit here and get it word perfect :lol: )[/b]

I have to agree with you, about debates being discussed properly and as this thread has gone on I have been able to see other points of view more clearly. Whoever mentioned the fact that people on here come from a number of different countries and that can sometimes make for misunderstanding was exactly right. People can sometimes put an opinion a certain way and for want of a better explaination, put it in a way that may sound ok to them but not to someone else who reads it. I guess misunderstandings and differences of opinion will cause upset from time to time, and it's best to get it out inthe open sooner rather than later so things can get smoothed out. I know as I have done this myself as some people did not agree with what I wrote on my last post, and after reading any comeback on it I have to say my views have changed also, But as I wrote at the very end of it, I didn't want anyone to think I was being rude or disrespectful as I meant to malice in that post at all. Although I do think its very sad that people don't want to join in topics but I feel that after a lot of things that have been said in this topic, and feelings are out in the open, that everyone, myself included will allow for differences in opinion in the future which I'm sure can only be a good thing, now we know how other people are feeling and how much our words can matter.

Chrissy

and then, imo, we are back to personal opinion and interpretation, like I said in my earlier post, each of us will see this in different places, and not necessarily the same place :?

Sin (who apart from the 5 8O kids) can so relate to this :lol:

Couldn't Have Said It Better Deb :)

Hi,

I have been mostly lurking here since the beginning of this last year, I am not often tempted to post... but I do enjoy the community. But I wanted to say that this is an EXCELLENT topic, a very valuable thread and discussion, and there are some very articulate, intelligent, and thought provoking posts here. This is what being a community at it's very best can be.... To accept that life has conflict in it, but to learn from it and work through it.... and not run and hide.

Well done you guys.
:)
Di

Sin wrote:
And that's so true. Who's to say if someone says for eg that they "refuse to dumb down their post for anyone" they are being patronising, "holier than thou" or merely expressing something they feel strongly? I may blink .. but I don't take that as abuse or intentional bullying.

But if someone says "you're talking bollocks!" or "talking crap", or calls me, or anyone, names for expressing their opinion, I think they cross a line .. a line of courtesy certainly, and in the case of name calling the line that separates debate and verbal abuse. When it's consistently applied to one or two persons, even when they express a similar opinion to others, that's imo bullying