Was Bat Done Too Early?
 

Now I am not saying its a bad song its an excellent song but was done too early in his career, it set an unmatched phenomenon that even today Meat cannot match. Because of that Bat Out Of Hell is the worst song cause it practically ruined his career in the eye of the public. Imagining breaking your record first attempt and not able to do it again. Yeah that pretty much weighed down all his songs and his effort for them and even Steinman's song writing ability. What would they do? They already jumped the shark. Now if they did that song for Bat 2 or even Bat 3 that would have been a hell alot better for his career because it would've made the flow of excellent songs more wide and fluid instead of choppy and slow.

:twisted: In other words, Bat Out Of Hell is too good? :lol:

I don't think it ruined his career at all. It made it.

I like the vast majority of Meat's work, but what in his career would have put him on the radar like Bat?

Meat Loaf & Stoney is all but unknown.

Would Dead Ringer have been as successful as it was if Meat was an unknown at the time of release?

I don't believe Bad Attitude or Blind Before I Stop (for everything that was right with the former, and despite what Farian f*cked up in the latter) would have springboarded Meat to public acclaim.

So it's not until Bat II, in 1993, where Meat has real standout success with an album or a song.

Meat was what? 46 then? Not many 46 year old people get into the charts unless they have a track record and an established following. Without that the record companies are very wary of investing money in a mature performer.
And the material............
Imagine Meat & Jim trying to sell their brand of music as relitivly unknowns to a record exec in 93 :faint:
Who would invest in an album that starts off with a 10 min power ballad sang by a big set dude in his 40's and a girl on the gigging circuit in the north of England?

But Meat and Jim had proved themselves right and the music trends wrong when Bat sold (and continued to sell) in big numbers.

But without the success Meat & Jim had already proved themselves capable of, I don't think anyone would have touched it.

WTTN, a great album, but not as successful as Bat II. Again, I think if it wasn't for Meat established rep, he would have had a hard time getting a deal and selling the album.

And I don't believe things would have been easier for CHSIB, Bat III, HCTB, and HIHB.

I know some people believe his most recent work to be his best, but IMHO it would have a snowman's chance in hell of being heard by anyone if Meat has not already an established and respected artist.


So I don't think Bat was done to early.
I can understand Meat's frustration that everythink is held up to the Bat benchmark, but that's the price of success.
To have something you've done adored by so many people would be a problem i'm sure most singers would like to have :wink:
God, let me have that problem some day :pray:

Meat may well have become famous for his other work, but (as much as I personally enjoy it), I don't think there would have been as much interest established early in his career to pay dividends for later projects.

In fact, i'd go as far as to say this.
Before Meat did Bat II he was on the small club circuit.
The thing that got him out of the small clubs and back into the arenas was the faith Virgin Records had in Meat & Jimmy because they had done it before.
It wasn't Dead Ringer that created that faith and fan base, it wasn't Bad Attitude or Blind Before I Stop.
It was Bat Out Of Hell.

If it wasn't for that faith and interest, I think Meat would still be playing the small clubs now.

Meat has got a lot to be grateful to Bat Out Of Hell for, and so do we, because without it Meat Loaf Live in would have been his last release and we'd never have ever heard his more recent albums.


I think this discussion goes way beyond the subject of "Least Favourite Song" so i'm going to split the thread :up:

It still dogged his career. I mean if Bat Out Of Hell didn't have Bat Out Of Hell in it I think it would've done just as well on Paradise by the dashboard lights alone but lets face it, it created a need for Meat and Jim to top it and it caused their works to suffer. If they were just building up to it, the other works would have gotten better instead of varrying in both production and execution. And I think Bat Out Of Hell would've sounded ALOT better on Bat 3.

:twisted: I can't imagine albums without this song, or with this song added etc :lol: I have to take them for what they are, but I still think the whole album is a career benchmark, and one that served him well when his fortunes were low.

If you wanna see a guy who really peaked too early for his own good, take a look at Bela Lugosi.
Played Dracula in 1931 and spend his whole life trying to live up to that performance, but if it wasn't for that performance he never would have become so famous.
He sank into depression and became addicted to morphine.

As I said above, God grant me the problem of having a piece of my work idolised because I really think I could hack it :pray:

Again it was still a new thing to Meat the songs length and the need to preform it at "every" live show would bring anyone down, I mean imagine having to sing a 12 minute song every concert. The stress of also topping it caused him to get into drugs and agitated his asthma which made his voice for Dead Ringer strained. The record companies wanting another success forced him to rush albums like Midnight at the lost and found, bad attitude, and blind before I stop which needed time and effort he couldn't afford in an effort to top his masterpiece. Lets face his entire career in the 80's was ruined being in the shadow of that success. It ruined so many albums and songs that it may have been better to record it later.

:twisted: Meat has said that he still loves performing Bat and I believe him.
I've sang it myself approx 500 times now (and I think that's a pretty low estimate), and it's one song I NEVER get bored performing 8)

Exactly no one gets bored of it, imagine trying to do that for songs in Bad Attitude, Blind Before I Stop, or Midnight at the lost and found; ever notice how they not been preformed live since the 90's?

'Dogged his career' ? Its only the greatest rock song / performance of all time ! All of Meat's work (and everyone else's) pales in comparison to this masterpiece.

Without Bat Out Of Hell there would have been no Bat 3. If it had been on Bat 3 then no doubt the arrangement and production would have been ~~~~ed up by Desmond Child, and there would be no Todd Rundgren guitar solos or motor cycle guitars.

You can't plan or choose success - it just happens (or not) :shock:

Exactly he couldn't surpass it and his work suffered from it, cause people compared everything even today they compare it to Bat Out Of Hell. If they just took that song out his career would have been secured and he would ahve more eagerness for his work. Hell he might be playing Bad Attitude life today, if the public didn't consider it not on par with the Bat's shadow.

Couldn't be more wrong. BAT established Meat. The pressures from the record company and fans expectations were probably what put Meat over the edge, with problems with his voice not to mention what it did to Jim's writing abilities. I think that Meat and Jim always wanted to top BAT but that is next to impossible.

His still suffered due to it.

Meat's longevity is not down to Bat alone. Give the public a bit of credit!
You would soon tire of a Meat gig year after year if Bat was it's only highlight.
Bat is awesome and if you believe it has not been surpassed then fair enough, but it did set him off on the road of success which he is STILL on and that is due solely to the fact that he has maintained a very high standard throughout his long career.

Bat is like a fine wine.

I fail to see how a successful 40 odd year career is "suffered". There are hundreds of acts that would give their right arm to have had Meats career and successes, whilst not denying that there's been highs and lows (as every career has over that many years) I really cannot see where you're basing your logic.

Because of Bat Out Of Hell they had to set a tempo of lets face it chart topping songs which set a false presidence for Meat and Jim to do better and to match it or fall under the weight of the success. That caused Meat to stress out and ruined our chances of getting Renegade Angel and a Meat and Jim style Bad For Good and instead he was in a emotionally but not entirely powerful Dead Ringer where his voice is haggard and worn. So far the success of Bat Out Of Hell the song which started this phenominon had brought down one record and destroy another. Giving instead Jim's Bad For Good who let's face it we all wish Meat would sing.

This caused a strained Jim and Meat relationship especially with the record company which led Meat bankrupt and forced to force out albums with not the detail he had with Bat but the drive for the same success.

Let Bat 2, a loving project with Meat and Jim sold well and brought him more notice but it didn't top Bat out of Hell which frustrated Meat enough to start to resent his prior success enough so that he blames Jim for taking more money than him from that record cause he of course wrote them all. So suing Jim for unpaid residuals with Bat Out Of Hell he decided to try himself to top Bat now resenting Jim for putting him in the shadow all his life.

Now haggard now he starts suffering from intense asthma attacks and his after producing a less than Bat worthy end to the "trilogy" he preforms a shadow of himself in 3 Bats Live and all live preformances after that have had Meat with his now weakening and wheezing voice.

You can't deny he doesn't sound as good as he did a little before Bat 3 as he did before. It was a steady decline brought on by stress, critic flaming, and a urge to get another hit.


However if he didn't record Bat Out Of Hell later the first album with Paradise by the dashboard light as its highlight renaming the record "Paradise" that would have sold plenty and allowed Meat from straining his voice on a 12 minute opera like song throughout his tour. It would be more widely received due to its shorten name and a more chatchy intro being Paradise by the dashboard light. He most likely wouldn't be all horsed and worn and would've don Renegade Angel and make these songs way better and sooner

Bad for Good
Stark Raving Love
Out Of the Frying Pan
and practically everything on the album.

Then Jim could've replace Midnight at the lost and found with Dead Ringer to help pass with his 3 record contract.

So, so far we have 3 fairly good records with an unstrained Meat voice preforming on top par in return for one song.

The other two would be similar to Welcome to the Neighbourhood and Bad Attiude due to the rush. Then Bat Out Of Hell 2 with all the songs from Pandora's Box.

Meanwhile Jim would have to write new songs for his own album which would fail and be reused in Bat 3, which would be produced by Steinman due to Meat's and Jim's combined success and make it a hell of alot better with Bat Out Of Hell as the intro. Thus making him a hit the world over, since Bat Out Of Hell was ahead for its time anyway it would have made both out lives and theirs so much more fullfilled if they only waited on Bat Out Of Hell.

:twisted: So if there was no Bat, Meat would have been well enough to do Bad For Good, so that would have been his first album (excluding ML&S) in 1981.

What was Jim's second album called again? ;)

BFG, although a lot of folks like it, is not a career creating album like Bat was.

Dead Ringer was released as an album of a established artist, and so did resonablly well. But i'm not convinced that Meat would have set the world ablaze with his version of BFG if it was his first offering.

Sorry, misterfive, but this is bol**cks!! Meat has never been commercially driven.
An artist that has perfomed 100's and 100's of concerts to 1000's and 1000's of fans is not someone who desires a chart hit!

:twisted: Meat isn't, but record comapnies are. David Sonoffabitchenburg and Al Delentash were/are sure motivated by money.
The pressure to perform to their financial standards must have been staggering.

But I still say if Meat's first album hadn't been a big success, he wouldn't have got a second shot.
Just look how hard it was for him to get a shot with something that turned out to be a mega success. If Meat bombed his first time out, it would have been much more difficult to sell him to another label.


I don't know how you work that out :lol:
Performing = popularity = fans = interest in your product = album sales = chart success = more touring = performing = popularity etc etc etc.........

I'm not saying that's the only reason Meat does live shows, but most artists do shows, and part of it is motivated by increasing their album sales and making money.
A guy's got to eat :shrug:

I agree on the the first point.

I'm consulting my accountant on the the second one.

Ok, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but.......chart topping songs? where? In the USA BOOH wasn't even released as a single and the three that were didn't exactly have the bean counters working overtime, 2 Outta 3 was the best selling and that didn't break the top ten!!



Again, success? Meat stated that it was For Crying Out Loud that broke the record, started the phenomenon, as for over here it was Paradise.

Not a fair statement as lets face it, most people would wish anybody else would've sung it :D

In total album sales it didn't but it did in every other way, it sold more initial album sales and faster than BOOH did, a virtually worldwide number one single and a Grammy award and the 2nd and 3rd selling singles beat the 2nd and 3rd selling singles off Bat 1.

I'd say that AFL was the song that brought Meat more worldwide recognition than BOOH so it would be somewhat pointless releasing it in Bat 3 as it wouldn't have topped AFL, unless of course you think Meat "suffered" because of AFL as well.

I'm gonna stop now, I could go on as you're argument has more holes than a fishing net but I'll say this, BOOH the song wasn't the reason the album was so big, it was the album as a whole, remove one part of it and you may just kill the whole thing.

He was losing his house so of course he is going to tour!

There wouldn't be one cause he would be having a better working relation with Meat and we would've also had a Meat version of Total Eclipse of the Heart.

I am not saying it wouldn't have been a hit I am saying that song made was too long, too over the top, and it did turn off so many other more established record companies.

@Monstro's reply
The single for You took the words right out of my mouth reached 39 on US charts, Two out of three made 10 on US charts, and Paradise made it 31. I am not saying this is pretty successful and these songs do provide Meat in a live/tour situation less vocal stress due to the choir accompany and being duets. Bat Out Of Hell has him singing for around seven minutes on high notes. These other don't really require that much and yes for Crying Out Loud was a big break but I am saying all around that song did cause so much turmoil.

I mean the majority of all of us would say that Bat Out Of Hell is his signature song. Thus it set a demand for songs to meet that caliber and style and also made Meat want to have his songs match the length. Maybe if he did this song later we might have had a completely different experience with Meat and his work.

It may have gone different from what I think might happen and it may not but what I am saying is, if he just did that one song later then he would probably have better all around success.

There's so much in here worthy of comment its untrue ! Let's just say you can't unpick one part of Meat's history and then rewrite everything that followed. That way pure speculation lies :wink:.

The fact is Meat, Jim and Todd produced the masterpiece which is BOOH, the song and the album. Every artist would kill for that kind of success at ANY time during their career.

I actually believe that Meat's history is the both most heroic and tragic of careers, but I wouldn't change any of the highs or lows, because that is what makes him so compelling as an artist.

Couldn't make up your mind on what to call my argument? Either lies or speculation?

I admit it is speculation but I didn't like in my statements. If anything you are just be a little too over zealous in my opinion. I mean can't you take anothers opinion.

My opinion is I think his career would be better if they waited on the song Bat Out Of Hell. If you dislike that idea of having it wait for awhile then I don't know why I bothered posting an opinion on a "fan forum".

I meant speculation - which is fairly clear I think. The point was that you can't predict what would've happened in Meat's career to the degree you did without it being pure speculation.

Someone else called it b*llocks, I called it speculation, and I'm 'over zealous' in my opinions ? :roll:

If everyone stopped posting their ideas and opinions on this forum because others didn't agree or like it then there wouldn't be much point in a forum. The purpose of a fan forum is the discussion over an artists work and the sharing of opinions.

I don't agree with your opinion over BOOH but it doesn't mean that I think you're wrong for having that opinion. Opinions are an individual thing and you're quite entitled to think what you want about the song, as is everyone else here.

I may have been over the drink-post limit last night.
My apologies for an unnecessary use of such language.

I think I've found one of those perhaps rare moments when I agree absolutely with Paul ;)

Yes, everyone is entitled to have and express opinions .. but BOOH was the song that established a musical career for Meat which despite peaks and lows has endured for decades .. Would his career have been better had they drip fed the classic songs from the original album over the years? I rather doubt it. It would have reduced Meat to one of those performers who releases albums with one great song and a load of padding, and that wouldn't be Meat in my view, nor is it likely to have established him as soundly as what they released did.

You can't rewrite history (unless you're a deluded zealot who believes the holocaust didn't take place and attempts to do it :roll:). Meat and Jim hold an amazing record of one of the best selling albums of all time .. why try to tinker with that, even if it wasn't impossible?

Perhaps Choirboys was trying to get across that Meat knows he has this success and will always have it as his legacy, but that he is realistic enough to know it won't be repeated, and that he is now happy to continue to develop and explore his art, not simply to chase sales (as long as these are robust enough to continue to allow him to record) but because he is an artist with so much to give. As someone who has followed him throughout, I am more than happy with that.

Some fans may not appreciate his later work as much as his early records .. personally I love CHSIB, HCTB and HIAH just as much as BOOH. The last caught a wave in time, was astounding in its time, and will always remain a classic. The former captured my imagination and appeal to me just as much in their time.

Caryl

I think you've misunderstood, he doesn't mean 'lies' as in 'untruths'. He said 'That way pure speculation lies', as in 'At the end of the yellow brick road, the fair city of Oz lies,' or 'That way lies danger in wait.'

It is always difficult to express oneself clearly when drunk in charge of a laptop. So, thanks for putting my point across more coherently.

Having twice been ejected from such gatherings due to having the voice of a
cement mixer I would like to remind you that I am a chairboy and not a choirboy!!

Calling me it lies basically yeah, that does cross the line.

I just took offense to being called a liar basically.

If he meant it that way he should of posted it in such a way. He just got caught up in the debate and didn't care too much on how it would sound like till I had offence to it.

Hmm I suppose my point was a little over bearing to wanting a more JimxMeat style of music. Well I still think Meat should of waited on Bat Out Of Hell but I suppose the album became too good to mess with in any degree.

I literally have no counter arugment that point was concise and well put, I just wish someone would of put it that way sooner and save me some time.

He did. He said 'that way speculation lies'. There's actually no mention of ACTUAL 'lies' in his post. He used a word spelled the same, but meaning something different.

Speculation yes, lies no.

There are two definitions of lies. One means an untruth, the other means 'to rest' or 'to exist' and in the case of the message you quoted, I believe that it meant the latter of these definitions as Samurai has already explained to you in this thread.

Paul Richardson can correct me if I'm wrong but this is an alternative wording of the sentence as it would read to me:

Let's just say you can't unpick one part of Meat's history and then rewrite everything that followed. That way pure speculation exists

From my perception, Paul Richardson was actually agreeing with your point that this was merely speculation.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

:twisted: I think you are missing the point I was trying to make.

Jim decided to be a singer because Meat lost his voice.

As a singer he released one album.
1.
Numero uno.
Less than 2 in 2 out of three.
The only good record in a bad record shop.
The Chesney Hawkes of albums (think about it :wink: ).

And then he sank without trace (as a singer).

No second album ever appeared.

So what would have happened to Meat if he'd recorded and released that material rather than the Bat album?

Sure, it would have sounded a lot better, but was the material good enough to make a good enough impression (would it sell enough copies) for the record company to think it was worth forking out the cash for the next album?

Because if Meat debuted with Bad For Good, and it had the same success rate with the same results, Meat today would be one of those music curiosities that you might find on vinyl under the novelty section of your local second hand record store.

I'm sure some folks would disagree strongly with this (and feel free to), but I think Jim's Bad For Good only ever made it onto CD because of the interest generated through the Meat Loaf/Bat connection.



Ever record exec who ever turned down Bat must cry himself to sleep every night :yep:
"Clive", the dude who said Meat was Robert Goulett and Jim didn't know anything about Rock n Roll must have taken up yoga so he could indeed follow Meat's instructions (shouted from the street) and go f*ck himself.

It doesn't matter who it turned off. It turned on one man with belief, vison, and a huge set of cahoonas.
Shout out to MR STEVE POPOVICH!!!!!! :metal:

Nobody else matters.



Read Samurai.
You weren't being called a liar :wink:

Yes .. I plead the fact that I was listening to Carols as I typed ;)

@ misterfive See my reply to chairboys? There are Carols who are people with that name and ones we sing at Christmas .. I was referring to the latter ;)

No-one has called you a liar or suggested you were lying .. One can say "That way lies paranoia" or "That way paranoia lies" .. both mean the same thing, and the latter phrasing doesn't imply that paranoia is prevaricating ;)

Caryl .. now defending Paul as well as agreeing with him. Must be Christmas, the time of miracles and virgin births! .. :lol::lol:

I thought we were discussing Meat Loaf not grammar. This conversation went "nowhere fast" so I am going to spend my time continuing this debate experience "45 seconds of ecstasy" while listening to "Midnight At The Lost And Found" cause I think that is the better waste of my time.


Note: *I like Midnight At The Lost And Found it has 4 of my favourite songs*.

We're not debating grammar .. we're talking about the fact that some words have more than one meaning. You have referred several times to being called a liar, and we've been pointing out that this was not the way the word was used, but rather as in the sense of to be or exist (I think it comes from the Latin lectus ... bed)

But you can waste your time in whatever way you choose of course ;) The rest of us were simply wasting ours in a vain attempt to explain and halt the offence you seem to have taken.

You are speaking to a man who earns a living writing eroctic tale for adults so please keep all explanations short enough that one can read it on a bubble gum comic.

That'll be why b0ll0x didn't raise your eyebrows then lol

You are addressing a woman who can spell erotic

Are you two submitting opening lines to misterfive's next novel?

That is why writers have editors.

I don't write novels I write serials but I have wrote several very trashy novella's but the majority of my work is either original western yaoi/yuri/shojo or being part of a writing team for film and television.

Would this be in English?

Its western so yes it is primarily in english.

Perhaps you could post a clip or two on here for critical analysis?
The mods have given it clearance, haven't you?

Like a clip of a show I written for? And mods?

They are watching our every move.

Why would they care if I post my work, in either case I can say some of the movies I helped write.

In screenplays I do alot of plot work when writing, I make sure the story flows from scene to scene.

Examples of my work that show off my talent for plot structure include The Hangover, Paranorman, and recently I worked on Texas Chainsaw 3D.

I was supposed to work on the Dark Knight Rises but it just didn't work out.

Bat was not done early, imo It was engineered and distributed at the time it did and the rest is history ;)

They wouldn't care as long as it was in the right part of the forum and wasn't taking a thread off topic. They would also be requiring that whatever was posted be suitable for ALL ages as we're a family forum, which is why I've had to remove your link, sorry.

:twisted: OK, last time because this is getting silly.
Are you by any chance French Canadian?
I only ask as it may be that you favour that language and English is your 2nd language and that's what's causing confussion.
Hell, if English is your second language it's a hell of a lot better than my French ;)

Trust me (and the other native Ennglish speakers who've tried to put you right on this) you were not being called a liar.

"That way speculation lies".

If the word "lies" was taken in the context of being untruthful rather than the other meaning of the word (as explained in previous posts) it would make 0% sence!


You mean like "ooh ahh"? :mrgreen:

ooh matron post of the day :shock:

:lmao:

You beat me to it you git :p :lol:

As long as we get a backhander :bleh: (that's a BRIBE BTW, nothing to do with erotica :yikes: )

Start a thread in off topic.

You may see some of us some of the time, but you'll never see all of us all of the time :bleh:
That woman who walked past you today with the pram? Yep, she was one of us.

I'd love to see a Batman film written by you and Wario :lmao:

"Ware is hee Bacaracman?"
He's lying over there"

:lol:

Second time i've been beaten to the punch on one thread :lol:

Feel free to start a thread in off topic about Mr5's (appropriate for family forum) work.
In the meantime let's get this thread a little back to topic :up:

Its alright I don't mind.