Trade site
 

Not really sure where to put this but this seemed like a good start.

Where shall I start lol....

Deb gets on soap box... there's a trade site around that just happens to list a lot of stuff that has been shared freely by a lot of people over this tour and in the lead up to it just for starters. This stuff is then traded by someone who's downloaded it. Hence they get something new in return for it. Shouldn't this new item then morally be shared back with the community that gave it or should that person just either trade it again or sell it on? ... deb gets off soap box for now..

I for one am pretty pissed of at this. being someone who spends a lot of time and money in sharing with everybody and very rarely gets anything back for it. Not thats that's what i'm after, but when I see others benefiting from mine and others hard work, time and money it pisses me off big time. Especially when I see no signs of them then sharing their new gains from our stuff with us unless we trade or pay for it.

Morally speaking you're right Deb. anyone who gets something for nothing off one of the sites out there (and I presume you mean here and TNW for example), should then at the very least offer it back to others on those communities.

(moving this thread to Feedback as I don't think it really fits in LCA!)

Yep, trading gets right on my tits. Far better just to put it out there and let everyone have it. Unfortunately a lot of people take but do not give.

I've even had people try to sell me my own stuff that I gave away for free :evil:

You can move it to where you like as long as it gets read lol.

It just pees me off that someone gains a whole lot of stuff for their Meat Loaf collection from stuff shared by others. And the only way I would get any of that stuff thats been gained by my hard work, time and money is to trade with the person who took the bloody stuff :evil:

That could mean we are heading to a new forum rule saying something like:

the copyright of each picture is owned by its poster unless stated otherwise?

Adding something like the difference between personal use and selling.

Don't get my started on pics again Ankie lol. This time i'm on about audio and video.

Take a look at the list below. This is just a few of whats out there. I'm pretty sure either myself or Jules did most of these. yet they are all up for trade. So what do me and Jules get back out of these trades then eh ;) SFA:-P

American Idol 2006
Dancing With The Stars 2006
News Years Eve 2006
Royal Variey Performance 2006
Megan Mully Show 2006
Stricly Come Dancing 2006
Today Show 2006
Anything For Love - TOTP 1993
This Morning 2006
Any Meat Will Do 2006
Jimmy Kimmel 2006

is it me or does this ring bells with me...... I have trade site out there called meatLoaf Bootlegs and I have a forum too where most people including me post free stuff online what we get. the only real stuff I trade is dvd shows, well its hard to upload full shows to the net ain't it?

I have the above listed on my site but I don't trade that, I just stae it in my collection, if you get what I am meaning by it...

Why deb, what sites are doing this, if your allowed to name.

Plus going to the photo's - you shouldn't really take photos and add to another site unless you have permission, trust me I've learnt from it ain't I?!

Lastly, what anoyed me once was, I paid on ebay for the History of meat, 1995 NYC dvd+vcd, an audicence recording of meat in miami 1994 and london 1993 was bought via a trade site. I only realised when some people told me you should never have to purchase bootlegs, thats wrong! they should be either shared or traded but never to be re-sold! BAD BAD BAD!!!

Wow, got something off my chest :-)

Unforuntely it'll get to the stage where people just have to stop sharing files, of course most of us will miss out but there's always gonna be peple out there who are out to make money regardless of how - the ultimatum will end up as share your files and be prepared for people to get them and trade them, or don't share to begin with

This for some reason reminded me of UNIX story.

It was developed by AT&T Labs and donated as a gift to research university which in terms appropriated and started selling it...

For ME - I never want to make momney of boots - I see no point in it!

Lets start with this one.

How can say that? You once tried to sell me one of my own recordings! and I'm not the only one you've tried selling things to either

Sell one of your recordings? Sorry I can not remeber that at all.... I don't sell, just trade or share for free...

No offence, but are you not confusing me with someone else?

No it isn't hard, after all most of the stuff you're trading has came from the internet.

That isn't how it reads and no I don't get it

YOURS

Yes Ross very BAD BAD BAD. So why are you offering to sell people stuff you've got from others for free?

I'm just waiting for the postman to deliver me all the stuff you've gained from trading my stuff. I'm sure theres a good few others who will be waiting as well ;)

I must be doing something very wrong here. All this doing stuff for the love of it doesn't get you know where

DO NOT try that one with me Ross

I have not sold anything to others, only trade - thats different than selling... I have other things that you can't find on the net, dvds etc....

Sorry if it all confused you - maybe I should re word it or something like: In ym collection but not for trading!

Perhaps one of the minor issues here is that when several people here have put the thought and time into making the files and uploading them ready for sharing then perhaps they shouldn't be traded at all, for free or for money, as they're not yours. I know that anything I've been sent stays with me because it's not mine to pass on.

maybe thats where I've been going wrong!
I thought trading is different thatn askig for money/selling....
Perhaps I should stop trading.......

Surely you know if you've asked someone for money or not.. :?

Trust me I do know and I have not!!!!!!! you have to believe me on this.
I don't want to name people but people I know a few who visit this site and they have asked for money as they were at one time selling their bootlegs, making copies and selling them on; even on ebay!!!

Site Closed!
 

The only way to get myself out of this mess was to close the site! I am sorry if I have offended people but I didn;t create the site to upset folk at all, thats the last thing I wanted to do.

This is what I put on the site now:

"Meat Loaf: The Bootlegs has now closed! This is becuase, a forum on the net were annoyed at the site; as it was trading video that was already avaialble on the net for free!

I was not at all selling my stuff and therefore I am unbable to go on with this site as I have not setup this site to offense or hurt anyone at all. I must do whats right and close it! I am sorry to all you that are mad and those to who visited the site!

Something that I must do!!! If you wish to email me please do so...."

MeatLoaf: The Bootlegs is now officialially closed!

Thank you Lucy. I wish others would show the same respect

Ross in saying you havent asked for money you are calling me a liar and that I AM NOT. You 100% asked me for money one time on msn when I asked you about a show you had on your old website. I asked you if I could listen to one of the songs, you said yes if I sent you something in return and then you said if I wanted the whole show I could have it for £5. I sent you something so i could see if it was my files you had and it was. so I would of techincally been paying for my own stuff.

I am not the only person you've asked for money for stuff, so you would also be calling them liars.

£5 does NOT cover p&p, not by any stretch of the imagination. Share Ross. It's actually very rewarding.

Now I have learnt is: All I get is now kept with me and only me unless other wise stated!

Ross how many sites are you going to create and then close because you offend people? you forever miss the point.

That's the point though - unless you recorded it it's not yours to pass on

Well:

Meat Loaf Unofficial closed as I have not got time to update it etc.. and thenakedwire and here do a great job at it.
MeatLoaf Bootlegs closed now as I have learn't that people take time to upload stuff and then its traded for other concerts, when it shouldn't be.... and now I see no point in doing it! Therefore what I have now won't be traded unless I get told I can do....

Those are the only 2 sites I have closed!

Oh I dunno, there's a good few bits on there I don't have. feel free to share them freely with us all, after all you got them with the stuff you downloaded from us in the first place ;)

why does it always take something like this to make you realise though?

It wasn't only my stuff I saw on there, there was also a lot of Jules, Evas and Tamaras. Not only traded by you granted, but i'm sure those that had Evas or Tamaras stuff were also asked not to share. As far as I could see the only person on that site that was sharing fairly the rest had gotten from others and were just using the stuff to improve their own collections.

Sure you name it and I will upload over time.... and share for free.... How about it? Let me know!

I really think it boils down to common sense and politeness. Neither of which I think are very difficult!

In "real life" you wouldn't walk into someone's house, take their things and pass them on, for money or not, so why is the internet different?

A daft example, when Deb posted her RAH pics on her site there were a few I wanted that included me, some at the hotel and one of me with Kasim, but despite the fact that I'm in them, and those photos only went as far as my printer and into a photo album I still asked if it was ok to use them, because at the end of the day they're not mine! It's really not hard...

Same here...my camera died right at the beginning at Wembley. I've asked people who posted pics with me if I can take them. Whatever I took is sitting in my documents for my own personal use with the permission of the owner. I don't ever remember the time when I was declined a permission to take a picture, especially my own...so I don't see why it is so difficult to ask.

Well obviously you don't know yourself,cos you tried to sell me something.I do not like getting involved in disputes,however i hate lying even more.

Well well well, this thread really doesn't belong here on this site ... but I guess we'll leave it open for discussion unless this turns into a "trade" thread, so no PM begging or vice versa!

Ross, first you want to spell-check your disclaimer and second - can I ask you to rephrase it so that it's perfectly clear that not this site & forum, but people visiting this site & forum convinced you to close your site. There's a difference, think about it! Thanks.

Thanks Michelle, I thought I was bashing my head against a brick wall alone :-)

Thanks R :-)

Totally agree

OK, that's too funny :lmao:

Pud :twisted:

Personally, I believe that all not quite legal recordings should be traded freely. As a not all too fanatical trader, I can't get behind the idea of keeping recordings for the select few. I'm in it for the music, not for the "I got something you don't have and won't be able to get either" factor. (Unless I'm interpreting the above statement incorrectly)

I have gotten quite a few recordings from the 'net, and to me, it would feel wrong to say, "no, you can't have it, as I've not personally produced them". (Doubly so if it concerns mp3s/other lossy files.) If you desperately want to keep your files from being traded, you probably should not make them available on the internet. That said, I do believe that credit should always be given where credit's due.

If anyone else wants this soapbox, go ahead. I'm had my say. ;)

I guess a lot of the not wanting things sharing or known about isn't to get one up on anyone else, but more to do with the fact that they shouldn't have been recorded in the first place...

*Crawls onto the soapbox*

I AM HUNGRY!!!

And that's all I've got to say...

yep you misinterperated it :-)

I'm not a trader of any sorts. I just share freely with anyone that wants anything I have (unless it was given to me by somebody who doesn't want it shared) It's got nothing to do with keeping stuff for a select few, but thats something else that's been gone over a zillion times in different threads on different forums that i'm not prepared to go into again. Apart from to say it's situations like this that have made people wary of sharing to openly.

Just because some people don't openly share everything they have or dont post about sharing it doesn't mean they aren't sharing it

Definitely and then theres the fact that people abuse what others share.

Also some people record shows just to get a trade afterwards. others do it as a much more personal memory of a show and have even been known to sing or chat through them :lol: hence the not wanting to share it to openly and just wanting to share it with those they know wont slag them off. obviously looking at some of the stuff thats on Ross's list, some haven't kept to the person who gave it to thems wishes.

I'll take a second turn then.

Hmmm. Somehow, I can't quite agree with that line of thought. If your reason for not trading a recording you're made (I presume) is because you believe you shouldn't have made said recording in the first place... you do the math with where I'm going.

Yeah I agree it can seem wrong not to share. And anything i've gotten from say a torrent site, I would share with anyone (Although I do feel that theres a lot of torrent stuff being shared that has gone against the seeders wishes. As in not sharing as flacs source etc, i've seen a lot of these circulating as mp3s. Other stuff is more personal either to me or the person who recorded it or what ever they did to it.

A lot of time and effort and even money goes into sharing freely.

Thats the trouble though, there's no credit given that i could see on Ross's site. And to try and sell me my own files takes the biscuit :-P

I think what Lucy meant was that people didn't want to draw attention to the fact they were out there, we've all seen how 'some' can react to them ;)

Fair enough. Never said I was the cleverest of the bunch ;)

If people didn't want to draw attention to a bootleg, then either they shouldn't have recorded it in the first place or more over they shouldn't have shared it with someone.

I'm of the belief that if one bootleg recording of a show from a tour surfaces for everyone to enjoy, then it makes no difference if there's two shows from the tour, three shows from the tour, or every show from the tour is bootlegged and out there.

I'm not a big bootleg person anyway, one or two from a tour is more than enough for me. My beef though is with people trading these shows and not wanting to share, or profitting from them.

Pud :twisted:

I know your feelings on more than one boot from a tour Pud lol.

Yeah my main gripe here is that Ross got what he has from downloading freely on forums like this or tnw. And now he has a nice collection and all he wants to do is trade it. If we'd all done that in the first place, nothing would be available for the majority.

Trading sucks

That does suck

Pud :twisted:

Bollocks

You took everything I shared and offered nothing in return.

ditto

This seems like a weird argument to me because in a way both sides are wrong. At the end of the day the large majority the 'bootlegs' and video uploads that are posted across the net do not belong to anyone here but to the artist, production and/or television company, regardless of whether it is for the people.

So it seems to me that giving out about one person's illegal activity while the other person is doing the same makes no sense, whether it is for money or not.

With that said I'm as curious and keen as the everyone else when it comes to the 'rare' things that we do not always have access to and in all honesty bootlegging is as much a black market industry as pirate dvd's.

If it were me I'd say through it all out there and just go get but then there wouldn't be any money to be made off of it and hey at the end of the day that is what it is all about.

As i say I'm no angel in this regard, i've made audio cd's from dvd's for friends of mine and have bought bootleg cd's and still trawl through youtube for that rarity.

If that's the conclusion you've come to by reading the posts, then you're missing the point completely.

It's NOT about condoning or condemning the act of making or distributing bootlegs, it IS about someone getting something for free, then offering it up only as a trade and then NOT offering that traded item in return...for FREE.

In short: taking and not giving sucks.

Pud :twisted:

Thanks Pud, that is exactly it.

Deb

Sightly OT:

I don't think so. In a perfect world, there shouldn't be money involved in the whole bootleg (i.e. unofficial recordings of live performances, studio outtakes and other otherwise unavailable music) business. Of course there is some money involved as this isn't a perfect world, but from my experience most bootleg traders aren't in it for the money.
Pirate DVDs on the other hand are illegal copies of commercially available material, which prime intent is to generate money for the seller.

So while both are illegal activities, I don't believe they are quite that similar.

Thats another point. At one time (not sure if or when it changed) but Ross DID have official stuff in his trade list. Another huge no no

I have to admit, I did have some of the official stuff in my list, only becuase I copieed the whole list from ana Excel file to the webpgae and then releaised afterwards that I had the official stuff on there, so I took it down! A Mistake that was corrected:D

I have to say that I have shared more on my gforum but not now as I closed the site - read previous posts....


I didn't just get most of my stuff from here or tnw - I got some stuff from torrent site (only 1 ot 2 concerts) and most of the others was from trades (ie: swops, not for money) with other fellow traders, also not set out there to sell their collection for money. Others in my collection - dvds mainly was bought via ebay and one other tradesite which that person knows is wrong by the way!

I can see this going on for a long time

Originally you did get your stuff from here or tnw. Once you had stuff to trade you then gained new stuff from it. Which has been my point all along.

I've also paid for stuff in the past, ebay etc. I've even had someone make me pay £10 tio recieve wwry vegas files over msn. I then shared this freely with everyone. something I haven't seen you doing.

Ross you back track on everything and say what suits at that moment.

From now on i'm just going to share with those I trust if this craps going to happen all the time. Then i'll get slagged off for keeping stuff for just a chosen few. You can't bloody win in this stupid fandom

You are right, finally I think I have clicked!!! I will begin sometime to share all I have for free, well I think most of you have my collection anyways but I will.... I thinka ll this trade, one for one concert is becoming endless and maybe I needed all this to put me in the right way.... So now on I think I'll do what you do and always have done - share freely... hows that?

It just sounds like more of what I said above, you saying what suits at the time.

Feel free to do what you want now. I'm not here to keep putting you straight on the way to behave in this community. I have 6 kids of my own that need me doing this (not in the Meat community of course) I also have them lying to me and saying somethings not true when i know 100% it is. Them I have to sort out, you I don't.

I noticed you didn't reply to Michelles (24ks) post saying you asked her for money for something as well. Where's the apology there for basically saying i was lying over saying you asked me for money for your stuff?

Ditto - and I only download stuff that's specifically been noted on here to be available to download - and I for one am very grateful to sites such as TNW and to Debs for allowing me to share - rest assured, someone out there appreciates all your hard work!

NO I didn't - I haven't ever spoken to her at all, I'm not sure if you are acciedently mixing me up with other people? A possibility? In the end, I should know whether I have asked people for maoney and I have NOT on any account done that!!! Sorry!

I just want to add I saw this on ebay and I have to say I am totally against selling of audio/video bootlegs at all... You should be mad at people like these, not me, I don't sell - when will you all accept it, please believe me....

Ross you are making me really mad now. I know 100% you asked me once for £5 for a show you had, which ironically turned out to be mine anyway. if it wasn't for the fact my hard drive died since then and I lost everything I would find the proof from my msn history. Don't make me go as far as getting that hard drive fixed and proving you're a liar here.

Nobody is mixing you up with anybody. it is NOT a possibilty! I'm not stupid and I know what happened. Theres plenty who I told about it at the time that can vouch for the fact i'm not losing my marbles here and you did do it.

I'm really done with you now. i've given you the benefit of the doubt more times than I can count, but to be calling me and Michelle lairs is the final straw.

Thank you Claire :-) didn't read this till after I posted my last few posts. It's nice to read something nice rather than be called a liar :?

My last word to say on this is:

a) I don't recall asking for £5 off you....
b) Clearly showing at the age of 16 - I must have something wrong as I am therefore losing my marbles, not yours then....

I am sorry to make you all mad at me....

Reading this I did miss something...

I missed to say thank you for people like Deb, Pud, Jules, Terry for posting freely things to share with others...I seldom listen to bootleg...but what I did listen to I appreciated. Never occured to me to take it either...

Interesting aside...I often go to the CD/DVD, etc. show in New Jersey when it's run - I am on the list for announcement where and when it runs. Now...this is 100% legit show where you can buy stuff you can never buy anywhere else...about 80% of merchandise is bootleg traded openly...:shock:

Never bought since quality is often questionable but never questioned sales of it either...hmmm...

Forgot another thing...

Deb, if you feel that it's better to share with a few rather than with many - I don't see how people can blame you...it's your business the way I see it...

Bootleg sharing/trading/selling doesnt necessarily have to be illegal. It all depends on the artist's (or whoever is in charge) attitude about recording their shows.
Tenacious D for example (just popped into my mind) clearly state that they dont have a problem with anyone recording their shows (video/audio) and sharing them, as long as it isnt sold.

Big DITTO!!!!

I've been fortunate for a couple of people to SHARE their "rarer" Meat stuff with me, it's never gone further than me and I'd never think of passing it on. I do hope that this experience doesn't stop people from genuinely sharing their stuff but would completely understand if it did......would be to the loss of genuine fans though who appreciate the music for what it is and not a means of making a profit.

You should only see what is sold at that show..............

I completely agree with you here. All the music that I have, always stay's with me, because I always appreciate the music for what it is.

Just written a whole reply and my PC crashed so applogies for this being my quickly typed, scatty version!

As far as sharing "things" is concerned I really think it's down to the person who owns them to decide who has access to them. There are people here who very kindly share everything they get for us all to enjoy, and it's greatly appreciated, but I don't believe that just because they have them then they're obliged to share them with everyone, surely that's down to personal choice? It's not as if people here advertise what they have but then refuse to share it...

I don't think it's at all wrong for someone to share something with a few chosen people rather than sharing it with everyone...another daft example, Michael (Monstro) very kindly sent me some lovely concert photos for my birthday, so is the feeling that he should share them with everyone because he chose to share them with a selected person?

This reminds me of something...oh yeah...:lmao:

Lucy, otherwise, I completely agree...it is a personal choice to share or not to share...

I did correct mt typos, I'll point out that I'm typing with a severely broken nail!

I hope so, it's the best thread in ages :lmao:

Pud :twisted:

So Sorry
 

I just wanted to say how sorry I amfor what I have said in the past posts on this topic and how sorry I am to Deb for hinting she was lying about the £5 money issue when she wasn't!

I was speaking to her on msn and she began to remind me about an issue where yes I selfishly said to her she could purchase some HOTD songs for £5 and how my mother said no I cant do that.
I didn't remeber this until she said the part about my mother and then I began to back-track and remeber something like that.

This issue I had comepletly forgotton about (happened around 2005) and I just wanted to say that I am truly sorry for how I have reacted to this topic but I would like to take the time to say that I don't remeber anything about the issue with 24k (Michelle) so please michelle please pm me and tell me why I askled money of you once as I want to know. I hate the thought of me once asking money for unofficial recordings...How stupid I was!!!!:(

From this I am feeling right now very embarrased and I hope that Deb can please forgive me or at least a little. I didn't mean in any shape or form to hurt her or anyone for that matter, thats the last thing I wanted to do. I do understand if I have thrown my trust away but I hope I haven't because Deb your a really kind person and so are the lot of you on here and I would like to still be friends if possible.

~~

Deb if you read this, please can you let me know, Sorry once again!
Ross

So two people (at least) have been accused of being liars, you're trading bootlegs for money which apparently you don't do, and not only that you tried to sell it back to the person who took the recording in the first place...I'd quit while you're ahead if I were you.

trust me - I won;t be making this mistake again, that was 2005, we are in 2007 and I haven't done anything like that at all yet and wont!

how do we know? maybe theres more stuff you...."forgot"....

Alzheimer's starts earlier and earlier :roll:

All I can say RadioMaster is: I hope your the type for letting people have second chances... Trust me, I totally forgot about that - hey it was ages ago and I haven't done any of that since.... NO WAY!!!

Thats all well and good Ross, but if I didn't rack my brains the last few days over this, you'd never of came clean.

And you say it was a long time ago and you haven't done anything like that since, well there's still the matter of Michelle, or did you forget that already since you're sorry post? Now the incident with me was a few yrs back and the one with Michelle is more recent, so it all seems very odd to me.

You also said to RJ about second chances. Ross you've had more chances than I can think of.

Oh its not me you have to apologize to. And maybe, but only maybe, this is a subject you sohuld rather take care of in private with those involved.

I get the feeling that a lot of people act at different standards when they post on the net, than when they speak to people in person. They think as it happens on the screen it's all fun, like a video game. But those people responding on this and other forums are real people, and they should be treated like they'd be treated face to face. You should know that as you met loads of them at RAH, etc. I assume you never phoned Deb or anyone else about those bootlegs, as it'd get too 'real'. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Off topic of me I know but RJ that is such a real and valid point... too many people think that what happens here doesn't count in "real life" and it does. Hiding behind their keyboard as it were...my feeling is always don't say or do something to a person here that you wouldn't dare say or do in a face to face situation

There is absolutely nothing I would say here or anywhere on the net, that I wouldn't say to someone face to face. And people who really know me can vouch for that ;) Although I agree that there are many people who do hide behind their keyboards

can I say that I am taking this seriously.... I would like to know about the incident with michelle, please say.... and I have thought about this all day Deb so it isn't just you, I kept thinking; what is she on about, me £5...why.... etc.... Don't you think I'm not upset about this becuase I am, it worries me alot as I did meet alot of you at the RAH and I don't want to break up with alot of you over this.

That would be great advice if he were ahead ;) I think the phrase "when you've dug yourself into a hole, stop digging" would be my choice.

Pud :twisted:

What's that, son? You're up shit creek? And you've lost your paddle?!? :twisted:

A banker is someone who lends you an umbrella when the sun is shining, and who asks for it back when it starts to rain :wtf:

Pud :twisted:

ok, now you've lost me lol

This threads VERY entertaining, I think Pud said it, This is the best thread on site

lol :D congrats on 3666

Thanks to Deb for the heads up, I just now read this thread. Please do not trade anything posted by me on TNW as it's already on the net for all to download. If you want to link with credit to something I've posted, fine, but do not pass it off as your own. Most everything posted by me is created by me and I do it because I believe in giving back to the community, not for personal gain. A big "your very welcome" to the ones that said thank you, T and I appreciate it. :mrgreen:

As far as trading goes, from my experience, it's better to have something decent to trade that is created by you before you tread in those waters as a lot of the stuff being traded has been around for a long time. It might be new to you but there are many around that know the origin and you just may end up in quite the pickle. :shock: As far as asking for money, what an insult to a fellow fan especially when you don't know the origin and try and sell it back to the creator. :twisted: To those that care, I don't trade anymore and haven't for ages.

I understand enthusiasm in building a personal collection, but please do it with integrity. :up:

Jules (on T's computer) :cool:

something that'd better be mentioned:
Of course, what Ross did was wrong, very, but he shouldnt be slaughtered here. From personal experience I can say that he's by far not the only one trying to sell stuff. And compared to other people's "offers", I can say that 5 pounds is rather little money.

I'm not trying to defend him here, I'm just saying let's focus on the problem itself, instead of slaughtering the one that incidently got all the attention right now.

It wasn't the £5 as much as the fact he denied it and harped on so much about I would never do that blah blah blah lol. £5 may not be much but sell something for that 100 times and it is.

But I do agree there are far worse people out there, some not to far away either. One who sold all of our stuff on ebay not so long back for £10 a time on a buy it now on ebay :twisted: sold a 100 + so made a nice little profit out of that one and i'm sure he still is making a nice little profit out of us and will carry on doing so.

Lets just hope bringing it to Ross's attention now will teach him it's not the way to behave, instead of seeing what others get away with and trying to copy them

Deb

And I want to add now, Deb it has bought it all to my attension and I know that what I have done wrong, lying etc.. is not the way to behave... You could say I've been selfish and that now I am learning, like they say; you learn something new all the time;)

So now you can go learn to use a spell checker ;)

so today you learned that lying is wrong.....congratulations

I'll try yes... that's another note to go by my pc: "Read Over and learn how to spell - I guess :-)