Should all calm down and have a cup of tea

Not really off topic. I mentioned it because I realized that it's a useful option that (hopefully) keeps me from getting into silly fights with certain people. There are some forum members (not many ;)) who repeatedly say things that bother me, and which sometimes tempt me to add fuel to the fire and make me react in a way that I later regret. That's why I actually understand why Meat Loaf often feels offended and gets angry - because I know how easily words can make you angry, regardless of whether the originator of those words intended that or if it was some innocent statement that was just taken the wrong way. What I don't understand is his overuse of cuss words and his tendency to blow things out of proportion and accuse his fans of not liking him.

And where exactly? As you know, using facebook as a forum an insult for any structured conversation...
To be 100% honest, I don't care about apologies on facebook when I even don't find them. He insulted most of the fans here, so he should apologies here.

To participate in this hateful election of the US president (and this hate is driven by the Republican Party and Fox News for the last 4 years and the differmation of the term "facts") is Meat's own fault. It is sad to see, that a singer bringing together all kind of people, such as Meat, endorses any of the canditates. I guess 99% of the artists just endorse a canditate because they agree on the surface with the canditate. In this election it is already bad to endorse one even if you don't support them 100%! And then, you as an artist, don't expect any kind of shitstorm?:shock:

I am not that much hurt from his 97% statement, but more how blindly he copies the Fox News statements about "facts". The same goes if you just listen to MSNBC. I feel so sorry for you all in the US that satire comedy shows like thedailyshow.com show me more facts than Fox News ever can or how Fox News bends facts, discredits opponents from the other or own party (for example Ron Paul).

This is why I don't want to know anything about the political views of my artists.

Ok, for one thing, I noticed in someone's post that they said Meat got angry because people were attacking his choice of endorsing Romney. (sorry, can't remember who, I'm on my phone so not going back, but might have been Paul Richardson)

We've been over this before (like many other things around here) that he was not angry because of people disagreeing with his choice (which is ok for people to do, and was being done, imo & to memory, respectfully) he even came on line and said that was not the reason, it was the voice thread that made him angry, and I can understand why. Imo, that thread was not majorly respectful.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner

As far as I can understand it was the endorsement thraed that had the quoted words that R. pointed out in them (about the endorsement performance which many disliked etc). The voice thread was a more general thread about people's preferred Meat voice era.
In what way was the latter majorly disrespectful?

R., this is your forum, so you can do with it whatever you want. You make the rules. Anyway, the fact you or one of the mods deleted my post in which I said this (among other things) amazes me:

I also said that he doesn't have to do that unless he wants to. If it's wrong to express one's hope that the stupid, tiresome, repetitive fighting stops and things go back to "normal", then I'm wrong, I guess. :shrug: I have the feeling that this will be handled like similar events before, thus things like this will happen again and again and again... This used to be a place for fans to meet, exchange ideas and have fun. It has turned into Meat's punching ball.

I give up. This is gonna be my last post - which will probably be deleted, too. I hope it won't but I guess my hope is in vain.

Maybe Meat (and some others) will regard this as a "success" - another "enemy" gone.

Well, if I was an "enemy", I would have left three years ago and never come back. I wouldn't have wasted time with participating in this discussion. I just wouldn't care about Meat Loaf and this forum. I would have gone away that day in 2009 when Meat called us "saboteurs" in a video on YouTube and started an exhausting war that lasted several days. Since then I've seen him call his own fans names on that many occasions that I've given up on counting them. Some ugly things happened behind the scenes, too. I've been patient and tolerant and always tried to be forgiving anyway - because Meat has also shown that he has a huge heart.

He invited forum members to a promo event at which they could listen to Hang Cool Teddy Bear. :up: He recently posted an awesome, very cordial message regarding two long-time fans' wedding. :-) How many artists would ever do that for their fans? Not many, I guess. But the next time I saw him say something on this forum, he was spitting venom in a way that even put some of his most loyal followers off. How can someone who is that kind be that nasty the next moment?

I don't think that Meat Loaf is a bad person, but I can't take his erratic behavior and rudeness anymore. Instead of adding something unique and informative to this place, his presence now kills interesting discussions and disrupts the community. I don't want to spend my rare spare time with the same daft arguments over and over again and I'm tired of seeing him come to this place not to communicate with us but to control what we say, insult us and tell us how much he dislikes us. As I said a couple of posts back, I don't have an issue with him getting upset but I have an issue with the way in which he gets upset. I don't like many things he said, yet I would never call him "jerk", "evil", tell him to "~~~~ himself" or "go to hell".

So this is time for me to say goodbye once and for all. I returned twice, there won't be third time. I'd like to thank the members of this forum (incl. admins and mods) for the interesting stuff I read on this board and for the fun it had to offer before every other thread descended to mud-wrestling.

Thank you, Meat. You provided brilliant entertainment, I made some great friends. I'll keep fond memories of the concerts I went to, especially Leipzig 1996 and Hamburg 2008. Will I buy another CD or go to another show - no. I'm grateful for the good times, I'll try to forget about the rather disappointing, saddening experiences of the last few years.

Farewell MLUKFC, farewell Meat. I wish you all the best.

Could someone (who actually read the thread :bleh:) please clarify this? It'd help me, at least, understand where everyone is coming from. Because I really don't think that thread, which Meat says was the main provocation for insulting so many people, warranted such a response. Why was it so horrific? All I've read so far is that "it was bad and you shouldn't have said anything!"

Obviously that's an exaggeration, but that's what the criticisms of that thread have really amounted to so far :oops: I (and clearly lots of others) don't think it deserves that judgement, but lots more disagree with that. Why was it so disrespectful? No one was bashing anything or anyone, it had a massive disclaimer at the top, and...I don't get it. I really don't. Explain it to me :shrug:

It saddens me that something that, in my opinion, was as respectful and interesting as that conversation caused Meat to say what he did, which has led to upsetting and driving so many people away. Posts like Sarge's above me shouldn't be happening. I want to believe that it's justified, and that that thread really was the problem, because then we can look at not repeating that sort of stuff and improve everything...but I just don't see it :shrug:

You know as well as I do that it's Meat's actions and words (or his 'experiment' as he apparently sees it) that have driven people away rather than the content of that thread. The idea of insulting people and calling them names to weed out the unmutuals is, in a word, revolting.

If Meat wants to limit his fanbase to the ones who are willing to listen to their fellow site members being degraded by him and who will then still stick around to kiss his ass anyway, count me out.

Meat ought to thank his lucky stars that this story hasn't been picked up outside of this website.

Meat voluntarily voiced his political opinions, made an endorsement and consequently his fans began discussing those opinions.

We buy Meat's albums and pay to see him in concert. Therefore we have observations on his singing and how it has varied over the years.

Meat's posts in response speak for themselves. Apparently it's fine and dandy for him to tell you to argue with your family until they vote for Romney, but if you have something to say in response to that, he can't hack it without resorting to a bunch of childish shouting and swearing. Stand up for your beliefs and if someone expresses an opposing view or questions on that, swear at them until they leave. Classy, Meat. Thanks for showing me what a backbone's for.

I can see the headline now:

'Veteran rock star slams fans, calls them evil, tells them to go to hell, tells them to go ~~~~ themselves, then says it was all a 'test'.

That's about the size of it, isn't it? I highly doubt many of his wider circle of fans would be impressed by that.

The more I think about this whole thing, the more disgusted I become.

I do indeed, my post wasn't worded quite right. I fixed it :oops:

No worries, didn't mean it as a criticism ;)

Bye!

(too blunt?)

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner

Nah, quite appropriate me thinks, just hope all these soap opera, long song goodbyes actually stick this time unlike the 3 day turnaround on the last one

Byesies

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I'm not sure why people have to keep posting their same view over and over .. Some have said they understand what pushed Meat to lose his temper, however regrettable that was; some find it unforgivable. We know who feels one way and who the other. I don't understand why it needs repeating ..

Rainer's posts on this thread are worth reading imo for insight into what led up to the explosion, as are his very clear instructions on what is not acceptable on the thread.

I'm just wondering how far and for how long some intend to push Rainer's patience :roll:

I've always thought that if people are going to leave then they should just go and not make such a big song and a dance about it but of course that is only my opinion. ;)

Since you're after a response though I'll just say bye then.

Because some people find elements of the subject at hand worth further thought, and because some people asked questions that deserved a response. Personally I don't think that those kind of posts are the ones in this thread that are most offensive or worthy of criticism.

Don't worry, the way things are going it will be a lot quieter here soon enough.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing... :roll:

Nor do I. However, I really don't think much is served by continuously speculating. Only Meat could perhaps say with accuracy what culminated in him losing his temper. I have a lot of respect for your intellect Michael, and have to believe you can see that the thread he referred to was perhaps more the tip of an iceberg. As I said, Rainer's posts are worthy of consideration by those who haven't considered this.

As Lucy said a good while ago .. he messed up, but who of us hasn't? Personally I think it's time to either accept that and move on, forgiving or not depending on your hilltop; or to make a decision as to whether you can still be a fan or not, and go with that.

Meanwhile, having responded to your perfectly acceptable post, I shall ignore attempts from any others to point-score, flame and provoke. They are obvious however cleverly the coats they wear are stitched

[Edit]
Offensive content removed.
[/Edit]

Personally, at least as far as I'm aware, I've never willfully offended a large group of people - and if I'd caused the level of upset, sadness and hard feeling that Meat has, I'd damn well apologise.

To deliberately set out to upset and insult people could be put down to temper and a lack of self restraint. To leave those people to be upset and to fail to apologise shows genuine cruelty, a lack of compassion and likely leaves those people feeling that was your intent all along.

Agreed with the rest of your post though.

Robgomm: what you just did is really dis respectful (talking about respect on this forum)

Lol, I love drama on internet forums.

People make it sound like coming to a message board is actually worth a shit.

At best it's a mindless distraction. Get over yourself.

@ Lorenzoduke Yes, the scale is clearly different, I agree, because we're in different positions. I guess it comes down finally to how forgiving each of us is, but I agree with Rainer .. with all that's been said, and the time that has passed, I honestly think what you seek is unlikely to happen. I also think that the longer angry feelings on the part of people here continue to be expressed (however justified their anger and hurt might be) the less likely it will happen in response soon. Given time, I would hope to see Meat return, perhaps even say something in response .. but while this rages on? I really doubt it. We can make it easier or more hard ..

Caryl

If conversation, exchange of ideas and opinions has no value to you, then yes, that is truly mindless.

If Meat had wanted an apology to be well-taken and to be easy for himself, he would have offered one soon after his initial comments.

If he chooses to apologise I'd like to think it will be because he realises he was out of line and has caused a lot of upset and offense.

I don't think it's the responsibility of the people he offended to make things easier for him. He is, after all, the one who is seemingly content to greatly upset people, tell them to go to hell, tell them to go ~~~~ themselves, and then leave.

Yes, I'd find it hard to walk back into that room too - and I don't see why it shouldn't be either. Apologising always takes character and humility. I don't think anyone is trying to deliberately make it harder, however. In fact, I'd guess that most people have given up on the idea of any kind of apology being made and I'm inclined to feel the same. Those who have been hurt, he has left to be hurt. That's what disappoints me, personally.

Your kidding right?

I was being a sarcastic prick. It was a little closer to outright trolling than I intended, but yes, I was kidding.

You're absolutely right. Funnily enough I was about to remove that post as I realised it was uncalled for. I received a fully deserved infraction for going too far so I have been fairly punished. Apologies to all offended.

Yes, it was the voice thread.

No, those words were picked from review threads, not the endorsement thread. In a nutshell: Top left corner says "Meat Loaf". Another thread about his voice, his unique selling point, which could be understood as "His voice was way better 20 years ago". Do you get the picture?

Like so often, you are making an assumption. That's not a fact. And you're wrong.

Let me quote on of my recent posts:This is what happened. Apparently your post was reported so often that it was removed from public view. It's still waiting for approvel in the moderation queue.

Yeah, but it was. :twisted:

Okay, seriously then, in my opinion I liked it more than I do his current vocals - but if it's a sensitive issue then I guess there should be an official 'no discussing Meat Loaf's Voice' thread that's locked from the first post, or you could even put it in the rules if you like.

But it's worth keeping in mind that for every area that gets banned from discussion, this 'discussion forum' becomes more of a temple to worship at.

We could call it a Fan Club

you had me there

We could call it an oppressive regime if you like. I'm not saying that it IS one, but if all you want to do is non-objectively praise and stamp out opinions that do not match up to yours, then maybe the boards shouldn't exist at all, and MLUKFC should become a news page instead :-P

Maybe everyone could pay heed to Rainer's guidance and advice. He does not run this forum oppressively, far from it imo, but draws a few lines in the sand for the reasons he's given

:twisted: But ownership gives you certain rights, no?
R put this place together. He chose his team, and with our consultation (which, being a remarkably rational human being, I hardly think he needs) makes the rules for the place.

Let's get it straight, this place is open to the public free of charge, but if R decided tomorrow that you could only log into this place if you were wearing a pair of yellow fishing waders and one of those caps that holds a couple of cans of beer, he would be well within his right to do that.

The rules of the forum are in place to promote a forum where fans can discuss Meat's work and projects in an atmosphere that is respectful to Meat, to the forum staff, and to each other.
If certain content is felt to be detrimental to a thread being respectful or on topic, it's the privilege of the web master to act as they think best.

If you want a forum where you can say exactly what you want exactly when you want to say it, there's a whole lotta web out there for you to build one.



Hey, check this out, I wrote a poem for ya, it goes something like this :mrgreen:

For every forum member
a different point of view
You think that I should ban some
Some think I should ban you :bleh:

She thinks that you're much too positive
He thinks you show to much doubt
But it's the mods who always get ~~~~~~ed
When Meat begins to shout :bicker:

So have a little patience
With others on this forum
Learn to respect each other
And show some goddam decorum :p


Everybody has their own idea of what should be acceptable on this forum :wink:


As R said, we've been looking for that middle ground for the last 10 years.
I thought I found it once, but apparently it was Belgium :bleh:

Where Meat is concerned, I think it's always worth remembering that everything said on the forum is personal to him.
To use a metephore i've used before, imagine a baker looking online and finding a forum dedicated to scrutinizing every loaf he's ever made?
How would you react to the news the rolls you baked on Thursday were shite?





It's not exactly unprecedented to have Meat lose his rag on the forum, but i'll be ~~~~~~ed if it's getting easier.
(Note on this subject, Meat last said something on this thread on page 4/5, we're now on page 18 ).


Could it be because the forum actually means something to them? :bleh:
Some folks have been comming here a lot of years. They feel attached. It's natural that when somebody decides to leave it's an emotional time for them. I, for one, have no problem with people posting their goodbyes if they so choose. And should they come back I never greet they with messages like "oh you're back, I thought you'd left :roll: ".


Tell that to the two staff members (me and Andy) who met their wives through the fan community, another staff member who has a beautiful baby girl with another of our members, and other such relationships that have sprung from mlukfc :wink:

This is a community, and IMHO it's certainly worth much more than a shit. :yep:

I just spit out my coffee laughing with that poem. Job well done!:D

:twisted: Thank you, I do my best :mrgreen:

One thing I forgot to post about...........

The subject of Meat's apology.
I'm afraid i've got to again agree with R on this.
If it were coming, I think it would have been here by now.

I know Meat posted an apology on facebook, but he said nothing on facebook (that I saw) that was anywhere near as abusive what he posted here.
So, with that in mind, perhaps (i'm theorising here folks) Meat is a little embarrased to visit the forum right now because of his outburst?
If i'd have said what Meat has said, I know i'd be embarrased by my actions.

I'd have liked to see him apologise to the members here because I know how many feelings were hurt here, and I think it would have gone a long way to winning back peoples respect, but i've seen his facebook page, and I believe him to be sincerley sorry for his actions.

We can either take his facebook apology for what it is, or we can hold the fact he didn't post it here against him.

Me? I'll take the apology.

According to the rules of the forum, we're not allowed to bring issues posted on another site back here, which is fair, IMO. For the same reason, however, I don't think an apology on Facebook is acceptable for comments that were made here- sorry. Besides, some people here might not use Facebook.

I can understand if Meat is embarrassed, but that's no excuse not to apologize, IMO. I think he would have earned many people's respect if he had done so.

As someone said previously, how would Meat feel if this incident were made known to the general public? The cynic in me thinks that maybe he apologized on Facebook because it's much more "public" than this place. If Meat truly considers the people on this site his "friends", then all the more reason he should say something here.

Not sure I agree with this theory, Mouse. If Meat felt that bad about what he'd said, I think he would have been back here to apologise by now. Personally, going by the number of times he has lost his temper on here in recent times, I get the impression that he is just totally fed up with this place. It's a shame, considering that (imo) the 97% represents the positive fans, not the negative ones. Having said this, I hope that it is you who are right and me who is wrong!

:twisted: An interesting point.
I know we don't allow arguments to be brought here from other sites, but an apology, something that might start to heal some wounds, that's not a bad thing.


I completley respect and understand your position on this. :up:
Enough to be sympathetic to your point of view.

What I will say is that I believe what it is for every fan to decide for his/her self what is acceptable concerning Meat's apology.
I'm certainly not going to tell anybody to "get over it".

It was here that Meat vented with the most abusive terms, and if you feel that he should apologise here, I feel you are fully justified in expecting that.

If you choose not to forgive him until he does, that is also your choice, and I respect that.

Weather you get that is another matter.

For me, personally, I see that he's sorry, I believe it to be heartfelt, so I just want to get over this horrid and distastful incident and break on through to the other side.



Agreed 100% :up:


I imagine he'd feel pretty damn ashamed.
Facebook might be more public, but I feel that Meat is more himself here. On facebook it's more statements than anything else. Here he talks rather than makes statements (for better or worse).
That being the case, a formal apology is what i'd expect to see on Meat's facebook page.
Here, I don't know. I've already guessed that it's because he feels so bad over what happened he's keeping away for the moment.
He never said anything on facebook like the things he said here so it's not so embarrasing for him to go to.

But again, that's just a theory :shrug:

:twisted: You might well be right Lisa.
He might have decided to leave the forum as more trouble than it's worth.

Unless Meat himself tells us why he hasn't been here, we have no idea why he hasn't visited the forum or posted an apology here.

What i've said is what I believe may be the case.
It's anyones guess.

I'll take the apology when he has the balls to make one to the people he was most offensive to.

Meat didn't just make a general point about dissenters on Facebook, he made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here - later passed off as some sort of bizarre experiment (in one of the more colourful examples of backpedalling that I've seen this side of UK politics).

Your theory that he's too embarrassed to show his face here basically makes the point that he's a coward. I'd like to think otherwise, but I've yet to be proven right and you've yet to be proven wrong.

Well it would be a hell of an ironic thing for him to make that decision immediately after telling 97% of the membership to go ~~~~ itself.

[QUOTE=lorenzoduke;580862]
Meat .... made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here [QUOTE]

That's your assumption Michael. You're entitled to make one, but my take would be very different, as I believe I've explained early on, and won't repeat it again because of what that would provoke. So I disagree.

I'd agree this seemed to be the case, over something he regretted imo.

I can't agree with your final comments. I judge a man on all I know rather than one incident.

Caryl

[QUOTE=CarylB;580863][QUOTE=lorenzoduke;580862]
Meat .... made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here I would have thought that Meat came here specifically to make that post was beyond debate. Perhaps I misunderstand what you're getting at there?

I judge a man on his ability to hold his hands up and accept responsibility for his actions rather than trying to gloss over them with blatant B.S. that only causes more offense. That, as the saying goes, is adding insult to injury.

When I think of the amount of times I and many others here have stood up for Meat, rallied around him (the lambasting he took in Australia strikes me as a relevant and recent example) and been as supportive as anyone could expect a fanbase to be....to my mind, he's treating us the way the Australian press treat him. Belligerent, abusive, unrepentant and full of unwarranted bile and nastiness. Refusing to see the good and acting with a petty vendetta.

People here have had their criticisms of Meat - perhaps to excess at times, but its only because music, singing etc. is subjective and everyone has their own idea of Meat's strengths and weaknesses as a performer, and only consider these things to such a degree because they maybe only at one time or another, or perhaps always, have loved his work.

What I have never seen here is anyone be as vicious or deliberately hurtful to Meat or any other member as he was in this thread. If he doesn't feel sufficient remorse to take 5 minutes to apologise, he's not the guy I've thought he was all these years. Admittedly, he never asked to be anyone's hero, and I've learnt a lesson about having one.

If there's an apology, we move on.
If there's no apology, we move on.

End result, we move on.

My support has always been given unconditionally, and like my understanding and forgiveness, still is.

I agree.

Support that's given unconditionally gives people a free-pass on any kind of behaviour and no reason to reconsider ones actions.

I agree though, we move on, I've said all I have to say and appreciate anyone who let me bend their ear.

I don't use Facebook, I use this site. If you offended people on one site and apologized on another site... I don't get that.

[QUOTE=lorenzoduke;580864][QUOTE=CarylB;580863] :cheers:

Well, this whole thing has left me feeling confused! I first became a fan of Meat when I was 17 years old (27 years ago). He has been a big part of my life ever since. I have always loved the man, as well as the music. My Facebook page is more about Meat than it is about anything else. I get a lot of stick from friends and family, who accuse me of being 'obsessed' with the man (which, I hasten to add, I am not!) If anyone ever has a bad word to say about him, I am right back at them in his defense. I am always singing his praises, telling people what a great guy he is. I have bought every CD and DVD. I have been to at least one show on every tour and I have queued for hours at a CD signing.

One thing that I have never done is have a M&G, because I have never been able to justify spending that kind of money for the privilege. Since Meat has informed us that next year will be the last UK tour, I was hoping to finally have my M&G, as it will be the last chance I get (although I still can't really afford it!).

Now I don't know what to do because, like so many others here, I am feeling somewhat disillusioned. After some of the things that Meat has said on here, I find myself questioning if the man who I have adored for the last 27 years is the person who I thought he was.

Of course I understand that he is human, just like everyone else. We are all guilty of losing our temper at times and saying things in the heat of the moment, which we later regret. But it's the fact that Meat has not come back here and apologised that I just cannot understand.

I also appreciate that this has probably been brewing for quite some time. I read most of the posts on here and I see a handful of people who (to me) seem intent on stirring things up and who's posts always seem to highlight the negative. I understand why Meat gets hurt by this. But, these people are in the minority. The majority of the people here are in Meat's corner. His last comments pretty much tarred us all with the same brush and, to me, that was unfair and uncalled for.

Not necessarily. You can still convey that you are upset by something, while supporting someone. Usually though, that is done in the background, not everyone sees it.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner

Doctor: "Meat, I need you to rest and do absolutely nothing for a week following your op. Got it?"

Meat: " Oh Doctor. Thank you very very much. Thank you."

I will probably catch stick for this, but really do not care. Years ago pre-internet, I had communication via letters (snail mail) with someone who worked for Meat. Their name appears in the credits of one of his videos. When they lost their job they wrote me a pretty long letter telling me what they termed as the truth. I chalked it up to someone who had lost their job and was upset, although they were very calm and matter-of-fact about it. Telling me this pre-internet was not going to hurt Meat in any way. I say all this to get back to the topic everything said in that letter has a lot more credence based off of many of Meat's posts.

I visit here periodically but post rarely! I always have been and remain a huge Meat fan but, as with so many of you, was disappointed to read what Meat wrote here! I believe there is time to cool down before posting something in anger but that's just me and that's what I do.. too many harsh words are written in the heat of the moment! However for me it's time to forgive and forget and realise that in the scheme of things this is really nothing big! I haven't read every single post because I haven't had time so this may be a simplistic view of what's gone on here but it's my view... not to inflame... not to justify... just to say what's done is done... it's REALLY REALLY REALLY time to move on... or for me at least! :-D

Great post.

I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)

Yes :-) For me it means it's not conditional on the person you support having to do everything you might hope, want or expect, or meeting standards you set. Nor as you say, does it mean there's an expectation that the other person's actions will be geared to it. And as Mel said, conveying you are upset by something is generally done in the background, not publicly.

Caryl

ef all this crap
 

I live in Philadelphia PA USA land that I love... Today our football hometeam, the Eagles... lost to Dallas Cowboys... and Meat Loaf is on FB ... "hmmm" ing about it... I take this as a snigger and a slap ... and nearly all I have let in life is my football team... AND football... to enjoy and our team's not doing well... and I need a snigger ??? ... ummm... NO !!! ....

Carry on with whatever y'all are still bashing him about... gawd ...

Personally I think its these people that we do support unconditionally that often feel he worst about their actions when they do the wrong thing.

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So, to take some completely separate examples, you don't think that the partners, friends and family of an alcoholic/drug addict giving unconditional support would make that person less likely to feel the need to change if they didn't face any consequences for their behaviour?

You don't think that in the cases of abusive relationships, if a partner tolerates their abuse and continues to be supportive, it will continue?

And to bring us back to Earth, you don't think if you continue to offer unconditional support to someone who talks to you/your fellow board members like they're a piece of crap on his shoe, that he'll likely do it again?


'"Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that!'

So you think that someone who tells a group of people to go to hell and go ~~~~ themselves doesn't care about what reaction he gets?

If you remember Meat even basically said he was waiting to see what reaction he would get, so that theory falls down a bit flat.

Unconditional support sounds a lot like blind faith to me. 'Treat me like crap again and again and I'll still smile and tell you how wonderful you are'.

No thanks, that's not for me.

I'll tell you now, I am certainly not blind. That's not for you? That's fine. Whatever. Please, do continue with the circles.

It's like apples and oranges those examples....

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I think my feelings on Meat are now what they pretty much should be. As a consumer who buys a product because he likes it. Sad to boil it down to this, but it is what it is. However since he has directly told us not to buy his stuff now, I don't even know if that still applies.

My final thoughts on this topic.

More than ever, on this board, we've been able to continue a heated argument/discussion with eachother and Meat Loaf. And boy did we. But did it bring us something new?

For starters we have seen what the majority of this place always knew. There are people who will defend Meat Loaf unconditionately, we have people who will argue Meat loaf unconditionately, we have people that are in the middle. So there nothing much changed. Although I've seen some people move a bit more to the middle and some people who moved a little away from the middle. At least that's been a small change.

Then we have Meat Loaf himself. We all know that Meat can get angry/upset. It isn't the first time he did so. It's a contrast to the Meat Loaf we know from M&G, concerts and TV. That is a caring, suporting man with a big Heart. And to me both representations show the real Meat Loaf.

People who know me personally know that I'm carring and loving but like so many others I can get pretty mad or pissed off. It's a human thing. So denying Meat has two sides also is b*llshit. He has and we've seen it.

Which brings us to this topic. Meat's last outburst. Although I don't mind an outburst by any of us (Meat included) I thought this was exceptional. In the very first post Meat exploded like never before and said things that shocked a huge deal of people over here. Me included.

The subject of this topic consists two things. The endorsement and the endless discussion on Meat's vocal quality. And although a big part of the discussion mentioned politics it seemed to me Meat's outburst was for a larger part on the voice thing. A topic that (imo) wasn't rude but maybe a bit too confronting (especially for Meat Loaf at the time).

Being a fan of someone who makes a living out of singing I don't think it's that odd we discuss such matters. Question is, are we too negative on Meat Loaf's performances? Some of you -who still read my posts- will say YES! Absolutely! and others will disagree. I had a small discussion with R. in this thread and he tried to explain Meat's post by saying we've been too negative for too long (7 years, R. said). From my stand of view I disagree, as I told R.

I think this place has a huge diverse fanbase and I've seen a load of people who are only positive about anything Meat Loaf does. Including his voice. On the other hand I see people who disagre and find that Meat some times performe a lot better than other times. Or think Meat performance was worse than they are used to. And they also have their voices heard.

R. used key words to show how negative some of the people here have been. Then again I can make a same statement with all the loving remarks. Personally I think it's very balanced. So there is a next question.

As this is a fanboard, aren't we obligied to the artist to outshine the positive and keep the negative to a maximum low?

A fair question that will also get different answers and views. But one of which Meat's opinion is very clear. He stated it dozens of times that he doesn't feel the love here that a fanboard should give. Personally I dismissed this by saying that Meat focusses on the negative posts and hardly answers the positive ones. But isn't that the easy way out? Shouldn't this, of any place, be a safe haven for Meat? and is it?

Well I can answer that last question easily. No this isn't a safe haven. There are too many people who care for their honest opinion instead of a suportive opinion. Me included. That doesn't mean that I am right. But it also doesn't mean that I am wrong either, For me it means the boundries are too gray.

If R. wants this to be Meat's safe haven he can change the house rules. It's R.'s place and we are guests but at the moment the house rules allow a fair discussion which can lead to critical remarks towards the artist. Within the rules of MLUKFC the people who have their voices heard in both positive and critical ways, are being allowed to do so. And Meat Loaf knows he can expect two views. Again I'm not saying what is the best solution but according to current house rules this is what to be expected if a fan base is so diverse.

BTW I understand how difficult this must be for R. I don't think he wants to have an addoration board and I guess he just hopes that the fans who come here are more suportive to Meat -the singer, actor and person- as they are on some occasions. R. situation is tough because either way he will lose the charactirzation of this forum. To be honest I think it's impossible to achieve a safe haven if you allow free speech. And the fans here are very vocal so I doubt this board will ease down on Meat Loaf the way some of the people here hope for. It's the bitter reality.

All this said, do I understand Meat Loaf's outbursts? YES. Although, as I stated somewhere in this thopic before, I would come here with a different view and thought as Meat Loaf does. But still I understand his emotions very well. Will it change? Unless R. changes the rules, NO. And we all know in our Hearts it won't.

That brings me close to my conclusion of this very long post: Meat's latest outburst and the apologies.

I think that Meat's words to his fans here are way out of line. I understand anger but this was written in an act of rage. That is how I see it. And Meat managed to hurt some of his loyal fans with those words. Meat crossed a border to a fair amount of people. And we've seen that in some replies by people, including mods, who were absolutely shocked by the hatred in those words.

But I said that these words were likely to be written in an act of rage. And people, any people lose sense of reality during a moment like that. I was more bothered by the excuse Meat Loaf offered first. It was all an act to filter out the real fans from the phoneys. I never bought that story. And many here also didn't.

Of course Meat hasn't been back but wrote a great excuse message on his FB page. It seems to me that this was a well meant excuse and he truely feels bad about the harsh things he said. I believe that excuse and I accept that excuse. And I even think Meat apologized for what he said on here.

Unfortunately Meat never posted his apologie here. I really think it would have meant a lot for some people who were shocked. It's guessing why Meat hasn't done so and I hope he will for at least the M&G and 97% remark. However with the long and honest excuse on FB I can live. So for me the matter is over.

Which results in my view on this topic. People know me to be the first to act in an argument and say my beliefs. I don't back down and I'm not the person to be easily intimidated by others. I stand by what I say.

Well in this topic, even I think all is said. Although I still see good argument, my feeling is the topic is dragging now and we come up with subjects to keep it going. My personal view is that we can leave it as it is. Matters will never be resolved in the way all parties hope and basically some of us here are just waiting if Meat Loaf is going to say something more about it. Deep in ourselves we all know that won't happen. Even if Meat is thinking about making an apologie here, he will do so in a new topic. So for me the debate topic is done. And for once I won't hold it again anyone if this gets locked. Which, coming from me, really says a lot.

In the end I have seen heated, well argumented and less reasonable posts in here. And thanks to the moderators on this board we've seen it for a long time now. I respect that a lot.

So I just want to thank the people who moderated this hot flaming topic. Especially FlyingMouse who, in my opinion, did an incredible job on this thread. People had the oportunity to have their say and the topic (maybe dragging in the end) never got a real chance to derail.

Yest the subject was sensitive and confronting, but it felt honest. And FlyingMouse and co, thank you for giving us all a chance to participate in that. I appreciate the oportunity to speak my mind a lot.

To R. I really hope you find a middle way to make this the board you invisioned. It won't be easy (if not impossible) to do so. But I thank you for giving Meat and us, the other guests a house where we can come together.

I will continue this board outside this topic. We have a new CD a new concert tour and a US release of the current DVD coming out. Meat is having surgery. So there is a lot to talk about folks ;)

Brilliant post :pray:

I think that's a very fair post Adje. To me this stood out:

To me the disproportional reaction was because of the weight of many things Meat had on his shoulders at the time, from the fallout following his endorsement to the worry about what impact the storm would have on his ability to deliver the last shows of the tour, and the disappointment if they had to be cancelled. I suspect the prospect of the surgery he has to face must have been like a spectre behind his shoulders for some time too. Most of this not down to us, but I think friends understand that. I do.

You said also that we all know that Meat can get angry/upset, and that when he does it's in stark contrast to the man we know from M&G, concerts and TV. Yes, he is a caring, kind, and usually gracious man with a big heart. You said both representations are of the real man. I agree; I have just found the latter has outweighed the former by a huge margin for many, many years. That's why although I don't condone what he posted, I understood something of the cause, didn't take it personally, forgave, and would agree it's time to put it behind us.

Caryl

For once, I may have found something to agree with you on Adje...

I'm quite happy for a lock on this too, and leave it at that.

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I think deep down meat knows 1987 - 1993 voice was just sooo good, he may feel comfortable being compared to that and thats what drove him :shrug:

the guys only human

I was making a point, as I'm certain you are well aware, that unconditional support isn't always in a person's best interest. That sometimes losing someone's support is a way of realising that the way they have treated someone is unacceptable and has gone too far.

I wasn't comparing what Meat Loaf did to the other things. That was also made clear in my post.

His willingness to wear his heart on his sleeve is a big part of what many love/loved about him, I believe. I also believe that had an apology being made, those who have left or had their feelings hurt would have accepted it and this forum wouldn't have lost some great members.

Yes human. But can't he stay HUMBLE? I mean, come on!! Not ONE SINGLE negative comment about his voice on the VOICE thread! Just people comparing his voice CHANGES during his career. Go to expectingrain, the Bob Dylan site.OK not a "fan club", but a site dedicated to fans on the internet. Dylan had how many voices during his career? People talk about that. People prefer 60s voice, other 90s voice, some hate 2000s voice, some think it's more like tom waits and prefer it and so on..... It's a conversation topic, a debate about something beautiful, something essential at least to me: music. If ML doesn't like us talking about his voice, if this is such a critical topic for him , ok be it fine, but why come here and insult his fans? Are artists with a capital A supposed to do that? THAT is a question, and I hope it gets people thinking about it. Why did he send me a PM of insults when I said that I thought his voice was lower based from a youtube. OK you can disagree with me, sayin'you can't base your argument from a youtube, the board tape sounds fine and so on. But why attack with insults (jerk, fxxxx off and so on) when the topics are not made to insult the man? Saying that to me, I spent half of my life listening to that guy on a weekly basis, even had a ML Museum at my home when i was a teenager!!
Even on a fan forum I HOPE we can still make some objective, sometimes critical comments, or are we in a Teletubies bad trip here?

Also then why go to interviews and tell the world that people insult other people for free on the internet, and then go on and do the same? I'm not sure MLs attitude combines well with humility. Sad for a 65 year old guy.

Adje, an excellent post.

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Where's my smiley? :D Can a mod please add this? :D I think its apt and I'm on my phone :facepalm: :D:D:D:D:D:D

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

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Smiley mod lol

I can't see, did you add the facepalm smiley? That's the one I was after ;)

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razorball, Sorry , " But he can't stay HUMBLE" is not opinion , you are now making up Facts. Because I get angry has nothing to do if I am humble or not.
Everyone who just came off the road with me will tell you so. Every one I come across will tell you so . I can't believe I have to defend this statement , If you were around me for one day and watched what I do and how I deal with everyone I come into contact with you would have never made that statement. I came back to give everyone on this site an apology only to have this thrown in my face. Oh well , it only proves my point..
there are people that come to this site just to be ugly. You are talking out the side of your face . What you have written is a blatant lie. You obviously have know idea who I am or how I think.
------------------------------------YOU NEED TO KEEP READING--------------
Now, I don't know what to say now , except for all here that truly support me and have supported me through the Years I am truly sorry for my outburst. I was having a really bad weekend and I came here because I felt I was coming to a safe place. I was sure that was a safe place . The thread on my Voice pushed me over the edge, Knowing how hard I've worked over the last 5 years , on Pitch , With John on timing, John will come in somedays , Paul on others and Justin as well and listen to the last show we did, to help me make corrections. But a song Like Living on the Outside , the verses have no Time. I lost my Voice in 1980 and again in the end of 1994 not like in "80 ... it, I guess is a sensitive issue for me ( you think) and to see a thread and for everyone to be writing maybe it wasn't negative but that is how it felt at that moment and I couldn't believe a whole thread had been dedicated to the subject. I have a temper but it really doesn't appear that often. (Gary did take my paints) . It did that day and I am sorry , please except my apology. If you find you can't I understand , when I get that angry I go straight for the jugular it is a very ugly side of me that I don't like at all . In the last 45 years I have worked very hard for that side never to appear. I am human and not perfect ,say that twice, To all I am truly SORRY !! On side note I am always HUMBLE !! I KNOW VERY WELL WHY I AM HERE !!
ALWAYS,
MEAT

I don't know what to say either. Meat *IS* humble, I'll vouch for that.

I haven't understood all along why, when it's obvious entire threads about Meat's voice have bothered him from the start, people can't take that at face value and ease up on it.

I have said in this thread that I don't feel he needed to apologize, but he has, so let's try to live up to it.

Why am I not addressing my post to Meat? Because he probably knows how I feel already, it's just some on here that don't.

-Kathy

Not needed for me Meat. We're fine, always have been, but I hope it will be appreciated by everyone here. Never seen you lacking humility, ever. Seen you hurt often. Big man, big heart .. never a big ego. You should feel safe here. You should be amongst friends.

Caryl

http://www.mlponline.net/attachments/ddd-gif.1386/

This was a thing of beauty :up:

No one here hates you Meat, or wants to see you hurt or upset or anything :shrug: We're all fans, that's why we post. Some of us (me included, I had a post or two in the voice thread) may benefit from realising our posts may be a little confronting :oops: You gotta know*, though, that the discussion here isn't done with the intention of bringing you down. That'd defeat the purpose of anyone coming here at all.

Thank you for this, appreciate the apology :)

*read this like the final few lines from MSO For Crying Out Loud (GOD you gotta know!) :D

Thanks, Meat. :-)

Good luck with your surgery.

In my honest to God opinion, Meat did not have to apologize here tonight. He is a very humble individual with a lot of heart. All my love Meat, you have my full support... Can we please move on now?

We all have different opinions. That's the beauty of MLUKFC.

Took the words......you know the rest ;)

He he he, that made me giggle out loud a bit :)

I won't thank you for the apology, because I never felt I needed one, but thanks for stopping by Meat.

We love ya

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Thank you Meat, you truly do have a big heart. IMHO you didn't owe anyone an apology,
and you know you will always have my full support and love no matter what.

Having said that, I hope that others here can accept it, learn something from it, and we can move on.

@Mel : I have to admit I giggled at that too !

I'm going to turn into a pumpkin if I don't get to bed! Goodnight all, and thanks Meat :) and I hope things will be better now!

Love you MEATY. keep on keepin on, as my momma use to always say!

Really good to get up this morning and read that post, really good :up:

Likewise.

Indeed. What an amazing & lovely post.

A placeholder, that's all.

In case you missed this, see above. And I have added some posts that belong here but have been posted elsewhere while this thread was closed. Perfect way to conclude this thread.