Patti

[greg]

I was speaking with Steve steinman last week and says Patti has now retired

[nightinr]

I wonder what she does now?

[letsgotoofar]

For a while, she was talking about going into mental health, maybe being a therapist. I don't know if she still has the time, patience, or inclination, but I think the patients would at least never have a dull moment trying to get themselves on the right track with her help.

[ThatWriterGuy]

I can reliably inform you that Steve Steinman is full of shit.

[nightinr]

Do you have any news WriterGuy? Would be great to launch a new Kitchen Sink series...

[allrevvedup]

I can reliably inform you that Steve Steinman is full of shit.

I'd have thought whatever she is doing at the moment, retiring in your early 60s may be nigh on impossible in the current financial climate!

Either way, I hope she's doing ok. She's been great with me in any social media interaction I've had with her.

As for Steve Steinman, I am occasionally tempted to check out his show but then I see the price of the tickets and the temptation fades.

[Evil One]

I can reliably inform you that Steve Steinman is full of shit.I thought this was common knowledge years ago

[nightinr]

So we still don't know what Patti is upto?

[ThatWriterGuy]

Do you have any news WriterGuy? Would be great to launch a new Kitchen Sink series...


Nothing I can tell you in terms of music. Played a handful of international gigs. Otherwise it's been full on family for the past 6 years. We should respect Patti's wishes of privacy in that respect.

There's a project that's been ticking away in the background -- a good one -- but I can't tell you anything about it at this stage. Given the state of the world, and personal circumstances (family), she just hasn't felt like making music. I don't blame her, to be honest.

RE Kitchen Sink. I think it served its purpose. We only started that to exorcise some demons. I think it achieved its goal (especially since, not even halfway through the story -- barely getting started, in fact -- we decided to shelve the remaining episodes as a page turned, Meat passed away, and it just felt like the right thing to do).

Maybe it'll be back in some other form one day.

Who knows :cool:

[AndrewG]

I can reliably inform you that Steve Steinman is full of shit.

Maybe they tried to get Patti to do some dates like they did with Lorraine Crosby right?
She probably declined (or did not respond - which is more likely I bet) and they took that as a "retired" or whatever.

If she ain't in the Paul Crook band she's definitely not going to be in any lesser official thing.

I enjoyed the few shows of Steve Steinman I saw but somehow it feels like a long time ago (think it was 16-17 years ago?), even though watching Meat for the last time is pretty much 13 years ago already too. That whole period between 2004-2014 seemed like an entire lifetime somehow.
There was at least 1 show to look forward to almost every year, truly strange!
No idea why I bothered with the tribute stuff so much when the genuine thing was around almost every year, I guess one gets in a habit of things...

So many shows, so much internet drama. :D
I remember people complaining at the time over ticket prices (£60ish?). They have tripled / quadrupled since then it seems!
Springsteen last year was £180 for a side block seat. Great shows but the political ranting is pathetic at those prices, totally NOT professional.
I can't imagine a British rock star going over to the USA and ranting about Keir Starmer every night. Who knows, maybe it is happening.

Still glad Patti was included in the final European arena touring dates with Meat in 2013,
and I always see it as positive inspiration that she at least tried to do that UK tour the following year.

I really wanted it to be the start of something more permanent around here.

If I seem bitter or annoyed it's purely due to frustration of witnessing a massive talent on stage and no longer being there.
Patti definitely was the one who should have been carrying the Meat Loaf / Steinman flame onwards I think.

[nightinr]

Its always intrigued me what band members do day-to-day. Granted in the glory days they might be touring for a few months at a time and maybe helping with new music.

But even during the glory days Meat often had multi year breaks. How do they fill their time and make some money?

I might be wrong but I doubt they were paid big money even during tours.

[letsgotoofar]

Sometimes, filling their time and making their money proved difficult.

For example, in a story recounted on TWG's podcast with Patti, at one point in some downtime, Jim Steinman really wanted Patti to be in his impending Broadway production of Dance of the Vampires; I can confirm she was on his wish list for an actual role as far back as the initial reading, but by the time the show was actually getting ready to start production, the offer on the table was the understudy slot for the role of Magda. She aced the singing audition (it's a Steinman musical, it's a female supporting lead, she could do "All Coming Back" in her sleep), but then it came time for the dance portion; if you're only understudying a large (or even large-ish) role, they're gonna put you in the chorus as well, and that entails learning choreography. They were seeking dancers with extensive experience in jazz, tap, and ballet, and teaching the kind of steps you might see in Thriller. (I suspect they were seeing how they'd do with the "vampires coming out of their graves" number (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrVTNmimDp0) based on that description.) Well, anything more complicated than the sort of frontwoman moves she could bust out onstage with Meat was unfortunately beyond her, so after a bit of time gamely trying to absorb the dance combination everyone was being taught, she apologized to the casting director for wasting their time and left.

(Despite that, Jim was still campaigning for her, but Meat, upon hearing she'd been trying out for the show, reportedly put her on retainer so she couldn't be available, I guess because being on retainer meant she had to keep her schedule open -- or at least any other engagement was subject to employer approval -- in case Meat got bookings. More of that ambivalent relationship between him and Jim, I guess. As if that weren't enough, she apparently got an earful from Meat's accountant about how much this was costing him...)

Anyway... considering how Vampires went in New York, it's safe to say she dodged a bullet. Still, I think she'd have sung the shit out of it and been very funny in it, had they entered it with her in mind from the beginning and tailored it to her strong suits. (And, ideally, had it been a better version, more similar to the German original.) In case anyone's curious how that would have sounded and has a creative enough imagination, she'd have been the blonde in this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhwlwFtTX-w).

[nightinr]

The problem with music, theatre, art etc is it is very peaky and troughy. And once you get to a certain age it appears to be more difficult. Hopefully Patti made enough money to be comfortable.

[allrevvedup]

Sometimes, filling their time and making their money proved difficult.

For example, in a story recounted on TWG's podcast with Patti, at one point in some downtime, Jim Steinman really wanted Patti to be in his impending Broadway production of Dance of the Vampires; I can confirm she was on his wish list for an actual role as far back as the initial reading, but by the time the show was actually getting ready to start production, the offer on the table was the understudy slot for the role of Magda. She aced the singing audition (it's a Steinman musical, it's a female supporting lead, she could do "All Coming Back" in her sleep), but then it came time for the dance portion; if you're only understudying a large (or even large-ish) role, they're gonna put you in the chorus as well, and that entails learning choreography. They were seeking dancers with extensive experience in jazz, tap, and ballet, and teaching the kind of steps you might see in Thriller. (I suspect they were seeing how they'd do with the "vampires coming out of their graves" number (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrVTNmimDp0) based on that description.) Well, anything more complicated than the sort of frontwoman moves she could bust out onstage with Meat was unfortunately beyond her, so after a bit of time gamely trying to absorb the dance combination everyone was being taught, she apologized to the casting director for wasting their time and left.

(Despite that, Jim was still campaigning for her, but Meat, upon hearing she'd been trying out for the show, reportedly put her on retainer so she couldn't be available, I guess because being on retainer meant she had to keep her schedule open -- or at least any other engagement was subject to employer approval -- in case Meat got bookings. More of that ambivalent relationship between him and Jim, I guess. As if that weren't enough, she apparently got an earful from Meat's accountant about how much this was costing him...)

Anyway... considering how Vampires went in New York, it's safe to say she dodged a bullet. Still, I think she'd have sung the shit out of it and been very funny in it, had they entered it with her in mind from the beginning and tailored it to her strong suits. (And, ideally, had it been a better version, more similar to the German original.) In case anyone's curious how that would have sounded and has a creative enough imagination, she'd have been the blonde in this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhwlwFtTX-w).

None of that surprises me. There always seemed to be so much wasted time between Mr Steinman and Mr Loaf that it leads to thoughts of what could have been to add to two brilliant albums they worked on together and the all too few other tracks here and there.

As for Patti, as someone once said to me when seeing the a video for 'when it comes to love', "she has some set of pipes"

I'm in no doubt that she still has and Happy Birthday to her. Wherever she is at the moment, I hope she's having a brilliant time.

[nightinr]

I've just re listened to Jim Steinman and Patti's early days in the band podcasts. They are even better second time around. I must say Nick you have a talent as a host/interviewer. A very natural calm, soothing tone. It's a real shame they didn't carry on. It felt like we were just getting going!

Can I be so cheeky to ask Nick (or anyone who cares to answer) what was the alternative to Welcome to the Neighbourhood?

Although I felt it was a good-ish album it felt lacking in parts. No doubt it was rushed by record industry wanting to capitalise on Bat 2.

[letsgotoofar]

I'll take this one, since I already blew the lede here ages ago, much to TWG's chagrin, given his penchant for mystery (and maybe not trying to ruin the exclusive he thought would be aired on the podcast at some point):

Steven Van Zandt was working on a rock opera version of the Hunchback of Notre Dame story called Freak, and he had Meat in mind for Quasimodo and Patti for Esmeralda. He wrote tons of it self-referentially with Meat's involvement planned, including a song with a "Stop right there!" gag. It got as far as the demo stage, with the plan to follow up Bat II with the first actual story-based concept album -- remember, way before Hang Cool Teddy Bear -- in Meat's discography (unlike the loosely related but fairly-vague-in-Meat-context Steinman material), which Patti still contends would have been the biggest follow-up since Thriller followed Off the Wall. Unfortunately, Meat wouldn't go for it, in demo form (he's not on them, as far as I know) or as a project. One of the songs was called "Escape From Hell," which may account for the working title for Neighborhood. (My memory of specifics beyond that is murky, but I feel like, from what I remember of what was told to me several years ago, either Van Zandt tried to work in some songs he hadn't written that wound up on Neighborhood to entice Meat to the table [I faintly recall "Amnesty is Granted" was supposed to be part of it, but I may be remembering wrong], or Meat was happy to try to pillage Freak's song stack for what became Neighborhood but not to go all the way.)

[nightinr]

Thanks for the response very interesting.

It was a shame Meat waited so long to release another album after WTTN. By the time Couldnt have said it Better (dreadful album) was released the ship had sailed a bit

[jmfreeman]

Steve Van Zandt discusses this in his autobiography "Unrequited Infatuations". He tried crafting some songs for Meat Loaf after being told he likes to sing 'as a character'. Influenced by the 'Anything For Love' video, he went the gothic fairy-tale route, but it fizzled out quite early on as Meat wasn't interested.

[letsgotoofar]

To hear it told, Allen Kovac (Meat's manager from Bat II through 3 Bats Live) still has the masters for it. There may also be a copy lurking around in certain people's collections, but I couldn't swear to it in a court of law.

[ThatWriterGuy]

I've just re listened to Jim Steinman and Patti's early days in the band podcasts. They are even better second time around. I must say Nick you have a talent as a host/interviewer. A very natural calm, soothing tone. It's a real shame they didn't carry on. It felt like we were just getting going!

Can I be so cheeky to ask Nick (or anyone who cares to answer) what was the alternative to Welcome to the Neighbourhood?

Although I felt it was a good-ish album it felt lacking in parts. No doubt it was rushed by record industry wanting to capitalise on Bat 2.

Thanks for the kind words. We were a bit stiff, in retrospect, but I think it served its purpose pretty well.

As for FREAK -- it's a GREAT record.

I mean, they're demos, but they're PRO 'in the studio' demos.
They sound like the real deal.

The only reason I didn't go into detail back then was due to the legal stuff. Shame it'll probably never see the light of day. It would've been Meat's 'Tommy' (or, better yet, to this ear, at least -- his 'Quadrophenia').

There's a total of 12 tracks on FREAK.

First is titled OVERTURE.
Last is ... NOT A DRY EYE!

EDIT: Oh, and letsgotoofar is right, Sammy Hagar's 'Amnesty' is on there, too.
It's track 10.

[nightinr]

Very interesting....thanks for the response.

Out of interest were there any stand out tracks that you think could have been big hit singles?

[allrevvedup]

I'll take this one, since I already blew the lede here ages ago, much to TWG's chagrin, given his penchant for mystery (and maybe not trying to ruin the exclusive he thought would be aired on the podcast at some point):

Steven Van Zandt was working on a rock opera version of the Hunchback of Notre Dame story called Freak, and he had Meat in mind for Quasimodo and Patti for Esmeralda. He wrote tons of it self-referentially with Meat's involvement planned, including a song with a "Stop right there!" gag. It got as far as the demo stage, with the plan to follow up Bat II with the first actual story-based concept album -- remember, way before Hang Cool Teddy Bear -- in Meat's discography (unlike the loosely related but fairly-vague-in-Meat-context Steinman material), which Patti still contends would have been the biggest follow-up since Thriller followed Off the Wall. Unfortunately, Meat wouldn't go for it, in demo form (he's not on them, as far as I know) or as a project. One of the songs was called "Escape From Hell," which may account for the working title for Neighborhood. (My memory of specifics beyond that is murky, but I feel like, from what I remember of what was told to me several years ago, either Van Zandt tried to work in some songs he hadn't written that wound up on Neighborhood to entice Meat to the table [I faintly recall "Amnesty is Granted" was supposed to be part of it, but I may be remembering wrong], or Meat was happy to try to pillage Freak's song stack for what became Neighborhood but not to go all the way.)

The mention of Hunchback of Notre Dame is interesting as I vaguely remember an interview (for some reason I think it was with Paula Yates on Channel 4's The Big Breakfast) where he mentioned having a part in Hunchback of Notre Dame.

I remember at the time having read of an animated film in the works and I thought it was relating to that.

The film didn't come out until 1996 and Demi Moore lent her voice to it, so he could very well have been hinting at the rock opera idea.


He also mentioned having "an interesting part" in the third Batman film, so this would have probably put the interview in and around 1994. As far as I know, he wasn't in that.

I may be getting this all confused with a print interview he did around the same time.

[letsgotoofar]

Thanks for the kind words. We were a bit stiff, in retrospect, but I think it served its purpose pretty well.

Podcasting is far from an exact science. Mine ended after two episodes because I overestimated audience interest in the topic, and the "surprise hook" ultimately fell apart. Applaud what you got right.

[jmfreeman]

Meat was in the running for the animated movie of 'Hunchback' too, to further add to the confusion:

https://collider.com/disney-hunchback-of-notre-dame-mandy-patinkin-meat-loaf/

[ThatWriterGuy]

Very interesting....thanks for the response.

Out of interest were there any stand out tracks that you think could have been big hit singles?

Well, that's quite the loaded term ("big hit singles"), but, in the context of the era, sure, there's a bunch of great tracks on there.

I went back and listened to half of the record for the first time in five years last night. I'll tackle the rest tonight if I can free up the time. It's a thrilling listen. The whole project is like Bat II meets Phantom of the Opera by way of The Who (with emphasis on the latter).

I'd say the immediate stand outs are pretty much the songs you already know (especially Amnesty, which has a great vibe under this arrangement), but also the title track, Freak, would've been an interesting choice as a lead single.

For me, with Meat on vocals, the verses rewritten to reflect a more general sense of the narrative (as opposed to the character addressing the listener in the first person), and a Steinman-esque production, it could've been truly great (in fact, in a perfect world, I would've loved to hear Jim work on some of the more challenging lyrics).

I think it needed just a little development time and it could've landed more in the direction of where I'd hoped Meat would've gone after BAT II (less commercial than WTTN, but not quite as narrative heavy as the demo).

Listening back after all this time and there's some insanely great lead vox that somehow manage to channel both Meat, Phil Lynott, and Paul Stanley by someone whose name I just can't recall at the minute.

Patti's on this record, too -- can't remember if we discussed that on the podcast at the time.

[nightinr]

Thanks for the info. Was "Freak" released commercially in any form?

Always difficult to find that big hit from an album. Rightly or wrongly it often defines the commercial success of an album. I know I'm digressing away from the original thread (so my apologies), but do we know why Blind as a Bat wasn't realeased as a single from Bat 3? Imo it's clearly the best track on the album.

[letsgotoofar]

It was not. The timing coincided with Disney's Hunchback, and I don't remember the exact circumstances anymore, but that basically killed Steve's project's chances.

"Blind as a Bat" was intended to be a single and got as far as a promo release (https://mljs.evilnickname.org/meatloaf/singles/blindasabat.html), but the plug was pulled (apparently in favor of "Cry Over Me," since that ultimately got the push) and it wasn't really explained why.

[nightinr]

Seemed such a bizarre decision to release Cry Over Me as a single. One of the weaker tracks from the album. Did Meat ever sing it live? Don't recall it being part of the Three Bats tour?

Meat or somebody clearly liked Blind as a Bat as it was performed on a few Tv programmes

[ThatWriterGuy]

Track 5.

"All You Got to Do is Believe"

Probably one of my favourites.

It's not 'hit single' material in the way you'd think of the hits from Bat II, but the purpose of this record seemed to be a side step away (and beyond) that to some degree.

It's a huge, bombastic, heartfelt, adventurous album -- you can hear the scope of what Van Zandt was going for. He's channeling the Wagnerian Steinman thing in some of the arrangements, but he captures the rock n roll incredibly well (obviously, coming from the E Street Band, which was Jim's inspiration, in part). It's also not hokey in the sense of being explicitly the Hunchback of Notre Dame. I mean, that narrative is in there, for sure, but -- with a slight twist -- you could work a version that leans even less on that notion literally and relies more on the character story in a metaphorical way (much akin to IWDAFL, but heightened).

But here comes the rub. There are two tiers of songs on this record. Songs that work as standalone tracks, and songs that are essentially story pieces presented 'in character' (see Phantom of the Opera, Tommy, etc for an idea of the presentation, lyrics, and musical/rock crossover).

Again, given a little development on some of the the latter tracks -- mostly in the verses only, as the chorus are ALL killer -- it really could've been something else.

[proctorloaf]

So who do we sweet-talk for the link to the demo tracks? mwah x

[ThatWriterGuy]

So who do we sweet-talk for the link to the demo tracks? mwah x

Haha, nice try, but there's no online link that I know of (it's frustrating in a way, because I wish you guys could hear it. Especially now we're into the drought years where new material is practically non existent).

Best I can do is maybe post up the full track list?

If anyone's interested?

[letsgotoofar]

Sure. Question, if you know: was it just Little Steven writing, or did he have collaborators? I only ask because it's sort of always been portrayed as a solo -- or at least spearheaded by him -- deal, and yet tracks like "Amnesty" (Sammy Hagar) and "Not a Dry Eye" (Diane Warren) were apparently part of this.

[ThatWriterGuy]

As far as I know, it was majority Van Zandt (inc. concept) but with external writers on the recognizable tracks that made Neighborhood. I could be wrong, so don't quote me, but that was my understanding at the time.

[letsgotoofar]

No worries, just trying to nail a few things down. I wasn't sure, as you may recall from my initial info-dump reply, whether he absorbed those tracks trying to make it appeal to Meat or if they were part of it from the beginning.

(Side note: gotta shoot you an email, it's been way too long!)