View Full Version : Debate
TheDoode
06 Nov 2012, 10:52
I was going to reply to Kathy's post, and the others who have admitted that they haven't read the Voice thread, feel like they have no need to, and have gone on to assume and judge it anyway, but Mr. Happy has already said it all. One thing I will point out though: there was a disclaimer at the very top of that thread stating that it was to be a civil discussion, not focusing on the negative and most DEFINITELY not condoning the posting of comments of an unconstructive or hurtful nature.
But not having read that, you wouldn't know.
And one last point here: there's an awful lot of you who believe you do not fall into the '97%'. I'd think about that, because the math doesn't quite work out...
P.S. Where has the 'dislike' button suddenly disappeared to?
I was going to reply to Kathy's post, and the others who have admitted that they haven't read the Voice thread, feel like they have no need to, and have gone on to assume and judge it anyway, but Mr. Happy has already said it all. One thing I will point out though: there was a disclaimer at the very top of that thread stating that it was to be a civil discussion, not focusing on the negative and most DEFINITELY not condoning the posting of comments of an unconstructive or hurtful nature.
But not having read that, you wouldn't know.
And one last point here: there's an awful lot of you who believe you do not fall into the '97%'. I'd think about that, because the math doesn't quite work out...
P.S. Where has the 'dislike' button suddenly disappeared to?
It's there.
Are you trying to cause even more conflict by suggesting that more of us should be taking offence at the 97%?
I have no intention of 'thinking' about the math of it. If Meat Loaf thinks that I'm an evil person then he can, by all means, tell me so directly but until then I'll carry on believing what I damn well choose.
olblueeyes
06 Nov 2012, 11:10
IAnd one last point here: there's an awful lot of you who believe you do not fall into the '97%'. I'd think about that, because the math doesn't quite work out...
And even more who are still clinging to this 97% figure, that Meat has already since said was exaggerated.
Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
And even more who are still clinging to this 97% figure, that Meat has already since said was exaggerated.
Thank you.
He's already said it was exaggerated so those of us who have not taken offence because they do not believe they were included in that total are quite entitled to believe that.
TheDoode
06 Nov 2012, 11:30
It's there.
Really? I don't see it.
Are you trying to cause even more conflict by suggesting that more of us should be taking offence at the 97%?
I have no intention of 'thinking' about the math of it. If Meat Loaf thinks that I'm an evil person then he can, by all means, tell me so directly but until then I'll carry on believing what I damn well choose.
Without being drawn into this: no, I'm not trying to cause conflict. Hence explicitly making a post about not intending to cause conflict. Referring to a thread where I posted a very civil proviso at the top... to avoid conflict.
With regards to the 97% - I'm just expressing my own annoyance, and I'll leave it at that. Unless you make a post that requires a reply.
AndrewG
06 Nov 2012, 11:32
Thank you.
He's already said it was exaggerated so those of us who have not taken offence because they do not believe they were included in that total are quite entitled to believe that.
:tired:
This is getting crazy....
I think:
Man comes home tells his family to F off.
Family upset.
Next time man comes home man ought to apologise.
Family live happily ever after.
As the top on the forum says "we encourage honest opinion". Nothing in that voice thread was disrespectful, it was all honest. If we are forced to have to say "his voice is now the best ever" that's not honest. It would be propaganda and silly.
I know Meat wears his heart on his sleeve and probably some of the honest opinions do hurt him somewhat I guess, though I don't know why. If someone told me that that person loved my vocal during a certain era I can't understand why I wouldn't take that as a "Damn yes, I did that, this person loved what I did." instead of taking it as a constant negative "oh my voice isn't as good now."
I think Meat should be proud of his past career. I think everyone here looks at it with awe and most are still interested in what might be coming down the track.
I agree with this. When I read the comments, I looked at them from Meat's perspective and asked myself 'what has made him post those remarks' I could see that there was a lot of hurt underlying the comments. I don't know the exact reasons why he was so hurt but he's not the only person to have ever said something he doesn't mean in a state of emotion and I'm more than happy to show him a little bit of understanding.
Just as I did. And not because I consider myself some super fan .. simply because I like the man, have seen enough to know he's a genuinely decent human being, and my first instinct is to wonder what prompts a hurt and angry outburst from anyone I care about at all.
I thought of the stream of filthy abuse and threats he has had to deal with on his FB page. He then posts positively about a new tour and an album, and comes to his fanclub page to see the response from his fans; sees yet another thread about his voice .. and I DID read it, and there was a preponderance of posts suggesting that his best days were over. (And I agree with Kathy .. his voice is so much a part of who and what he is, I don't think there is any such thing as "constructive criticism" of Meat's voice, unless your name happens to be Eric Vetro either. Meat said some years ago .. I worry enough about my voice for all of us, let me do it please.) And when he comes to the thread about the new album, 5 of the first seven posts before he responded were hardly those of excited and happy fans delighted to hear there would be another album .. but more about "hoping" it would have Steinman songs, not have Avery songs, not be like his latest album etc .. Hardly what a performer would hope to see when he announces his new work in my view.
I'd say too, that at the M&Gs Meat is genuinely wanting to make the time the best experience he can for those there. It is not some well-disciplined act .. and I think it goes beyond professionalism too. It is about warmth, gratitude, and caring for the fans who are there.
The "maths" is an absolute distraction imo, and I don't think worth arguing. Yes, Meat exaggerated wildly because he was hurt .. but sometimes he may feel that there is an awful lot of criticism; I know I do, and I'm not the person who is the subject of it. Like Kathy, I hope that those loyal fans who do feel offended now might reconsider. I know that what he said was not directed at me; it wasn't meant to be directed at them either.
I also feel that continuing to slate him for what happened, stating he should apologise, disapproving that he let fly when he was feeling hurt .. all of this just makes it harder for anyone to say they're sorry. Andrew said man comes home, upsets his family, should apologise. I'd say, man may have had a really hard day. It helps if his family remember that, try to remember he loves them and may not mean exactly what he said, wonder why he is hurting, and don't keep rubbing his nose in his lapse. He will be feeling sorry, and will make it up to them.
To err is human; how many of us never err, never give way to our feelings and regret that we did? .. to allow others their human feelings, to understand and forgive is real humanity.
Caryl
TheDoode
06 Nov 2012, 12:06
I DID read it, and there was a preponderance of posts suggesting that his best days were over. (And I agree with Kathy .. his voice is so much a part of who and what he is, I don't think there is any such thing as "constructive criticism" of Meat's voice, unless your name happens to be Eric Vetro either.
If you read that thread: you should know better. If you picked up on the... wait, I'm counting, TWO posts suggesting that (in that persons own view, to their own taste) Meat Loaf's best vocals were several decades ago, then you read that thread quite selectively indeed, skipping the '97%' positive comments posted there.
I'd say too, that at the M&Gs Meat is genuinely wanting to make the time the best experience he can for those there. It is not some well-disciplined act .. and I think it goes beyond professionalism too. It is about warmth, gratitude, and caring for the fans who are there.
And making money. I'm not saying that the above isn't involved, but let's not forget the real reason that all artists' Meet & Greets exist.
The "maths" is an absolute distraction imo, and I don't think worth arguing.
Caryl
I'm getting really bored of this. This is a discussion forum, not a totalitarian regime. I'm not here to argue with you Caryl, or state the contrary to whatever you say, or even question your degree of fandom, but there are things I just can't agree with, and I'm not going to sit here and not respond.
Doode.
I'm not here to argue with you Caryl, or state the contrary to whatever you say, or even question your degree of fandom
:lawl:
There was in my view a general tone that Meat's voice had had it's heyday with some graphic representations of his voice peaking and tailing away. It's gone now, so neither of us can point to this or that, and we shall have to agree we disagree .. But, again in my view, there have been enough threads about Meat's voice .. as I think the moderator mentioned when he stopped you discussing on another thread.
I was about to write a long reply to Kathy's post, but Mr. Happy has already said most of the things I was going to say.
I have just one thing to add regarding her "just for the music is not good enough" statement: To which extent someone gets interested in Meat Loaf and/or his work is up to them - not to you (Kathy), Meat Loaf or anybody else. This is a fan club - not a sect or a dictatorship. Following an artist is a personal issue and no one has the right to interfere with other people's lives that way. This is a fan site, it is not Meat Loaf's site. He is a (voluntary) member here like everyone else - except that that he gets away with breaking forum rules again and again.
Kathy, if you want to unconditionally support Meat Loaf, that's fine. Do as you please, enjoy his concerts. I hope that you'll also understand the point of view of those who have an issue with the way he treats the members of this forum. It's not that this was just a single outburst, it was one in a row of many. This is a place for people to discuss topics that are related to Meat Loaf, not a place for someone to take out their frustration on its members in the way Meat Loaf does.
chairboys
06 Nov 2012, 13:14
There is an element of truth in this 'family' thing.
This fan club/forum seems to have all the dynamics of a family.
Meat is undoubtedly head of the house and we love him for being father and all the pleasure he has given us over the years. Yet, like any dad, he upsets his kids with his outbursts (whether the are justified or not).
But, like a loving family whose love is almost unconditional we tolerate this.
We know he has erred ( and not for the first time) so we mutter between ourselves how evil he his and then we keep our heads down for a while until he has had a good night's sleep and wakes up in the happy jovial and caring mood we know he has.
We won't leave and he won't leave. Because as the Mitchells (from Eastenders) would say " Families stick together!"
Those who have threatened to walk are certainly taking time to put their boots on!
But, I do believe a few need to recognise that Meat was a touch over the top.
Here's to a happy christmas and a rocking new year!
But, I do believe a few need to recognise that Meat was a touch over the top.
I've not said that he wasn't, but I see little point in going on about it over and over. I do believe that he probably feels pretty bad about it, as any decent person would.
I understand what its like to blow your top, and its a pretty crap feeling when you look at what you've done.
I'm still behind this guy 100% and never doubted it.
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
TheDoode
06 Nov 2012, 14:34
:lawl:
There was in my view a general tone that Meat's voice had had it's heyday with some graphic representations of his voice peaking and tailing away. It's gone now, so neither of us can point to this or that, and we shall have to agree we disagree .. But, again in my view, there have been enough threads about Meat's voice .. as I think the moderator mentioned when he stopped you discussing on another thread.
Again, I think you've chosen to be quite selective with what you've read. If you need the proof to back it up, feel free to ask those who contributed to the thread originally.
With regard to the reply above: I think it says it all really; there's no point in even attempting to have a discussion if you're going to respond in a snide, derogatory way to what was a sincere post.
And for the record the moderation stopped 'a' discussion on another thread, he didn't personally stop 'me' from discussion. The subject was deemed off topic, hence the new thread which was on topic.
If you have a problem, personally, I'll suggest that you PM me.
AndrewG
06 Nov 2012, 14:55
I also feel that continuing to slate him for what happened, stating he should apologise, disapproving that he let fly when he was feeling hurt .. all of this just makes it harder for anyone to say they're sorry. Andrew said man comes home, upsets his family, should apologise. I'd say, man may have had a really hard day. It helps if his family remember that, try to remember he loves them and may not mean exactly what he said, wonder why he is hurting, and don't keep rubbing his nose in his lapse. He will be feeling sorry, and will make it up to them.
Meat Loaf is an adult. He should take responsibility and take some of the realities on the chin.
Pitying a perpetrator to the extent some do here is something I would never agree with.
It's not always someone else's fault in my opinion.
I'm pretty sure no-one would have jumped to the defense if someone other than Meat Loaf had posted in that manner regardless of what had gone before.
Elijah's way
06 Nov 2012, 15:03
I'm sure nobody cares but I just voted for President Obama.
And sorry if this is against any rules or whatever.
I'm sure nobody cares but I just voted for President Obama.
And sorry if this is against any rules or whatever.
Was it against the rules to vote for Obama?:-)
Elijah's way
06 Nov 2012, 15:21
Was it against the rules to vote for Obama?:-)
lol no. I mean to share that info on this forum.
wizardofodd
06 Nov 2012, 15:28
I'm sure nobody cares but I just voted for President Obama.
And sorry if this is against any rules or whatever.
Hey if Meat can tell us who he is voting for so can you buddy. Good luck USA today, I hope you make the right decision. Who you elect matters and does effect the rest of the world.
"It saddens me to think that I can't turn back the hands of time "....
My favorite quote by a true genuine man, hopefully after today this can all be put to rest!!
Meat knows how I feel about him ... which, in all honestly, is all that truly matters to me.
So instead of thinking about what he said, why not spend the time looking at yourselves and
think about why he felt the need to say it ?
So instead of thinking about what he said, why not spend the time looking at yourselves and
think about why he felt the need to say it ?
Well I guess something about reason and respect. Which were both missing in his post.
But then again it would only have been important to some of us here if it was said TO Meat Loaf. Now, because it bursted out of his mouth, we should wave it away and find guilt in ourselves.
So I humored you and looked in the mirror and my conclusion... On the vocal issue he had NO reason as it was discussed with the most respect. And for the political issue he had to respond because some of us felt we had to respond on something he himself started in public. Something he knew all too well would create discussion.
Either way Meat is at least equaly part of everything. Although some use a well mannered tone and others not so
realViking
06 Nov 2012, 19:09
Hey you guys....Realviking is back ;-)
Got quite dry eyes from reading all the comments in this forum.
First I was shocked, then I got angry. After a while I got heart beat, now I'm calm again ;-)
Was a lot to read through, a lot of opinions and angry comments. Not only from the Meat, but from the fans too.
I live 10.000 mil away, far over the big sea, and has no knowledge to Usa `s policy, and therefore I feel I`m not the one to start disscussing this.
Everyone, and I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not everybody has the right to use these to defame / bully one individual.
You can say your opinions in an adult and respectful manner.
People who criticize and destroy will always exist, but the way the rest of us with a heart of respect and love can handle it, is what matter.
For my part I've fallen in love with Meats music and his personality and devotion to family and people around him.
This has made me a better "thinking and loving" mom and girlfriend.
I became a mother for the second time on August 13 this year, to a beautiful little boy, and when I was in the hospital with terrible pain, I had Meats music in my earplugs. This calmed me incredibly much.
Hoping to go to the UK in April, and finally get to experience this live.
I can honestly say that I am a true fan, even though I don`t agree everytime with Meats comments.
I don`t agree with my fiancee everytime, but that doesnt mean I don`t love him ;-)))
See ya`ll later, alligators ;-)
Hugs from Tine
And for the political issue he had to respond because some of us felt we had to respond on something he himself started in public.
:yep: As for his complaints about the reactions to it: He did not just state that he favored a particular candidate. He campaigned for him. He publicly urged people to vote for that candidate and talk everybody they know into doing the same. He just didn't tell people to wear blue socks instead of grey ones, he told them to do something that might affect their lives, the lives of their fellow countrymen and probably the lives of people in other parts of the world, too. That's not a careless decision to make. The moment you do that, you take on responsibility. If you decide to enter that minefield called politics, have the guts to deal with the consequences of your statements and actions. Expect that what you say and do will come under scrutiny and that there will be people who disagree with you.
Don't look at just one thread only. Look further and take time into your consideration. Do you think this issue started just recently? I'll answer that question for you: No. I just skimmed through recent posts and wrote down a few words that got my attention. Here they are: fairly good, struggles, far from perfect, terrible, screaming, weakest, disappointing, autotune, terrible, stupid, bad, lying, worst, painful, disrespectful, mediocre, horrid, slow, passionless, flatAnd now, look at the top left corner of this page. Right, that's his stage name, his trademark. Imagine there was a website with your name on top and on that site people would post comments like I mentioned above regarding your work/art over and over again - how would you react?
Well I guess something about reason and respect. Which were both missing in his post.
But then again it would only have been important to some of us here if it was said TO Meat Loaf. Now, because it bursted out of his mouth, we should wave it away and find guilt in ourselves.
So I humored you and looked in the mirror and my conclusion... On the vocal issue he had NO reason as it was discussed with the most respect. And for the political issue he had to respond because some of us felt we had to respond on something he himself started in public. Something he knew all too well would create discussion.
Either way Meat is at least equaly part of everything. Although some use a well mannered tone and others not so
Don't look at just one thread only. Look further and take time into your consideration. Do you think this issue started just recently? I'll answer that question for you: No. I just skimmed through recent posts and wrote down a few words that got my attention. Here they are: And now, look at the top left corner of this page. Right, that's his stage name, his trademark. Imagine there was a website with your name on top and on that site people would post comments like I mentioned above regarding your work/art over and over again - how would you react?
Yes, exactly ! Thank you !
Yes thank yo very much...CHSIB :)
Evil Ernie
06 Nov 2012, 19:59
Right, that's his stage name, his trademark. Imagine there was a website with your name on top and on that site people would post comments like I mentioned above regarding your work/art over and over again - how would you react?
As I said, some people are not cut out for the internet.
With regard to the reply above: I think it says it all really; there's no point in even attempting to have a discussion if you're going to respond in a snide, derogatory way to what was a sincere post.
Yes it was rather, I do apologise. I can't think what came over me.
Again, I think you've chosen to be quite selective with what you've read.
No, I read every post. What I should have said was that it was the impression I was left with. Perhaps Meat did the ame.
I'll suggest that you PM me.
Thank you, but no. I learn ;)
And now, look at the top left corner of this page. Right, that's his stage name, his trademark. Imagine there was a website with your name on top and on that site people would post comments like I mentioned above regarding your work/art over and over again - how would you react?
Thanks for asking. My answer: Not the way Meat did. But you don't have to take my word for it.
I believe Meat started with
97% of you can go to hell , don't buy my CD, don't buy tickets ... stay away from me .
You come to a meet and greet I will have you removed from the room and the building with your money back !!
I wouldn't say that to my fans. Are the people here always 100% positive? Thank God no. We're not a cult we are a fan community.
Would I handle things differently? Absolutely.
You see, and I mentioned this more often, Meat comes here, most of the time only responds on the negative he sees and eventually bursts in flames.
If this site would have my name and I was carrying the succes I would at least acknowledge the people here that do suport me and, maybe this is a difference, discuss their unlikings as an adult.
There is no way you can please everybody but if you're in the business for 48 years and come here to feed on negativity (which, by the way, isn't always as negative as Meat claims) you're bound to get upset every time you come here.
Sorry R. but I couldn't disagree with you more. I appreciate you come out and express your opinion but the outburst of Meat Loaf here was uncalled for. No matter how much words from posts you quote. And certainly if all these words come back in one single post against a fictional 97% of the fans.
Don't look at just one thread only. Look further and take time into your consideration. Do you think this issue started just recently? I'll answer that question for you: No. I just skimmed through recent posts and wrote down a few words that got my attention. Here they are: And now, look at the top left corner of this page. Right, that's his stage name, his trademark. Imagine there was a website with your name on top and on that site people would post comments like I mentioned above regarding your work/art over and over again - how would you react?
Were I as passionate and committed to what I did? .. I would be hurt, disappointed, tired of it, baffled, and I might well lose my patience and my temper at a final straw I felt laid on my back.
Caryl
I agree with R. 100%!!!!
me too.
Don't look at just one thread only. Look further and take time into your consideration. Do you think this issue started just recently? I'll answer that question for you: No. I just skimmed through recent posts and wrote down a few words that got my attention. Here they are:
fairly good, struggles, far from perfect, terrible, screaming, weakest, disappointing, autotune, terrible, stupid, bad, lying, worst, painful, disrespectful, mediocre, horrid, slow, passionless, flat
Btw what's wrong if you find that Meat's voice was fairly good? or if he Struggled. Or even if it's far from perfect? He's human and we should be able to point it out. Half of your list are observations from fans. Sorry if in your world Meat never missed a note. But in the real World we think differently and we like to share that with other Meat Loaf fans who saw, hear and can comment on it.;)
loaferman61
06 Nov 2012, 20:27
Don't look at just one thread only. Look further and take time into your consideration. Do you think this issue started just recently? I'll answer that question for you: No. I just skimmed through recent posts and wrote down a few words that got my attention. Here they are:
Quote:
fairly good, struggles, far from perfect, terrible, screaming, weakest, disappointing, autotune, terrible, stupid, bad, lying, worst, painful, disrespectful, mediocre, horrid, slow, passionless, flat
To be fair though I have caught flack for pointing out that on here every show is "perfect", "amazing", "note perfect", etc. There are posts that go to either extreme. Meat seems to be preoccupied with looking for the negatives or paying more attention to them. I wasn't exactly popular for backing his decision to do the endorsement either. Yet at times I have been clear that his voice is always changing, I think sometimes due to how much rest between shows. I thought he sounded fine in-person back in August. I try to call them as I see them and there is little middle ground on the forum, it is either "perfect" or it "sucks" on here it seems at times. Sometimes both are true (although "perfect" is very rare by definition), sometimes it lies in between. Probably most of the time it doesn't really deserve to be said to "suck" either.
Thanks for asking. My answer: Not the way Meat did. But you don't have to take my word for it.
I believe Meat started with
I wouldn't say that to my fans. Are the people here always 100% positive? Thank God no. We're not a cult we are a fan community.
Would I handle things differently? Absolutely.
You see, and I mentioned this more often, Meat comes here, most of the time only responds on the negative he sees and eventually bursts in flames.
If this site would have my name and I was carrying the succes I would at least acknowledge the people here that do suport me and, maybe this is a difference, discuss their unlikings as an adult.
There is no way you can please everybody but if you're in the business for 48 years and come here to feed on negativity (which, by the way, isn't always as negative as Meat claims) you're bound to get upset every time you come here.
Sorry R. but I couldn't disagree with you more. I appreciate you come out and express your opinion but the outburst of Meat Loaf here was uncalled for. No matter how much words from posts you quote. And certainly if all these words come back in one single post against a fictional 97% of the fans.Now, what if that behaviour would last for 5 years and longer?
Btw what's wrong if you find that Meat's voice was fairly good? or if he Struggled. Or even if it's far from perfect? He's human and we should be able to point it out. Half of your list are observations from fans.All of them.Sorry if in your world Meat never missed a note. But in the real World we think differently and we like to share that with other Meat Loaf fans who saw, hear and can comment on it.;)Quit interesting being called delusional from someone who knows absolutley nothing about me. Is this that what you call respect or did I just read that wrong?
Now, what if that behaviour would last for 5 years and longer?
Again it's also a big part how you handle it yourself. Meat doesn't seem to handle any for of critique quite well. You can hardly blame me for it.
If he went out, focussing more on the positive (which is more than plenty on this board) he would have a more pleasent time.
All of them.
Interesting. Does this mean you think people here should only point out what they considered to be good or fantastic. And keep their mouths shut if they consider it differently?
Quit interesting being called delusional from someone who knows absolutley nothing about me. Is this that what you call respect or did I just read that wrong?
I haven't called you delusional. I guess you really read that wrong. But sorry if I gave you that impression.
To be fair though I have caught flack for pointing out that on here every show is "perfect", "amazing", "note perfect", etc. There are posts that go to either extreme.True.
Meat seems to be preoccupied with looking for the negatives or paying more attention to them.True again. Most likely because of the top left corner I already mentioned.
wizardofodd
06 Nov 2012, 20:44
I get Meats anger, I understand his frustration, he gets criticised on facebook and on twitter and then comes to the site that bares his name, his fan club and finds critics here too, some who are perhaps far too harsh. Difficult to take for an emotional guy such as Meat. BUT 97% is a ridiculous exaggeration and a foolish statement, his words were wrong and hurtful to many, he over stepped the line. There is no denying it. To come to a tight community which as a whole represent a small but dedicated proportion of your fan base and use such language is just stupid. However in a way I am glad he vented his rage here, took out his anger in a more personal and arguably forgiving environment because if he did it on FB or twitter then IMO it would have been even more damaging to his character.
The Flying Mouse
06 Nov 2012, 20:48
If everyone is worried and fighting for their friends, why doesn't the friend try and get a message to Meat themselves? They have already made up their mind anyway haven't they? :shrug:
:twisted: If fans have the right to speak up for Meat, fans have the right to speak up for their friends.
In some peoples defence, the thread title isn't very clear.
And if it were changed now some people would wonder where the feck it is :wtf:
See R's post. Doesn't matter if it's called "Debate" "Marmite" or "Kevin", we all know what the thread is about. I've posted it myself several times.
If someone tells 97% of a club or group I'm part of to go to hell, I'm not going to act like I couldn't care less, regardless of whether I feel like I'm personally counted amongst that number.
Same here.
Rightly or wrongly I support this community.
I think that the minority of critical posts gets more attention than the majority of postitive and supportive posts.
It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease :shrug:
But I thought that Meat was far too harsh in his distain of this forum and the people who post here.
He said "97%"
In the last 24 hours, 185 registered users have visited this forum. Take into account that this thread has resulted in it being a heavy traffic day too.
That means (on a busy day) there are less than 6 good fans on this forum. The rest are deemed evil.
If you read posts by six people you consider fans, it means that you are not.
So yes, I find that unfair, and insulting.
And even more who are still clinging to this 97% figure, that Meat has already since said was exaggerated.
Then it would be nice to have a new estimate.
there was a preponderance of posts suggesting that his best days were over.
Perhaps because some people believe that?
I myself said I thought his 88 Live album was the best i'd ever heard.
On the face ot it, if you really really want to take my post that way, you could say that I was saying Meat peaked in 88 and it's all downhill from there.
But I also posted that I still got a lot of pleasure from his work, that i've ALWAYS taken a lot of pleasure from his work. From the first era to the present day.
Now is that really such an offensive thing to say?
You didn't, Caryl, because you liked my post. ;)
I say, with no problem or regret at all, that I peaked as a magician at about 20 years old. It was at my most creative (in that field) my interest in the field was still strong, the hands were fast and the brain was quick (believe it or not :p ).
That doesn't mean that I still can't change your religion with a deck of cards.
Being past your peak is no big deal as long as you can still do it better than anyone else.
as I think the moderator mentioned when he stopped you discussing on another thread.
Yes, I stopped the discussion on the general condition of Meat's voice on the Endorcement thread.
Like this one, that thread was far too hot as it was without adding a big off topic debate into the mix.
I've not said that he wasn't, but I see little point in going on about it over and over. I do believe that he probably feels pretty bad about it, as any decent person would.
Because folks have been insulted, and are pretty pissed off about it.
You might as well ask Meat why he feels the need to go on and on about things he's read on the forum or on facebook.
At least the things posted here are generally honest opinions that are posted with no other reason to express themselves to other fans.
They are not posted with an intent to hurt Meat, or to insult him personally.
What Meat posted here was intended to offend, hurt, and upset.
That's the difference IMHO.
If someone treats you like that, you shouldn't turn your back on them, not if you love them, but in all fairness it's perfectly normal to stay pissed off at them until they say that magic word, sorry.
If I spoke to Meat the way he spoke to us, I wouldn't expect him to forgive me until I apologised. And quite frankly, I don't know if he would. I don't believe he has that much interest in me to think forgivness warrented if I spoke to him like that.
As for myself, I don't need an apology from Meat.
I still love the guy.
But it would have been a nice gesture, and it would have gone a long way, and brought back a lot of respect from a lot of folks :shrug:
I understand what its like to blow your top, and its a pretty crap feeling when you look at what you've done.
Hell yeah, we've all done it.
I'm still behind this guy 100% and never doubted it.
Me too.
But i'm still behind this community too.
If two of my friends fall out, I don't have to hate one of them.
I might not agree with one of them has done, but it doesn't mean that I shoyld desert them.
The two of them heal the rift, and things go on.
And for the record the moderation stopped 'a' discussion on another thread, he didn't personally stop 'me' from discussion. The subject was deemed off topic, hence the new thread which was on topic.
That's right, and I could have fecking killed you for opening that thread :bicker: :lol:
As i've said (several times) as soon as I saw the thread appear I thought it wouldn't get past the first page before it was locked, but I was proved wrong. The posts were respectful, and mostly positive.
Nothing was said to be hurtful or snide, it was just fans talking about their favourite artists various eras. I couldn't argue with it.
True.
True again. Most likely because of the top left corner I already mentioned.
Maybe this should be an adoration board then instead of a discussion one.
Anyway I'm out Ajax is Playing Man City. And as an Ajax fan I expect the worst :evil:
Again it's also a big part how you handle it yourself. Meat doesn't seem to handle any for of critique quite well. You can hardly blame me for it.Did I blame you? I'm pretty sure I didn't.
Interesting. Does this mean you think people here should only point out what they considered to be good or fantastic. And keep their mouths shut if they consider it differently?No.
I haven't called you delusional. I guess you really read that wrong. But sorry if I gave you that impression.Ok, I just read that wrong then.
TheDoode
06 Nov 2012, 21:07
Originally Posted by Adje:
Interesting. Does this mean you think people here should only point out what they considered to be good or fantastic. And keep their mouths shut if they consider it differently?
No.
Are you sure? I understand that this is your site, but that does come across as being the general philosophy.
Originally Posted by Adje:
Interesting. Does this mean you think people here should only point out what they considered to be good or fantastic. And keep their mouths shut if they consider it differently?
Are you sure? I understand that this is your site, but that does come across as being the general philosophy.
Yes, I am sure. Otherwise this thread wouldn't even exist.
No.
Then what is wrong with saying "Meat Loaf struggled, wasn't far from perfect,' or 'his voice was fairly good' ?
It's not a rude word choice or anything. I agree it's not positive but it seems honest opinion.
Then what is wrong with saying "Meat Loaf struggled, wasn't far from perfect,' or 'his voice was fairly good' ?
It's not a rude word choice or anything. I agree it's not positive but it seems honest opinion.Who decides what's rude or not? You or the person you are talking/writing to?
How's Ajax doing?
loaferman61
06 Nov 2012, 22:20
I don't hate him either. I have always admired him. I do dislike some of his recent behavior. As you said it has been immature. at the very least. I will always love his music. It just speaks to my soul. That will never change. I will definitely be buying his next album.
AS far as going to a future live show, that will depend on his own behavior. As much as I love the music, I wouldn't feel right about supporting an artist who has in fact PERSONALLY insulted me! Don't forget there was an entire thread started by him specifically to respond to ME. Yes it was moved over to this thread. That makes this all very personal to me. I was singled out and PERSONALLY insulted by a very grown man who I had always admired and would expect better & more mature behavior from. I am not sure whether to laugh at the absurdity of it or cry because it hurt so much.
I did say some harsh things so I am a bit to blame. I was just expressing my feelings and even though I may have been harsh, I stand by the sentiment & truthfulness of what I said. As an artist who, by the very nature of his career, chose to live his life in the public eye, Meat should be better able & prepared to handle criticism from the public. Yes, he is human. Still to attack his fans and make it personal is unacceptable to me. Yes, it hurts
Obviously something I said, affected him on a deep level. If there was absolutely no truth to anything I said, I would think he would just ignore it and laugh it off. Usually people react like that when there is enough truth in what is being said to strike at the heart of the matter and touch a nerve.
Again, harsh or not, I do have "the balls" to stand by what I have said. You - both Meat and the rest of the fans - can agree or disagree with me. That is just how I feel.
For years we have walked on eggshells on this board about what is acceptable to say lest Meat read it. Never mind that most of the time it was positive, almost to a sickening degree by some, Meat chooses to read the stuff he feels is negative and react badly to it. I am very sad because his last interaction with the board a month or so ago was quite pleasant and he shared a lot of good information, now he tells 97% where to go. Almost as has been said like it was posted by 2 different people though I am sure Meat did his own postings. I don't know if I'm in the 97% or the 3% but I'm going to call them like I see them. Telling your loyal fans who almost worship you to go to hell is probably a bad idea IMO. At least I feel like the eggshells are gone, hopefully for good.
TheDoode
06 Nov 2012, 22:29
Yes, I am sure. Otherwise this thread wouldn't even exist.
Yeah, I was surprised by this. It's a good thing; a step in the right direction.
A small one that needs working on if you want to keep people posting here.
I'm optimistic :cool:
TheDoode
06 Nov 2012, 22:35
Yes it was rather, I do apologise. I can't think what came over me.
Again, that really says it all :roll: If you can't be civil (or even back up your own arguments without resorting to sarcasm and snide remarks), then I'd rather we just didn't.
I agree with R. 100%!!!!
So do I, Suzieq!! I have a big complaint for him, however: R. needs to implement a TWO Thumbs Up button, so I can use it on his post (lol)
So do I, Suzieq!! I have a big complaint for him, however: R. needs to implement a TWO Thumbs Up button, so I can use it on his post (lol)
I second that :up::up:
Who decides what's rude or not? You or the person you are talking/writing to?
How's Ajax doing?
I think it's about common sense. But I guess it's always in the eyes of the beholder.
But even then I don't think the first post on this topic -and what is stated- justifies it
gave away a 2 goal lead but were lucky to keep it a draw. Made me very happy. Not suspected they would win a point
Btw what's wrong if you find that Meat's voice was fairly good? or if he Struggled. Or even if it's far from perfect? He's human and we should be able to point it out. Half of your list are observations from fans. Sorry if in your world Meat never missed a note. But in the real World we think differently and we like to share that with other Meat Loaf fans who saw, hear and can comment on it.;)
In the real world, the fact that Meat is human does not need to be pointed out. The fact that it has been "pointed out" here, over and over for the past nine years, has sensitized ME to such a degree I often dread coming here. I can hardly imagine how I'd feel if all these so-very-kindly "shared" posts were about me.
BostonAngel
06 Nov 2012, 22:56
If someone tells 97% of a club or group I'm part of to go to hell, I'm not going to act like I couldn't care less, regardless of whether I feel like I'm personally counted amongst that number.
EXACTLY! even if you don't feel as if you were part of the 97%, a friend or someone you know would be included, so you would still care. At least I hope my friends would care.
The Flying Mouse
06 Nov 2012, 22:57
In the real world, the fact that Meat is human does not need to be pointed out. The fact that it has been "pointed out" here, over and over for the past nine years, has sensitized ME to such a degree I often dread coming here. I can hardly imagine how I'd feel if all these so-very-kindly "shared" posts were about me.
:twisted: It's equally pointed out by members as an excuse for when he takes off, like in the post at the start of the thread.
i.e. You can't blame him for taking things personally and fighting back, he's only human.
TheDoode
06 Nov 2012, 22:57
In the real world, the fact that Meat is human does not need to be pointed out. The fact that it has been "pointed out" here, over and over for the past nine years, has sensitized ME to such a degree I often dread coming here. I can hardly imagine how I'd feel if all these so-very-kindly "shared" posts were about me.
The answer's a simple one: make this not a discussion forum. In its current form it should be fair for any member to discuss or comment on any aspect of Meat Loaf's public appearances and/or artistic output, as long as those comments are not intentionally rude or inflammatory. Otherwise, it's just a section of enthusiastic users telling the other users what they can and can't post. Which feels as oppressive as passive bullying.
If someone tells 97% of a club or group I'm part of to go to hell, I'm not going to act like I couldn't care less, regardless of whether I feel like I'm personally counted amongst that number.
I react to life and others as an individual. I am never going to take offense on any but a personal level. My interpretation of Meat's post is that he himself felt personally offended by some here, and was addressing those people only.
.
I second that :up::up:
Ha ha, oh look, you found two thumbs up!!!!
Carole
maybe this is all a publicity stunt to promote the record and get us excited voer the title "brave and crazy"
The answer's a simple one: make this not a discussion forum. In its current form it should be fair for any member to discuss or comment on any aspect of Meat Loaf's public appearances and/or artistic output, as long as those comments are not intentionally rude or inflammatory. Otherwise, it's just a section of enthusiastic users telling the other users what they can and can't post. Which feels as oppressive as passive bullying.
Your simple answer would work well if Meat were not on this forum. But he is, and he has been hurt, for the umpteenth time, by comments about his voice. Maybe this concerns you less than the feeling of "oppression" you have at not being able to say whatever you like. If so, you are among those I mentioned earlier, who don't care about him as a person; otherwise you would not want to see him hurt. And you would not view efforts to encourage honest but non-hurtful posts as "bullying."
.
ricgough
06 Nov 2012, 23:37
Or maybe he was genuinely mad at how phenomenally good we thought he was vocally from '87-94 ?
Paul Richardson
06 Nov 2012, 23:37
I didn't read the "voice thread." I saw it start, and thought "ohhhh jeez."
... and now you can't read it because it was deleted for no good reason ... but how can you criticise what you didn't see ?
I very frankly don't believe there is any such thing as "constructive criticism" of Meat's voice, unless your name happens to be Eric Vetro.
Why, does no one but Eric Vetro have ears ? I could equally say your (no doubt) positive opinion of Meat's voice is invalid because you're not professionally qualified.
Meat is a nice guy; many of you know that. He doesn't become angry without reason.
To be honest I'm beginning to doubt that Meat is a nice guy ...
I felt terrible when I read his first post, but at no point did I feel his anger was directed at me, so I took no offense.
Why - 97% includes almost everyone - why are you able to take the moral high ground ?
Instead of taking offense where none was intended, those of us who do care about Meat as a person (as well as an artist) will continue to support him.
So what exactly does Meat have to do to cause offense ? It appeared somewhat offensive to me ... how can you say no offense was intended when everyone was told to go to hell ?
Those who don't care about Meat, or who feel no loyalty toward him, might question why they are here.
Who here doesn't care about Meat ? Its nonsense. Are you going to name names then ?
maybe this is all a publicity stunt to promote the record and get us excited voer the title "brave and crazy"
LOL ...he sure is, though! (brave and crazy) :D
.
I agree most don't deserve it , but I had to start the fight to find the real enemies. When it ends the real fans will still be here and I will do something special for them . Was thinking when I came on that was going to invite all here to a dress Rehearsal in April. I would say 97% will be invited.
Meat
I'll be there in the end !! You're just too awesome, you are such an amazing and wonderful person I could never give up on you !! :D
I Can't find the right words to say to you what you mean to me and how I feel about you, the above sums it right up that's the best I can do to say this...You're beautiful Meat !!
'' You know I'm gonna stick with ya when the hard times hit'' !!!! ;)
Marleen X:D
ricgough
06 Nov 2012, 23:51
I'll be there in the end !! You're just too awesome, you are such an amazing and wonderful person I could never give up on you !! :D
I Can't find the right words to say to you what you mean to me and how I feel about you, the above sums it right up that's the best I can do to say this...You're beautiful Meat !!
'' You know I'm gonna stick with ya when the hard times hit'' !!!! ;)
Marleen X:D
Everybody here cares about Meat and have stuck with him through thick and thin. Some of us for many dacades too. Some of us however refrain from making statements as if we know him personally when we only ever really get a snapshot at his professional and artistic life.
Soem of us also have opinions that we like some of his output more or less.
The very fact we buy it and continue to do do so; that we still go to shows and enjoy them should suggest that we are not being necessarily critical of the stuff we like less, just that we are more enamoured with the stuff we like more - and that extends to vocal performances too.
Some people here are so "black and white"....
maybe this is all a publicity stunt to promote the record and get us excited voer the title "brave and crazy"
A publicity stunt for a 1% of his fan base? Sure...
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
praise the loaf
07 Nov 2012, 01:54
Meat, you're absolutely right!
I'm only reading through stuff here but today I have to post my opinion.
Most of the people here just write bullshit. When you see all this bullshit, for me it was only a matter of time until Meat reacts to it.
It's all about winding Meat up, he deserves better.
Let him be and listen to Madonna instead!
ps:
I don't care what you think about what I've said, 'cause most of you have no clue what they are talking about. Inform yourself about policy you wanna talk about or simply keep yourself quiet. thank you
well well been away for a few days & come back to this took me a while to read posts have not seen other thread & not seen facebook entries & i am not remotely intrested as its meats personal choice & his own opinion .like we all have on here now & in the past ref meats voice so he gave as good as he gets no problem with that i'll take it as constructive criticism like we all give to him it amazes me how many people took offence meat is person not just a celebrity(oops)rock ledgend lets all just move on & look forward to a new album & a uk tour
dont do politics on here i'm here for the music & friends that enjoy it with me
someone please start a happy thread...hey how bout..what songs do we think he will sing on the Christmas album???:)
someone please start a happy thread...hey how bout..what songs do we think he will sing on the Christmas album???:)
How the hell can someone dislike the suggestion of a happy thread ???... Good Loaf !!!
But I thought that Meat was far too harsh in his distain of this forum and the people who post here.
Everybody has the right to react and object to statements they regard as unfair or hurtful. The problem is that Meat Loaf usually does it in a very disproportionate way. Unfortunately he does not discuss but lashes out most of the time. I guess that hardly anyone would have an issue with him disagreeing or being upset with something if he expressed his views in a more adequate and less aggressive way.
How the hell can someone dislike the suggestion of a happy thread ???... Good Loaf !!!
I was wondering exactly the same thing :(
Evil Ernie
07 Nov 2012, 05:32
:twisted: It's equally pointed out by members as an excuse for when he takes off, like in the post at the start of the thread.
i.e. You can't blame him for taking things personally and fighting back, he's only human.
How about this:
Try to be better than the typical human.
Usually those are the ones that end up being revered.
Btw, seeing as Mitt Romney lost the election I wonder if it was all worth it for ML in the end. Too bad he couldn't have backed a candidate that had a chance of winning. Frankly, Romney was the best of a really bad (and batshit crazy) group of candidates.
anotherday
07 Nov 2012, 05:47
I think WE can put the debate TO BED.
Obama won.
The Flying Mouse
07 Nov 2012, 06:02
Btw, seeing as Mitt Romney lost the election I wonder if it was all worth it for ML in the end.
:twisted: A little off the topic here (so I can see me deleting my own post if needs be :facepalm: ), but I don't think you can meassure if it was worth it to Meat based on Romney's success (well, failure).
Standing up for what one believes is it's own reward, and Meat did that.
As for political preferences, see off topic :wink:
I think WE can put the debate TO BED.
Obama won.
But the thread is not about who wins the election, it's about Meat's post here :wink:
wish romney won. makes everything that has transpired here seem pointless and uneeded. Good fans for lost cause of this ordeal and it didnt need to happen. Mosntro, allrevved up, bostonangel :(
whatever happened to pudding?
The Flying Mouse
07 Nov 2012, 07:51
wish romney won. makes everything that has transpired here seem pointless and uneeded. Good fans for lost cause of this ordeal and it didnt need to happen. Mosntro, allrevved up, bostonangel :(
:twisted: I don't think a fair minded fan has a problem with the actual endorcement, Chris.
I think the issue is how Meat dealt with the fall out. To not reassure those who could have used it concerning which of Romneys policies he believed in (and the ones he disagrees with), to edit his facebook page (which I can understand) and his reaction here when he visited the forum.
His endorcement was well meant and honest, and I can back him on that, even though I don't share his views. It's having him insult the fans so badly that has got a lot of feathers ruffled.
TheDoode
07 Nov 2012, 09:17
Your simple answer would work well if Meat were not on this forum. But he is, and he has been hurt, for the umpteenth time, by comments about his voice. Maybe this concerns you less than the feeling of "oppression" you have at not being able to say whatever you like. If so, you are among those I mentioned earlier, who don't care about him as a person; otherwise you would not want to see him hurt. And you would not view efforts to encourage honest but non-hurtful posts as "bullying."
.
Did you read the post you just quoted? The bit about posts not being "intentionally rude or inflammatory"? I keep stating this over and over again, and the replies come back regurgitated.
As for not viewing "efforts to encourage honest but non-hurtful posts as "bullying" - that's not what I said at all. Ever. So please don't accuse me of that, or as part of your 'you're either one or the other type of fan' mentality. Because I find that kind of oppressive too. And annoying.
Evil Ernie
07 Nov 2012, 09:57
wish romney won. makes everything that has transpired here seem pointless and uneeded. Good fans for lost cause of this ordeal and it didnt need to happen. Mosntro, allrevved up, bostonangel :(
whatever happened to pudding?
Is ML endorsing him the only reason that you wish this happened?
Would you have voted for Obama otherwise?
Or do you simply not vote due to a desirable candidate? Like me.
Last I checked the world supply of pudding has not been depleted. You can go to your local grocery store to buy pudding for you sustenance. I kind of wang some now.
realViking
07 Nov 2012, 10:55
I agree most don't deserve it , but I had to start the fight to find the real enemies. When it ends the real fans will still be here and I will do something special for them . Was thinking when I came on that was going to invite all here to a dress Rehearsal in April. I would say 97% will be invited.
Meat
i`m sooooo wondering if I`ll get invited, even though I live far north in little Norway.....I`v been nice...I`v been good...I`v been a really good Girl ;-)
Battybarb
07 Nov 2012, 11:05
If you are a true fan of someone in this case Meat Loaf and I have been for years .you are a fan for their music and their talent , and whatever their political views are their business and is nothing to do with anyone else , I have read some articles where Meat has been slated and some awful things have been said by people who are meant to be fans , at the end of the day everyone is entitled to their opinion and this includes Meat Loaf , what happened to free speech ?
TheDoode
07 Nov 2012, 11:49
If you are a true fan of someone in this case Meat Loaf and I have been for years .you are a fan for their music and their talent , and whatever their political views are their business and is nothing to do with anyone else , I have read some articles where Meat has been slated and some awful things have been said by people who are meant to be fans , at the end of the day everyone is entitled to their opinion and this includes Meat Loaf , what happened to free speech ?
Apparently it only exists if you're called Meat Loaf.
I'm thinking about changing my name.
renegadeangel
07 Nov 2012, 11:52
Seems pretty clear that Meat was intent on upsetting those he feels are too negative and would very much like them to leave. I'm only guessing but it seems that he blew up to force the people he feels are negative to come out or just go away.
I think he would rather have those who are super critical leave and not post at all and he forced the issue with the shotgun approach.
Right or wrong that is how it appears...
jcmoorehead
07 Nov 2012, 13:24
Like a few other fans throughout this thread I rarely post on this forum anymore, it is a shame because I enjoy how Meat interacts with fans and to be honest he was one of the first, and actually still is one of the very few artists who I see interacting with fans via a message board and that speaks volumes to me about how much he does appreciate the fans even if there is the occasional rant.
I do take issue with the opening statement, having been a forum admin for over ten years on bigger message boards it is something that I would have locked straight away and not allowed to escalate like this has done. That's just me though and I'm sure the admins/moderators here have reasons for keeping it open, after all freedom of speech, etc. I don't think however it is fair to call out 97% of your fans on this board for being whatever, some of them on here are critical, perhaps a bit too harsh, whatever but it's your tightest fanclub on the internet and the people who hang around on boards like this are always the harshest critics. I hang around on the Mike Portnoy/Dream Theater boards loads and they take an absolute hammering from their fans, they all love the music and albums but if James has an off night live he'll get hammered for it, and Mike Portnoy is (And especially now that he isn't in the band anymore) always getting it in the neck.
I'm sure it's what comes of being famous and in that limelight, far be it from me to tell you how to act but you've dealt with criticism before and surely you can just shrug it off. As I said maybe people were a bit harsh but it's so easy to come across as harsh when you let your fingers run away with you and not reread what you write.
The politics thing, I was surprised when Meat endorsed Romney, but he explained his reasoning and I can appreciate that. Being from Britain I only hear the more extreme ends of the views on both sides, I personally would have been an Obama supporter were I American but we have the freedom to choose, hell I voted Conservative over here in the UK last election. (Yes I do regret it.) Of course people should have respected your choice, but your threw yourself out there into the public eye with your support and politics causes people to go a bit over the top. Again the internet has unfortunately lead to people being a bit harsher then then normally would be, hiding behind anonymity and nicknames, not that I think people should be forced into giving their real names but it does make it easier for people to be nastier.
At the end of it, I am and will continue to be a Meat Loaf fan, regardless of political support (Unless you like... become a Nazi or something then I'll probably have second thoughts) or any bad performances because it was your music I was brought up with and that I have loved for years. Yes as a fan I'll be critical of some moments, and at the end of it you're human like I am so I'll disagree with what some of your views may be.
I don't think it is fair at all for you to come on here and call out your fans or argue with them regardless of what they might have said, if you had an issue surely you should have spoke privately to a moderator and got it sorted that way. Instead creating this kind of public mess doesn't help anyone, it's just caused petty arguments and doesn't exactly look great for any Meat Loaf fans who might come across these forums.
chairboys
07 Nov 2012, 14:36
I say, with no problem or regret at all, that I peaked as a magician at about 20 years old. It was at my most creative (in that field) my interest in the field was still strong, the hands were fast and the brain was quick (believe it or not :p ).
Some of your sleight of hand when cleaning up a thread still bamboozles me.
You've still got it!
At least he still likes 3% of his fans.:-)
BostonAngel
07 Nov 2012, 17:15
If you are a true fan of someone in this case Meat Loaf and I have been for years .you are a fan for their music and their talent , and whatever their political views are their business and is nothing to do with anyone else , I have read some articles where Meat has been slated and some awful things have been said by people who are meant to be fans , at the end of the day everyone is entitled to their opinion and this includes Meat Loaf , what happened to free speech ?
If was about his political views this would be true. The problem wasn't with his politics, it was about his generally bad behavior on so many levels, which reached a peak when he insulted 97% of his fan base. As a fan even if you didn't feel like you were one of the 97%, one of your friends had to be. He then tried to soften that message by saying the figure was highly inflated. IT was too little too late. The damage had already been done and people had already been hurt. The problem was also that Meat was using his free speech yet not allowing his fans that same option - to speak freely. When fans spoke out against that, he then insulted those that dared excercise the right to free speech, calling them "his enemies." The whole free speech thing works both ways - it is for the fans as well as Meat.
Every single time someone says it is simply about politics, it shows that they haven't been paying attention and reading what others have to say to find out what is going on. That only brings the whole heart of the debate and the feelings that go along with it back to the surface again.
AndrewG
07 Nov 2012, 17:25
I think Meat has been hanging around with idiots like Donald Trump too long. What a moron that man is, showing his true colours mocking the electoral college system, saying it is not a "democratic" vote. Would a vote by 90% white men be "more" democratic?? And I'm sure he wouldn't have made a squeek had Romney won.
samurai7
07 Nov 2012, 17:30
At least he still likes 3% of his fans.:-)
Wanna have a stab at naming them? ;)
Wanna have a stab at naming them? ;)
I'm tempted, but think I'll leave it! ;)
AndrewG
07 Nov 2012, 18:34
Wanna have a stab at naming them? ;)
It seems several people have already declared themselves as being part of the 3% club in this thread. :-P
chairboys
07 Nov 2012, 19:49
If Meat does invite the fan club to a rehearsal I fear a riot in the crowd. :-)
BostonAngel
07 Nov 2012, 20:00
It seems several people have already declared themselves as being part of the 3% club in this thread. :-P
To true! At least 25% have declared themselves to be part of the 3% LOL
BostonAngel
07 Nov 2012, 20:01
I'm tempted, but think I'll leave it! ;)
It is tempting; I shall resist as well :idea: :lol:
It seems several people have already declared themselves as being part of the 3% club in this thread. :-P
A number of people have said they took no personal offence because they knew Meat wouldn't consider them hyper-critical, negative or against him in any way, me being one of them. I don't indulge in percentage talk because personally I dismissed the figures Meat quoted as nothing more than exaggeration in the heat of the moment. Like many who have posted here, I know he wasn't including me, that's all ;)
ricgough
07 Nov 2012, 21:06
I think Meat has been hanging around with idiots like Donald Trump too long. What a moron that man is, showing his true colours mocking the electoral college system, saying it is not a "democratic" vote. Would a vote by 90% white men be "more" democratic?? And I'm sure he wouldn't have made a squeek had Romney won.
It does highlight how important it is to win the popular vote as well as the electoral one, and last time I checked, Obama won that too.
That kinda "trumps" Trump's argument if you ask me.
I hope Meat does understand he has no real enemies here, and I can understand how honest opinions can be difficult to swallow when it is you who is being talked about and you (quite obviously) care deeply and quite rightly, about issues such as politics and how fans view your career.
I increasingly get a picture of someone who wears his heart on his sleeve, and whilst I can't say I agree with some of the statements he has made here, or appreciate the tone of these responses, I do respect the fact that he is honest, works hard and clearly cares deeply - you just couldn't get that mad if you didn't.
I think the time has come for a little perspective now. Yes Meat does appear to have a heated temper at times, but also I've seen plenty of genuine kindness in his postings - concern fo Pudding after the New Zealand earthquake last year and wedding-day messages both on-stage and on here for example.
On balance I know he is a good guy, but also a man of emotional extremes. (too many concussions ;O ? ) It is this that probably makes him the performer we love so much in the end, so I ain't going to criticise too much. We are all flawed, we all get hurt sometimes and all have the capacity to hurt back.
The "blame game" just becomes pointless and immature after a while....
I think this has probably gone on long enough now, so I call for a bit of balance from the critics in the same way to the way I called for the similar from one or two of the more sychophantic among us in an earlier post.
I think that's me done on this thread, it is getting repetitive and silly.
If Meat wants to discuss anything I've said which may have unitentionally annoyed him in any way I'll happily discuss it via email. I ain't going to get into a slagging match on the board without offering the opportunity to discuss things confidentially beforehand....
lorenzoduke
07 Nov 2012, 21:58
In any social situation - and this forum is a social situation - there will be debate about things. The person who loses their temper, their cool, and resorts to shouting, swearing and insults owes the people at that gathering an apology.
That anyone would defend this behaviour is beyond me. I've admired Meat for years to the point that friends have pulled me up on constantly extolling his virtues - but where decent manners are concerned I wouldn't waver whether it was Meat Loaf, John Lennon, Jesus Christ or Mother Hubbard who was shitting at the dinner table.
As for this crap about how he was basically doing an experiment on us all? Well, I'm not a rat and this isn't a laboratory.
Understanding isn't agreeing, endorsing or even condoning; nor is forgiving.
On balance I know he is a good guy, but also a man of emotional extremes. It is this that probably makes him the performer we love so much in the end, so I ain't going to criticise too much. We are all flawed, we all get hurt sometimes and all have the capacity to hurt back.
The "blame game" just becomes pointless and immature after a while....
I think this has probably gone on long enough now.
That I can endorse wholeheartedly
ricgough
07 Nov 2012, 22:16
In any social situation - and this forum is a social situation - there will be debate about things. The person who loses their temper, their cool, and resorts to shouting, swearing and insults owes the people at that gathering an apology.
That anyone would defend this behaviour is beyond me. I've admired Meat for years to the point that friends have pulled me up on constantly extolling his virtues - but where decent manners are concerned I wouldn't waver whether it was Meat Loaf, John Lennon, Jesus Christ or Mother Hubbard who was shitting at the dinner table.
As for this crap about how he was basically doing an experiment on us all? Well, I'm not a rat and this isn't a laboratory.
Okay - tha last one was the penultimate post on this matter.
In the social situation you described - the person who resorts to that kind of behaviour usually looses the argument. I don't think Meat was in the right here, everyone would have welcomed his measured thoughts on the issues that he aparrently took offence to.
I don't think I'm necessarily defending Meat, Just saying that the level of recrimination is getting daft now, and the slightly bipolar nature of his artistic output is what attracted is here in the first-place after all. What's the point in getting offended at an internet post anyway? Meat is still Meat, you are still you. we all still think what we thought before about the issues in hand.
I'm sure Meat is a good guy. Perhaps difficult to live with sometimes but a good guy. I'm also sure those of us who discussed the issues which drew the reaction did so in an honest and legitimate manner. It is a fundamental right to disagree and I don't think any party here would argue with that. The recriminations are just going on too long, becoming self-indulgent and it is getting petty now.
one last thought - this is Meat Loaf. An artist, musician, actor, performer, lover, fighter, businessman, liberal, independent, republican, conservative, commune-living-hippy, charlie manson hitchiker, friend of Steinman (who's sexuality and political affiliations are freely discussed and remain searchable on another forum), a soft-ball coach, charity worker, philanthropist, employer, employee, registered trade mark, husband, father and many other things not in the public domain.
If I had been trying to hold that identity together in the public eye for the last 40 years then I'm sure i'd have some conflicts - cut the guy some slack and ask yourself the question: can you say you would never spout off on a web forum if you saw something you rightly or wrongly percieved as threatening or ill informed?
That's all.
Tomjoad
07 Nov 2012, 22:41
Meat congratulates President Obama on fb page, have a look...
The Flying Mouse
07 Nov 2012, 22:43
:twisted: I think his last post on facebook is very telling towards how he's feeling.
Especially the last paragraph.
I think it shows he's a decent human being
Is there more than one Meat Loaf? That is totally contrary to what he said just a few days ago. I need a drink...
robgomm
07 Nov 2012, 23:00
Is there more than one Meat Loaf? That is totally contrary to what he said just a few days ago. I need a drink...
Not really, he admits he lashes out in the heat of the moment when he is attacked with lies and intolerance. We know this already so yes it's the same person.
The Flying Mouse
07 Nov 2012, 23:01
Is there more than one Meat Loaf? That is totally contrary to what he said just a few days ago. I need a drink...
:twisted: It sounds to me like a guy who's blown a gasket, realized he's over reacted, and feels sorry for his actions.
Over reaction and remorse for it is not something that is exclusive to the rich and famous. :wink:
He's only human :mrgreen: :lol:
I think a post like that posted here would go a long way to healing the wounds here, but personally I know how he's feeling, and I don't need to hear him say it.
If he chooses to say it here, it would be appreciated.
It's not always easy to apologise because you f*cked up, that's why it sometimes means so much.
At the end of the day, he f*cked up, simple as that.
He felt rattled and blew his top, some people are great at holding their tongues, others not and clearly he's not. Does that make what he said excusable or any more pleasant to read? Absolutely not, it's actually quite offensive, but who here hasn't ever gone mental and come out with stuff they regret?!
The guy f*cked up. Move on.
Is there more than one Meat Loaf? That is totally contrary to what he said just a few days ago. I need a drink...
At least it's a sane post. Nothing like
Obama is spineless. If obama is elected by 2016 the world will be ,shoot first and ask questions later.
So I just hope he came to his senses. At least his facebook message deserves credit. Nothing like that nutcase of a Trump.
In the end it takes a man to accept defeat. Romney did it graciously and I think Meat Loaf did the right thing too. He understands that now the contest is over there is no use at demonishing the President. No matter who you voted for, after election day you all need to work together to get something done.
Fair enough, Meat worded that well :cool:
ricgough
07 Nov 2012, 23:40
Not really, he admits he lashes out in the heat of the moment when he is attacked with lies and intolerance. We know this already so yes it's the same person.
I'd contest that he found "lies and intolerance" here, but I guess "Truth resides in every human Heart , and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has the right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth". The problems start when you afford others the right to live by that mandate even when it doesn't sit easily with your own interpretation of truth.
"Truth" is subjective - I am a scientist and all of science comes down to subjective interpretation until peer-review (or just plain consequence, i.e aeroplanes flying, or atoms splitting) leads to to a general acceptance of facts.
More talking and less shouting is never a bad thing when conflicts between individual truths occur.
Love Ya Meat.
Rich.
where did meat say Obama was spineless? :|
where did meat say Obama was spineless? :|
In here somewhere
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
...
Why, does no one but Eric Vetro have ears ? I could equally say your (no doubt) positive opinion of Meat's voice is invalid because you're not professionally qualified.
You didn't read carefully. I was differentiating between discussion of how Meat uses his voice and discussion of his voice itself. Some have confused the two, and made statements about Meat's voice based on his singing on a given occasion, e.g. the last moment of "America the Beautiful" in Defiance.
We all have ears to hear him sing, but only Meat himself and Eric Vetro (and any other professionals he may employ to help him care for and develop his voice) are qualified to criticise that voice.
This is not a trivial distinction. And for the purposes of this board, the fewer sweeping generalizations made the fewer heated arguments we'll have.
ricgough
08 Nov 2012, 01:53
You didn't read carefully. I was differentiating between discussion of how Meat uses his voice and discussion of his voice itself. Some have confused the two, and made statements about Meat's voice based on his singing on a given occasion, e.g. the last moment of "America the Beautiful" in Defiance.
We all have ears to hear him sing, but only Meat himself and Eric Vetro (and any other professionals he may employ to help him care for and develop his voice) are qualified to criticise that voice.
This is not a trivial distinction. And for the purposes of this board, the fewer sweeping generalizations made the fewer heated arguments we'll have.
Sorry, anyone with an appreciation of music is qualfied to criticise.
The question for me is the degree of relevance of those criticisms. Objectivity is significant - Vetro by his being on the payroll is not necessarily objective - he is just employed to get the most out of the current voice.
He isn't doing a bad job either, but completely objectively?
Nah, sorry. Meat gives everything. It's good enough for me, but is my opinion objective? no.
There have been times in Meat's career that even negatively bised critics have had to conceede that performances were objectively outstanding. You don't share a stage with Pavarrotti otherwise.
Meat has vocal ability capable of being the best objectively. More recently "outstanding" has been a more subjective appraisal based on effort, cultural significance, and fandom - not that that isn't something to be immensely proud of.
Evil Ernie
08 Nov 2012, 03:52
where did meat say Obama was spineless? :|
Uh, first post.
97% of you can go to hell , don't buy my CD, don't buy tickets ... stay away from me .
You come to a meet and greet I will have you removed from the room and the building with your money back !!
Adje , how dare you assume I agree with him 100% one of My best friend is Eric Vetro he is gay , I am going to be his best man.
I believe He has the right idea for HC ( state Level) where it works in Mass. , standing up to China ... Did you know Putin fired 4 cruse missiles that could carry war heads. 3 days before the last debate . Obama is spineless and I voted for him in 08. Missed 109 Security meetings but got in 109 rounds of Golf. I want to be president so I can have so much time off. I voted for Gay marriage, Marched in Gay rights march's in NYC and in LA , Support Glad. If obama is elected by 2016 the world will be ,shoot first and ask questions later. They laughed at me when I said Putin was our major problem. He ships weapons to 4 countries who in turn ship them out again. I have been a an Lib independent forever. Go stuff it !!
97% of you stay at least 100 ft away from me , I don't want your support !!
"Where lies can't hurt me
The flesh desert me
No in or out
No loss or doubt
No living with or doing without
Where money ain't the power king
And kindness is the most precious thing"
Just Sayin'
:/
Paul Richardson
08 Nov 2012, 07:42
We all have ears to hear him sing, but only Meat himself and Eric Vetro (and any other professionals he may employ to help him care for and develop his voice) are qualified to criticise that voice.
So we're getting into semantics here ... and assuming that the performance and the voice are separate things, where one is qualified to criticise the performance but not the voice, if I understand you correctly ?
The two are inextricably linked surely, and its difficult to say if the performances are consistently good or bad, this doesn't reflect the condition of the voice. This is hardly a 'sweeping generalisation'.
TheDoode
08 Nov 2012, 09:49
We all have ears to hear him sing, but only Meat himself and Eric Vetro (and any other professionals he may employ to help him care for and develop his voice) are qualified to criticise that voice.
Seriously? :roll: Please, speak for yourself and not the rest of the people here. There's so much to address in that one short paragraph that I don't even know where to start. In fact, I don't even think I want to. :evil:
anotherday
08 Nov 2012, 16:19
How did this go from MEATS political VIEW to his VOICE?
How did this go from MEATS political VIEW to his VOICE?
Read Meat's posts along with the rest of this thread, and hopefully that will help you understand.
anotherday
08 Nov 2012, 18:23
Excuse me, I have read the WHOLE thread. But wasn't this SAME topic discussed days ago in another thread about Meat endorsing Mitt? SORRY but it seems to be going in circles...
The Flying Mouse
08 Nov 2012, 18:51
How did this go from MEATS political VIEW to his VOICE?
:twisted: Like this..............
Not talking about Romney , I read the thread about my voice... It was so mean and hurtful that at that point,I knew their were no real fans on this site !
:wink:
Meat Redfish
08 Nov 2012, 19:01
Meat why dont people respect your choices? i dont understand? been a fan of yours from the 80s and always will music and acting is what i like! i dont like it when people bring in personal things! #respect hope your well meat loaf :) ... one of the REAL fans!
Evil Ernie
08 Nov 2012, 21:57
We all have ears to hear him sing, but only Meat himself and Eric Vetro (and any other professionals he may employ to help him care for and develop his voice) are qualified to criticise that voice.
This is not a trivial distinction. And for the purposes of this board, the fewer sweeping generalizations made the fewer heated arguments we'll have.
Sorry, but I (or anybody else) have the right to critique anybody that I (they) like. If the person of topic chooses to get offended than that is there choice and their problem.
And heated arguments are fun. It's the same reason why political debates are fun. There's no point to having a message board where everybody agrees all the time.
AndrewG
08 Nov 2012, 22:05
You didn't read carefully. I was differentiating between discussion of how Meat uses his voice and discussion of his voice itself. Some have confused the two, and made statements about Meat's voice based on his singing on a given occasion, e.g. the last moment of "America the Beautiful" in Defiance.
We all have ears to hear him sing, but only Meat himself and Eric Vetro (and any other professionals he may employ to help him care for and develop his voice) are qualified to criticise that voice.
This is not a trivial distinction. And for the purposes of this board, the fewer sweeping generalizations made the fewer heated arguments we'll have.
If Meat sings that bad as he did at the endorsement to the extent it is embarrasing for himself and for me as a fan then you can bet your bottom dollar I will be honest and tell people his voice sucked. Call me Eric Vetro if you have to. ;-)
If I would say he was amazing it would completely undermine the times I said he was amazing when it actually was. There would be no point in honest opinion and you might as well turn this into a kiss ass adoration board as someone suggested.
Paul Richardson
08 Nov 2012, 22:23
... you might as well turn this into a kiss ass adoration board as someone suggested ...
I think there's a large number of people here who would like that very much :roll:
KayBaby
08 Nov 2012, 23:22
I'm appalled at all of this.
I've never seen anyone treat their fans this way. If this was a test to flush out the "enemies," I'm not playing. You can't take back words. I'm very disappointed.
I've got better things to do.
He felt rattled and blew his top, some people are great at holding their tongues, others not and clearly he's not. Does that make what he said excusable or any more pleasant to read? Absolutely not, it's actually quite offensive, but who here hasn't ever gone mental and come out with stuff they regret?!
Move on.
I agree. It's time.
Call me Eric Vetro if you have to. ;-)
Eric Vetro, you are not.
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
And heated arguments are fun. It's the same reason why political debates are fun. There's no point to having a message board where everybody agrees all the time.
Heated arguments are NOT fun. Discussions ARE and it's perfectly possible in life to have a discussion where opinions differ without it resorting to a heated argument.
SORRY but it seems to be going in circles...
Something that seems to happen rather a lot around here. :roll:
He felt rattled and blew his top, some people are great at holding their tongues, others not and clearly he's not. Does that make what he said excusable or any more pleasant to read? Absolutely not, it's actually quite offensive, but who here hasn't ever gone mental and come out with stuff they regret?!
The guy f*cked up. Move on.
I agree with this. I think most of us have made whatever point we have decided to make and now things just seem to be going around in circles. I think it's time to move on too.
AndrewG
09 Nov 2012, 09:48
I agree with this. I think most of us have made whatever point we have decided to make and now things just seem to be going around in circles. I think it's time to move on too.
I'm sure several people would have liked to have had this thread locked the minute it started and simply forgiven Meat no matter what he would have written. Actually just a few posts back proved exactly that some people have NOT had a chance to make their viewpoint clear just because they do not log in every two seconds.
Just because someone does not share your viewpoint doesn't mean to say they should be silenced.
I'm sure several people would have liked to have had this thread locked the minute it started and simply forgiven Meat no matter what he would have written. Actually just a few posts back proved exactly that some people have NOT had a chance to make their viewpoint clear just because they do not log in every two seconds.
Just because someone does not share your viewpoint doesn't mean to say they should be silenced.
I'm not talking about the people that are commenting on this matter for the first time, I'm talking about those people that seem to keep on about it but you're right, they shouldn't be silenced. After all we all have the right to say what we want.
I'M SORRY I SPOKE.
AndrewG
09 Nov 2012, 10:34
I'm not talking about the people that are commenting on this matter for the first time, I'm talking about those people that seem to keep on about it but you're right, they shouldn't be silenced. After all we all have the right to say what we want.
I'M SORRY I SPOKE.
Fair enough I understand what you are now saying but I've seen the "let's move on" thing lead to only thing on this site.... and in actual fact that didn't stop Meat. :-P
chairboys
09 Nov 2012, 12:51
I have fallen into the "time to move on camp".
Don't you know this thread was started a whopping FIVE days ago!
Amazing how one can get "bored" with it all. :zzz:
I hope if Meat explodes again it is when he channels his frustrations into a super-charged performance for the fan club. :-)
Don't you know this thread was started a whopping FIVE days ago!
And since FIVE days someone who came to this board on Sunday just to be rude to its users has missed the opportunity to apologize and repair some of the damage that has been done by that action. Go to a webside, insult "97 %" of its users and leave the people you attacked argueing among each other. Nice...
loaferman61
09 Nov 2012, 14:38
And since FIVE days someone who came to this board on Sunday just to be rude to its users has missed the opportunity to apologize and repair some of the damage that has been done by that action. Go to a webside, insult "97 %" of its users and leave the people you attacked argueing among each other. Nice...
Anyone surprised by the lack of any reconciliation message, let alone an apology in 5 days? Anyone? Bueller...Bueller
Devil's Son
09 Nov 2012, 15:54
And since FIVE days someone who came to this board on Sunday just to be rude to its users has missed the opportunity to apologize and repair some of the damage that has been done by that action. Go to a webside, insult "97 %" of its users and leave the people you attacked argueing among each other. Nice...
tienes razón - you're right
but i guess there won't be an apologize and this thread will die as time goes by and i guess it will happen again. the question is how many of the users/mod/admin will get more and more tired of this in the future?
:devil:
Mr. Happy
09 Nov 2012, 16:00
Go to a webside, insult "97 %" of its users and leave the people you attacked argueing among each other. Nice...
It wasn't actually 97%, that was an exaggeration - a devious yet genius ploy to find out who was a real fan and who isn't. A scheme...better, a master plan, if you will. If you're offended, you're just a part of the problem!
Remember? :twisted:
That's indeed very clever. Just leave it to the victims of your wrath to figure out to which degree you "exaggerated" your numbers and who actually belonged to which category. That way you can easily shift the responsibility for your actions on to someone else. Brilliant! :twisted:
Paul Richardson
09 Nov 2012, 16:45
... create civil war, and watch the forces of good overcome the forces of evil, with only the righteous, the loyal true fans, left standing ... :twisted:
loaferman61
09 Nov 2012, 17:02
It wasn't actually 97%, that was an exaggeration - a devious yet genius ploy to find out who was a real fan and who isn't. A scheme...better, a master plan, if you will. If you're offended, you're just a part of the problem!
Remember? :twisted:
So does he really not want our money? Or was that an exaggeration too? If you are in the exaggerated 97% you are not supposed to buy the CD right?
It looks like some of you are just around here for the fun of trolling. On one hand you complain, that we're running around in circles and on the other hand you're doing your very best to stir the pot again and again. I'm not yet sure what to do, wether I hand out a few trolling infractions resulting in a ban or simply lock the thread. You'll find out soon enough.
TheDoode
09 Nov 2012, 17:34
It looks like some of you are just around here for the fun of trolling. On one hand you complain, that we're running around in circles and on the other hand you're doing your very best to stir the pot again and again. I'm not yet sure what to do, wether I hand out a few trolling infractions resulting in a ban or simply lock the thread. You'll find out soon enough.
I was starting to think along the same lines, but I don't think banning or thread locking is such a great idea. Just a wild stab in the dark but maybe asking them not to inflame the topic further might be better than dictating :shrug: - which is kind of how it comes across.
This is Rainer's site, he hosts it, we are here at his invitation. He doesn't "come across as a dictator" to me. I think he is firm and fair, and I think to post that is rather out of order, and not within the forum guidelines. If I have any issue with Rainer's decisions, or those of a moderator, I contact them off the board as requested.
This is Rainer's site, he hosts it, we are here at his invitation. He doesn't "come across as a dictator" to me. I think he is firm and fair, and I think to post that is rather out of order, and not within the forum guidelines. If I have any issue with Rainer's decisions, or those of a moderator, I contact them off the board as requested.
Exactly.
TheDoode
09 Nov 2012, 18:09
This is Rainer's site, he hosts it, we are here at his invitation. He doesn't "come across as a dictator" to me. I think he is firm and fair, and I think to post that is rather out of order, and not within the forum guidelines. If I have any issue with Rainer's decisions, or those of a moderator, I contact them off the board as requested.
It's not out of order, Caryl. It's a discussion forum, and if it's going to stay active and have users engaged in discussion, silence by way of claiming ownership isn't going to go down that well. If you create something within the public domain dedicated to a popular artist, you have to accept that they're going to want to use it for debate. I'm glad that R set this site up in the first place, but I do think that on occasion he can come across as being a bit dictatorial. I'd like to be part of an equal community. Where people are treated equally. The fact that this thread is still open and relatively un-edited is a positive step I think, and I'm pretty impressed that R and the mods have gone there.
robgomm
09 Nov 2012, 19:29
I think R is fair and just on this forum, he has never been dictatorial. I agree with him that recent posts have been very much troll like slagging off Meat, it's been like a bunch of stupid teenagers egging each other on. I think some bans would be entirely appropriate and are actually long overdue, so in that respect R and the mods have been TOO fair to some people.
TheDoode
09 Nov 2012, 19:37
I think R is fair and just on this forum, he has never been dictatorial. I agree with him that recent posts have been very much troll like slagging off Meat, it's been like a bunch of stupid teenagers egging each other on. I think some bans would be entirely appropriate and are actually long overdue, so in that respect R and the mods have been TOO fair to some people.
I think the question then becomes 'where's the middle ground?' I know that I don't come here to offend and provoke Meat Loaf, but I also know I don't come here to gush over everything he says or does. If I have an interest in part of his performance or technique (or a song, or a record, or a video), I want to talk about that and see what other people think. Sometimes I want to hear from the other side of the opinion so I can adjust my own views to things I might not have been aware of or thought about before. I don't come to this site to cause the owner any offense, and I don't come here to intentionally offend other users.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's where I'm coming from.
Paul Richardson
09 Nov 2012, 20:15
It looks like some of you are just around here for the fun of trolling. On one hand you complain, that we're running around in circles and on the other hand you're doing your very best to stir the pot again and again. I'm not yet sure what to do, wether I hand out a few trolling infractions resulting in a ban or simply lock the thread. You'll find out soon enough.
I guess these are fairly unprecedented times.
The artist whom the site is named after, and whom we all love and admire, tells everyone where to go, in response to reactions to his endorsement - which to many was provocative - and to a thread which was respectful enough, but not to his liking.
Perhaps some people are annoyed / upset and would appreciate an apology - as I think one moderator suggested in a recent post.
No one has posted in the abusive style that Meat has, so perhaps people just need to be cut some slack if their posts are somewhat annoyed, upset or even cynical ?
Only my opinion.
It's not out of order, Caryl. It's a discussion forum,
And I expressed my thought on this forum where people frequently bang on about freedom of expression, and Rainer was referring to trolling, not discussion.
This thread has veered well away from "the other side of the opinion" so that you or anyone else can adjust their view, and headed into repeating the same opinions, which seem aimed to fan the flames and keep the pot stirred.
I just put two people on my ignore list. It works very well, whatever they post, I won't be annoyed by it as I just don't see it. :)) Meat Loaf could do the same and put the 97 % forum members he loathes (or whatever the "correct" percentage is - I don't know it since he didn't bother to reveal it) on his ignore list as well - if his main problem with this forum is indeed posts he feels hurt and offended by. Attempts to "find enemies" and control what is being said and who uses this forum might become difficult, though. ;)
Paul Richardson
09 Nov 2012, 20:38
I think R is fair and just on this forum, he has never been dictatorial. I agree with him that recent posts have been very much troll like slagging off Meat, it's been like a bunch of stupid teenagers egging each other on. I think some bans would be entirely appropriate and are actually long overdue, so in that respect R and the mods have been TOO fair to some people.
I've tried to ignore this ... but I just can't ... this is like diving in the penalty box to get footballers sent off ...
Fact is, I'm asking all the time. And some people simply don't get the message. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can test us or me how long it takes until explosion.
Any more even borderline trolling in this thread and it's GONE. And that might include a ban for the troll as well. This includes:
Meat went over the top. He apologised on Facebook, a platform with a way bigger reach than this one. It was mentioned and acknowledged in this thread and you can now either accept this apology or not. Either way, if you're waiting for another apology here, then you're shit out of luck imho. Accept that Facebook apology or not, but move on. Any more posts whining about an apology, see above.
Coming back after years of absence for a snide remark is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Any more of that will result in permanent absence of the absentee.
Leave the 97% alone. It has been scrutinised thouroughly. Read the thread.
Anything else that I feel is off topic to this thread, for example the current state of your ignore list or any other remark of that quality. The forum allows to you to edit your post within 60 minutes. Use the edit function. Btw., that was a hint.
Regarding the middle ground mentioned earlier. I'm looking for that for more than ten (10) years. There is none. Common sense? Missing as well.
I'll give you a hint: Read my recent posts, understand them. Try to answer my question (to Adje) for yourself. And then read and understand Paul Crooks's recent posts. This might give you an idea where Meat and Paul are coming from and how to find that infamous middle ground.
Should all calm down and have a cup of tea
Anything else that I feel is off topic to this thread, for example the current state of your ignore list or any other remark of that quality.
Not really off topic. I mentioned it because I realized that it's a useful option that (hopefully) keeps me from getting into silly fights with certain people. There are some forum members (not many ;)) who repeatedly say things that bother me, and which sometimes tempt me to add fuel to the fire and make me react in a way that I later regret. That's why I actually understand why Meat Loaf often feels offended and gets angry - because I know how easily words can make you angry, regardless of whether the originator of those words intended that or if it was some innocent statement that was just taken the wrong way. What I don't understand is his overuse of cuss words and his tendency to blow things out of proportion and accuse his fans of not liking him.
Fact is, I'm asking all the time. And some people simply don't get the message. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can test us or me how long it takes until explosion.
Any more even borderline trolling in this thread and it's GONE. And that might include a ban for the troll as well. This includes:
Meat went over the top. He apologised on Facebook, a platform with a way bigger reach than this one. It was mentioned and acknowledged in this thread and you can now either accept this apology or not. Either way, if you're waiting for another apology here, then you're shit out of luck imho. Accept that Facebook apology or not, but move on. Any more posts whining about an apology, see above.
Coming back after years of absence for a snide remark is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Any more of that will result in permanent absence of the absentee.
Leave the 97% alone. It has been scrutinised thouroughly. Read the thread.
Anything else that I feel is off topic to this thread, for example the current state of your ignore list or any other remark of that quality. The forum allows to you to edit your post within 60 minutes. Use the edit function. Btw., that was a hint.
Regarding the middle ground mentioned earlier. I'm looking for that for more than ten (10) years. There is none. Common sense? Missing as well.
I'll give you a hint: Read my recent posts, understand them. Try to answer my question (to Adje) for yourself. And then read and understand Paul Crooks's recent posts. This might give you an idea where Meat and Paul are coming from and how to find that infamous middle ground.
And where exactly? As you know, using facebook as a forum an insult for any structured conversation...
To be 100% honest, I don't care about apologies on facebook when I even don't find them. He insulted most of the fans here, so he should apologies here.
To participate in this hateful election of the US president (and this hate is driven by the Republican Party and Fox News for the last 4 years and the differmation of the term "facts") is Meat's own fault. It is sad to see, that a singer bringing together all kind of people, such as Meat, endorses any of the canditates. I guess 99% of the artists just endorse a canditate because they agree on the surface with the canditate. In this election it is already bad to endorse one even if you don't support them 100%! And then, you as an artist, don't expect any kind of shitstorm?:shock:
I am not that much hurt from his 97% statement, but more how blindly he copies the Fox News statements about "facts". The same goes if you just listen to MSNBC. I feel so sorry for you all in the US that satire comedy shows like thedailyshow.com show me more facts than Fox News ever can or how Fox News bends facts, discredits opponents from the other or own party (for example Ron Paul).
This is why I don't want to know anything about the political views of my artists.
Ok, for one thing, I noticed in someone's post that they said Meat got angry because people were attacking his choice of endorsing Romney. (sorry, can't remember who, I'm on my phone so not going back, but might have been Paul Richardson)
We've been over this before (like many other things around here) that he was not angry because of people disagreeing with his choice (which is ok for people to do, and was being done, imo & to memory, respectfully) he even came on line and said that was not the reason, it was the voice thread that made him angry, and I can understand why. Imo, that thread was not majorly respectful.
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
AndrewG
10 Nov 2012, 12:07
We've been over this before (like many other things around here) that he was not angry because of people disagreeing with his choice (which is ok for people to do, and was being done, imo & to memory, respectfully) he even came on line and said that was not the reason, it was the voice thread that made him angry, and I can understand why. Imo, that thread was not majorly respectful.
As far as I can understand it was the endorsement thraed that had the quoted words that R. pointed out in them (about the endorsement performance which many disliked etc). The voice thread was a more general thread about people's preferred Meat voice era.
In what way was the latter majorly disrespectful?
R., this is your forum, so you can do with it whatever you want. You make the rules. Anyway, the fact you or one of the mods deleted my post in which I said this (among other things) amazes me:
Do you know that his post [on Facebook] referred to anything he said on MLUKFC? [...] What I see at the moment is someone who tries to conciliatory, progressive and self-critical on Facebook. That's great, there aren't many people who would do something like that, kudos to him. [...] Anyway, it would be great if he clarified what exactly his current attitude to the fan club is. It would be fantastic and a nice touch if he had a message for us that is equally positive and uniting as the one he posted on Facebook.
I also said that he doesn't have to do that unless he wants to. If it's wrong to express one's hope that the stupid, tiresome, repetitive fighting stops and things go back to "normal", then I'm wrong, I guess. :shrug: I have the feeling that this will be handled like similar events before, thus things like this will happen again and again and again... This used to be a place for fans to meet, exchange ideas and have fun. It has turned into Meat's punching ball.
I give up. This is gonna be my last post - which will probably be deleted, too. I hope it won't but I guess my hope is in vain.
Maybe Meat (and some others) will regard this as a "success" - another "enemy" gone.
Well, if I was an "enemy", I would have left three years ago and never come back. I wouldn't have wasted time with participating in this discussion. I just wouldn't care about Meat Loaf and this forum. I would have gone away that day in 2009 when Meat called us "saboteurs" in a video on YouTube and started an exhausting war that lasted several days. Since then I've seen him call his own fans names on that many occasions that I've given up on counting them. Some ugly things happened behind the scenes, too. I've been patient and tolerant and always tried to be forgiving anyway - because Meat has also shown that he has a huge heart.
He invited forum members to a promo event at which they could listen to Hang Cool Teddy Bear. :up: He recently posted an awesome, very cordial message regarding two long-time fans' wedding. :-) How many artists would ever do that for their fans? Not many, I guess. But the next time I saw him say something on this forum, he was spitting venom in a way that even put some of his most loyal followers off. How can someone who is that kind be that nasty the next moment?
I don't think that Meat Loaf is a bad person, but I can't take his erratic behavior and rudeness anymore. Instead of adding something unique and informative to this place, his presence now kills interesting discussions and disrupts the community. I don't want to spend my rare spare time with the same daft arguments over and over again and I'm tired of seeing him come to this place not to communicate with us but to control what we say, insult us and tell us how much he dislikes us. As I said a couple of posts back, I don't have an issue with him getting upset but I have an issue with the way in which he gets upset. I don't like many things he said, yet I would never call him "jerk", "evil", tell him to "~~~~ himself" or "go to hell".
So this is time for me to say goodbye once and for all. I returned twice, there won't be third time. I'd like to thank the members of this forum (incl. admins and mods) for the interesting stuff I read on this board and for the fun it had to offer before every other thread descended to mud-wrestling.
Thank you, Meat. You provided brilliant entertainment, I made some great friends. I'll keep fond memories of the concerts I went to, especially Leipzig 1996 and Hamburg 2008. Will I buy another CD or go to another show - no. I'm grateful for the good times, I'll try to forget about the rather disappointing, saddening experiences of the last few years.
Farewell MLUKFC, farewell Meat. I wish you all the best.
Mr. Happy
10 Nov 2012, 13:42
In what way was the latter majorly disrespectful?
Could someone (who actually read the thread :bleh:) please clarify this? It'd help me, at least, understand where everyone is coming from. Because I really don't think that thread, which Meat says was the main provocation for insulting so many people, warranted such a response. Why was it so horrific? All I've read so far is that "it was bad and you shouldn't have said anything!"
Obviously that's an exaggeration, but that's what the criticisms of that thread have really amounted to so far :oops: I (and clearly lots of others) don't think it deserves that judgement, but lots more disagree with that. Why was it so disrespectful? No one was bashing anything or anyone, it had a massive disclaimer at the top, and...I don't get it. I really don't. Explain it to me :shrug:
It saddens me that something that, in my opinion, was as respectful and interesting as that conversation caused Meat to say what he did, which has led to upsetting and driving so many people away. Posts like Sarge's above me shouldn't be happening. I want to believe that it's justified, and that that thread really was the problem, because then we can look at not repeating that sort of stuff and improve everything...but I just don't see it :shrug:
lorenzoduke
10 Nov 2012, 14:11
It saddens me that something that, in my opinion, was as respectful and interesting as that conversation has led to upsetting and driving so many people away.
You know as well as I do that it's Meat's actions and words (or his 'experiment' as he apparently sees it) that have driven people away rather than the content of that thread. The idea of insulting people and calling them names to weed out the unmutuals is, in a word, revolting.
If Meat wants to limit his fanbase to the ones who are willing to listen to their fellow site members being degraded by him and who will then still stick around to kiss his ass anyway, count me out.
Meat ought to thank his lucky stars that this story hasn't been picked up outside of this website.
Meat voluntarily voiced his political opinions, made an endorsement and consequently his fans began discussing those opinions.
We buy Meat's albums and pay to see him in concert. Therefore we have observations on his singing and how it has varied over the years.
Meat's posts in response speak for themselves. Apparently it's fine and dandy for him to tell you to argue with your family until they vote for Romney, but if you have something to say in response to that, he can't hack it without resorting to a bunch of childish shouting and swearing. Stand up for your beliefs and if someone expresses an opposing view or questions on that, swear at them until they leave. Classy, Meat. Thanks for showing me what a backbone's for.
I can see the headline now:
'Veteran rock star slams fans, calls them evil, tells them to go to hell, tells them to go ~~~~ themselves, then says it was all a 'test'.
That's about the size of it, isn't it? I highly doubt many of his wider circle of fans would be impressed by that.
The more I think about this whole thing, the more disgusted I become.
Mr. Happy
10 Nov 2012, 14:24
You know as well as I do that it's Meat's actions and words (or his 'experiment' as he apparently sees it) that have driven people away rather than the content of that thread.
I do indeed, my post wasn't worded quite right. I fixed it :oops:
lorenzoduke
10 Nov 2012, 14:34
I do indeed, my post wasn't worded quite right. I fixed it :oops:
No worries, didn't mean it as a criticism ;)
Devil's Son
10 Nov 2012, 14:35
i liked sarge's post because it is exactly what's on my mind and how i feel.
@R.: ... We ask that this should be done in a respectful manner which should also be afforded to each and every forum member.
i guess we all know where this quote is from. this is how EVERYONE including meat loaf should behave. can he share his thoughts with us? - yes, of course. can he have a different opinion (political and anything else)? - yes, of course. can we debate about it? - yes, of course. can someone/he come to this place an insulting people without any consequences? - no!
if this is a reason to banish me, you'll go ahead.
@meat loaf: i guess it is time to change some things but i can't stand the way you are, now. too blunt? sorry.
to quote sarge: " Thank you, Meat. You provided brilliant entertainment, I made some great friends. I'll keep fond memories of the concerts I went to... Will I buy another CD or go to another show - no. I'm grateful for the good times, I'll try to forget about the rather disappointing, saddening experiences of the last few years.
Farewell MLUKFC, farewell Meat. I wish you all the best"
@my friends: we'll keep in touch
Bye!
(too blunt?)
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
Bye!
(too blunt?)
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
Nah, quite appropriate me thinks, just hope all these soap opera, long song goodbyes actually stick this time unlike the 3 day turnaround on the last one
Byesies
Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
I'm not sure why people have to keep posting their same view over and over .. Some have said they understand what pushed Meat to lose his temper, however regrettable that was; some find it unforgivable. We know who feels one way and who the other. I don't understand why it needs repeating ..
Rainer's posts on this thread are worth reading imo for insight into what led up to the explosion, as are his very clear instructions on what is not acceptable on the thread.
I'm just wondering how far and for how long some intend to push Rainer's patience :roll:
I've always thought that if people are going to leave then they should just go and not make such a big song and a dance about it but of course that is only my opinion. ;)
Since you're after a response though I'll just say bye then.
lorenzoduke
10 Nov 2012, 15:00
I'm not sure why people have to keep posting their same view over and over .. Some have said they understand what pushed Meat to lose his temper, however regrettable that was; some find it unforgivable. We know who feels one way and who the other. I don't understand why it needs repeating ..
Because some people find elements of the subject at hand worth further thought, and because some people asked questions that deserved a response. Personally I don't think that those kind of posts are the ones in this thread that are most offensive or worthy of criticism.
Don't worry, the way things are going it will be a lot quieter here soon enough.
TheDoode
10 Nov 2012, 15:08
I'm not sure why people have to keep posting their same view over and over ..
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing... :roll:
Personally I don't think that those kind of posts are the ones in this thread that are most offensive or worthy of criticism.
Nor do I. However, I really don't think much is served by continuously speculating. Only Meat could perhaps say with accuracy what culminated in him losing his temper. I have a lot of respect for your intellect Michael, and have to believe you can see that the thread he referred to was perhaps more the tip of an iceberg. As I said, Rainer's posts are worthy of consideration by those who haven't considered this.
As Lucy said a good while ago .. he messed up, but who of us hasn't? Personally I think it's time to either accept that and move on, forgiving or not depending on your hilltop; or to make a decision as to whether you can still be a fan or not, and go with that.
Meanwhile, having responded to your perfectly acceptable post, I shall ignore attempts from any others to point-score, flame and provoke. They are obvious however cleverly the coats they wear are stitched
robgomm
10 Nov 2012, 15:35
Offensive content removed.
lorenzoduke
10 Nov 2012, 15:42
As Lucy said a good while ago .. he messed up, but who of us hasn't?
Personally, at least as far as I'm aware, I've never willfully offended a large group of people - and if I'd caused the level of upset, sadness and hard feeling that Meat has, I'd damn well apologise.
To deliberately set out to upset and insult people could be put down to temper and a lack of self restraint. To leave those people to be upset and to fail to apologise shows genuine cruelty, a lack of compassion and likely leaves those people feeling that was your intent all along.
Agreed with the rest of your post though.
Robgomm: what you just did is really dis respectful (talking about respect on this forum)
Evil Ernie
10 Nov 2012, 16:10
Lol, I love drama on internet forums.
People make it sound like coming to a message board is actually worth a shit.
At best it's a mindless distraction. Get over yourself.
@ Lorenzoduke Yes, the scale is clearly different, I agree, because we're in different positions. I guess it comes down finally to how forgiving each of us is, but I agree with Rainer .. with all that's been said, and the time that has passed, I honestly think what you seek is unlikely to happen. I also think that the longer angry feelings on the part of people here continue to be expressed (however justified their anger and hurt might be) the less likely it will happen in response soon. Given time, I would hope to see Meat return, perhaps even say something in response .. but while this rages on? I really doubt it. We can make it easier or more hard ..
Caryl
lorenzoduke
10 Nov 2012, 16:27
Lol, I love drama on internet forums.
People make it sound like coming to a message board is actually worth a shit.
At best it's a mindless distraction. Get over yourself.
If conversation, exchange of ideas and opinions has no value to you, then yes, that is truly mindless.
@ Lorenzoduke Yes, the scale is clearly different, I agree, because we're in different positions. I guess it comes down finally to how forgiving each of us is, but I agree with Rainer .. with all that's been said, and the time that has passed, I honestly think what you seek is unlikely to happen. I also think that the longer angry feelings on the part of people here continue to be expressed (however justified their anger and hurt might be) the less likely it will happen in response soon. Given time, I would hope to see Meat return, perhaps even say something in response .. but while this rages on? I really doubt it. We can make it easier or more hard ..
Caryl
If Meat had wanted an apology to be well-taken and to be easy for himself, he would have offered one soon after his initial comments.
If he chooses to apologise I'd like to think it will be because he realises he was out of line and has caused a lot of upset and offense.
I don't think it's the responsibility of the people he offended to make things easier for him. He is, after all, the one who is seemingly content to greatly upset people, tell them to go to hell, tell them to go ~~~~ themselves, and then leave.
Yes, I'd find it hard to walk back into that room too - and I don't see why it shouldn't be either. Apologising always takes character and humility. I don't think anyone is trying to deliberately make it harder, however. In fact, I'd guess that most people have given up on the idea of any kind of apology being made and I'm inclined to feel the same. Those who have been hurt, he has left to be hurt. That's what disappoints me, personally.
renegadeangel
10 Nov 2012, 16:37
It wasn't actually 97%, that was an exaggeration - a devious yet genius ploy to find out who was a real fan and who isn't. A scheme...better, a master plan, if you will. If you're offended, you're just a part of the problem!
Remember? :twisted:
Your kidding right?
renegadeangel
10 Nov 2012, 16:41
Nor do I. However, I really don't think much is served by continuously speculating. Only Meat could perhaps say with accuracy what culminated in him losing his temper. I have a lot of respect for your intellect Michael, and have to believe you can see that the thread he referred to was perhaps more the tip of an iceberg. As I said, Rainer's posts are worthy of consideration by those who haven't considered this.
Dead on with this. Meat had a bad day with more on his mind than we have any right to know. Really none of our business.
As Lucy said a good while ago .. he messed up, but who of us hasn't? Personally I think it's time to either accept that and move on, forgiving or not depending on your hilltop; or to make a decision as to whether you can still be a fan or not, and go with that.
If anything it just goes to show how human we all really are. I do think that an apology would smooth things over but I'm personally not too hung up on that. I'm far more interested in what he intends to do regarding upcoming albums and tours.
Meanwhile, having responded to your perfectly acceptable post, I shall ignore attempts from any others to point-score, flame and provoke. They are obvious however cleverly the coats they wear are stitched
Mr. Happy
10 Nov 2012, 16:43
Your kidding right?
I was being a sarcastic prick. It was a little closer to outright trolling than I intended, but yes, I was kidding.
robgomm
10 Nov 2012, 16:58
Robgomm: what you just did is really dis respectful (talking about respect on this forum)
You're absolutely right. Funnily enough I was about to remove that post as I realised it was uncalled for. I received a fully deserved infraction for going too far so I have been fairly punished. Apologies to all offended.
We've been over this before (like many other things around here) that he was not angry because of people disagreeing with his choice (which is ok for people to do, and was being done, imo & to memory, respectfully) he even came on line and said that was not the reason, it was the voice thread that made him angry, and I can understand why.Yes, it was the voice thread.
As far as I can understand it was the endorsement thraed that had the quoted words that R. pointed out in them (about the endorsement performance which many disliked etc). The voice thread was a more general thread about people's preferred Meat voice era.
In what way was the latter majorly disrespectful?No, those words were picked from review threads, not the endorsement thread. In a nutshell: Top left corner says "Meat Loaf". Another thread about his voice, his unique selling point, which could be understood as "His voice was way better 20 years ago". Do you get the picture?
R., this is your forum, so you can do with it whatever you want. You make the rules. Anyway, the fact you or one of the mods deleted my post in which I said this (among other things) amazes me: ...Like so often, you are making an assumption. That's not a fact. And you're wrong.
Let me quote on of my recent posts: ... Additionally, the report function has been enhanced so that posts will get removed from public view once a certain number of reports has been reached. ...
This is what happened. Apparently your post was reported so often that it was removed from public view. It's still waiting for approvel in the moderation queue.
TheDoode
10 Nov 2012, 17:16
Another thread about his voice, his unique selling point, which could be understood as "His voice was way better 20 years ago". Do you get the picture?
Yeah, but it was. :twisted:
Okay, seriously then, in my opinion I liked it more than I do his current vocals - but if it's a sensitive issue then I guess there should be an official 'no discussing Meat Loaf's Voice' thread that's locked from the first post, or you could even put it in the rules if you like.
But it's worth keeping in mind that for every area that gets banned from discussion, this 'discussion forum' becomes more of a temple to worship at.
We could call it a Fan Club
In a nutshell: Top left corner says "Meat Loaf". Another thread about his voice, his unique selling point, which could be understood as "His voice was way better 20 years ago". Do you get the picture?
renegadeangel
10 Nov 2012, 17:27
I was being a sarcastic prick. It was a little closer to outright trolling than I intended, but yes, I was kidding.
you had me there
TheDoode
10 Nov 2012, 17:28
We could call it a Fan Club
We could call it an oppressive regime if you like. I'm not saying that it IS one, but if all you want to do is non-objectively praise and stamp out opinions that do not match up to yours, then maybe the boards shouldn't exist at all, and MLUKFC should become a news page instead :-P
Maybe everyone could pay heed to Rainer's guidance and advice. He does not run this forum oppressively, far from it imo, but draws a few lines in the sand for the reasons he's given
The Flying Mouse
10 Nov 2012, 20:47
It's a discussion forum, and if it's going to stay active and have users engaged in discussion, silence by way of claiming ownership isn't going to go down that well. If you create something within the public domain dedicated to a popular artist, you have to accept that they're going to want to use it for debate. I'm glad that R set this site up in the first place, but I do think that on occasion he can come across as being a bit dictatorial.
:twisted: But ownership gives you certain rights, no?
R put this place together. He chose his team, and with our consultation (which, being a remarkably rational human being, I hardly think he needs) makes the rules for the place.
Let's get it straight, this place is open to the public free of charge, but if R decided tomorrow that you could only log into this place if you were wearing a pair of yellow fishing waders and one of those caps that holds a couple of cans of beer, he would be well within his right to do that.
The rules of the forum are in place to promote a forum where fans can discuss Meat's work and projects in an atmosphere that is respectful to Meat, to the forum staff, and to each other.
If certain content is felt to be detrimental to a thread being respectful or on topic, it's the privilege of the web master to act as they think best.
If you want a forum where you can say exactly what you want exactly when you want to say it, there's a whole lotta web out there for you to build one.
I think some bans would be entirely appropriate and are actually long overdue, so in that respect R and the mods have been TOO fair to some people.
Hey, check this out, I wrote a poem for ya, it goes something like this :mrgreen:
For every forum member
a different point of view
You think that I should ban some
Some think I should ban you :bleh:
She thinks that you're much too positive
He thinks you show to much doubt
But it's the mods who always get ~~~~~~ed
When Meat begins to shout :bicker:
So have a little patience
With others on this forum
Learn to respect each other
And show some goddam decorum :p
Everybody has their own idea of what should be acceptable on this forum :wink:
I think the question then becomes 'where's the middle ground?' I know that I don't come here to offend and provoke Meat Loaf, but I also know I don't come here to gush over everything he says or does. If I have an interest in part of his performance or technique (or a song, or a record, or a video), I want to talk about that and see what other people think. Sometimes I want to hear from the other side of the opinion so I can adjust my own views to things I might not have been aware of or thought about before. I don't come to this site to cause the owner any offense, and I don't come here to intentionally offend other users.
As R said, we've been looking for that middle ground for the last 10 years.
I thought I found it once, but apparently it was Belgium :bleh:
Where Meat is concerned, I think it's always worth remembering that everything said on the forum is personal to him.
To use a metephore i've used before, imagine a baker looking online and finding a forum dedicated to scrutinizing every loaf he's ever made?
How would you react to the news the rolls you baked on Thursday were shite?
I guess these are fairly unprecedented times.
It's not exactly unprecedented to have Meat lose his rag on the forum, but i'll be ~~~~~~ed if it's getting easier.
(Note on this subject, Meat last said something on this thread on page 4/5, we're now on page 18 ).
I've always thought that if people are going to leave then they should just go and not make such a big song and a dance about it but of course that is only my opinion. ;)
Could it be because the forum actually means something to them? :bleh:
Some folks have been comming here a lot of years. They feel attached. It's natural that when somebody decides to leave it's an emotional time for them. I, for one, have no problem with people posting their goodbyes if they so choose. And should they come back I never greet they with messages like "oh you're back, I thought you'd left :roll: ".
Lol, I love drama on internet forums.
People make it sound like coming to a message board is actually worth a shit.
At best it's a mindless distraction. Get over yourself.
Tell that to the two staff members (me and Andy) who met their wives through the fan community, another staff member who has a beautiful baby girl with another of our members, and other such relationships that have sprung from mlukfc :wink:
This is a community, and IMHO it's certainly worth much more than a shit. :yep:
LuuuuvMeat
10 Nov 2012, 20:59
:twisted: But ownership gives you certain rights, no?
R put this place together. He chose his team, and with our consultation (which, being a remarkably rational human being, I hardly think he needs) makes the rules for the place.
Let's get it straight, this place is open to the public free of charge, but if R decided tomorrow that you could only log into this place if you were wearing a pair of yellow fishing waders and one of those caps that holds a couple of cans of beer, he would be well within his right to do that.
The rules of the forum are in place to promote a forum where fans can discuss Meat's work and projects in an atmosphere that is respectful to Meat, to the forum staff, and to each other.
If certain content is felt to be detrimental to a thread being respectful or on topic, it's the privilege of the web master to act as they think best.
If you want a forum where you can say exactly what you want exactly when you want to say it, there's a whole lotta web out there for you to build one.
Hey, check this out, I wrote a poem for ya, it goes something like this :mrgreen:
For every forum member
a different point of view
You think that I should ban some
Some think I should ban you :bleh:
She thinks that you're much too positive
He thinks you show to much doubt
But it's the mods who always get ~~~~~~ed
When Meat begins to shout :bicker:
So have a little patience
With others on this forum
Learn to respect each other
And show some goddam decorum :p
Everybody has their own idea of what should be acceptable on this forum :wink:
As R said, we've been looking for that middle ground for the last 10 years.
I thought I found it once, but apparently it was Belgium :bleh:
Where Meat is concerned, I think it's always worth remembering that everything said on the forum is personal to him.
To use a metephore i've used before, imagine a baker looking online and finding a forum dedicated to scrutinizing every loaf he's ever made?
How would you react to the news the rolls you baked on Thursday were shite?
It's not exactly unprecedented to have Meat lose his rag on the forum, but i'll be ~~~~~~ed if it's getting easier.
(Note on this subject, Meat last said something on this thread on page 4/5, we're now on page 18 ).
Could it be because the forum actually means something to them? :bleh:
Some folks have been comming here a lot of years. They feel attached. It's natural that when somebody decides to leave it's an emotional time for them. I, for one, have no problem with people posting their goodbyes if they so choose. And should they come back I never greet they with messages like "oh you're back, I thought you'd left :roll: ".
Tell that to the two staff members (me and Andy) who met their wives through the fan community, another staff member who has a beautiful baby girl with another of our members, and other such relationships that have sprung from mlukfc :wink:
This is a community, and IMHO it's certainly worth much more than a shit. :yep:
I just spit out my coffee laughing with that poem. Job well done!:D
The Flying Mouse
10 Nov 2012, 21:12
I just spit out my coffee laughing with that poem. Job well done!:D
:twisted: Thank you, I do my best :mrgreen:
One thing I forgot to post about...........
The subject of Meat's apology.
I'm afraid i've got to again agree with R on this.
If it were coming, I think it would have been here by now.
I know Meat posted an apology on facebook, but he said nothing on facebook (that I saw) that was anywhere near as abusive what he posted here.
So, with that in mind, perhaps (i'm theorising here folks) Meat is a little embarrased to visit the forum right now because of his outburst?
If i'd have said what Meat has said, I know i'd be embarrased by my actions.
I'd have liked to see him apologise to the members here because I know how many feelings were hurt here, and I think it would have gone a long way to winning back peoples respect, but i've seen his facebook page, and I believe him to be sincerley sorry for his actions.
We can either take his facebook apology for what it is, or we can hold the fact he didn't post it here against him.
Me? I'll take the apology.
Julie in the rv mirror
10 Nov 2012, 22:17
The subject of Meat's apology.
I'm afraid i've got to again agree with R on this.
If it were coming, I think it would have been here by now.
I know Meat posted an apology on facebook, but he said nothing on facebook (that I saw) that was anywhere near as abusive what he posted here.
So, with that in mind, perhaps (i'm theorising here folks) Meat is a little embarrased to visit the forum right now because of his outburst?
If i'd have said what Meat has said, I know i'd be embarrased by my actions.
I'd have liked to see him apologise to the members here because I know how many feelings were hurt here, and I think it would have gone a long way to winning back peoples respect, but i've seen his facebook page, and I believe him to be sincerley sorry for his actions.
We can either take his facebook apology for what it is, or we can hold the fact he didn't post it here against him.
Me? I'll take the apology.
According to the rules of the forum, we're not allowed to bring issues posted on another site back here, which is fair, IMO. For the same reason, however, I don't think an apology on Facebook is acceptable for comments that were made here- sorry. Besides, some people here might not use Facebook.
I can understand if Meat is embarrassed, but that's no excuse not to apologize, IMO. I think he would have earned many people's respect if he had done so.
As someone said previously, how would Meat feel if this incident were made known to the general public? The cynic in me thinks that maybe he apologized on Facebook because it's much more "public" than this place. If Meat truly considers the people on this site his "friends", then all the more reason he should say something here.
:twisted:
I know Meat posted an apology on facebook, but he said nothing on facebook (that I saw) that was anywhere near as abusive what he posted here.
So, with that in mind, perhaps (i'm theorising here folks) Meat is a little embarrased to visit the forum right now because of his outburst?
If i'd have said what Meat has said, I know i'd be embarrased by my actions.
Not sure I agree with this theory, Mouse. If Meat felt that bad about what he'd said, I think he would have been back here to apologise by now. Personally, going by the number of times he has lost his temper on here in recent times, I get the impression that he is just totally fed up with this place. It's a shame, considering that (imo) the 97% represents the positive fans, not the negative ones. Having said this, I hope that it is you who are right and me who is wrong!
The Flying Mouse
10 Nov 2012, 22:41
According to the rules of the forum, we're not allowed to bring issues posted on another site back here, which is fair, IMO.
:twisted: An interesting point.
I know we don't allow arguments to be brought here from other sites, but an apology, something that might start to heal some wounds, that's not a bad thing.
For the same reason, however, I don't think an apology on Facebook is acceptable for comments that were made here- sorry. Besides, some people here might not use Facebook.
I completley respect and understand your position on this. :up:
Enough to be sympathetic to your point of view.
What I will say is that I believe what it is for every fan to decide for his/her self what is acceptable concerning Meat's apology.
I'm certainly not going to tell anybody to "get over it".
It was here that Meat vented with the most abusive terms, and if you feel that he should apologise here, I feel you are fully justified in expecting that.
If you choose not to forgive him until he does, that is also your choice, and I respect that.
Weather you get that is another matter.
For me, personally, I see that he's sorry, I believe it to be heartfelt, so I just want to get over this horrid and distastful incident and break on through to the other side.
I I think he would have earned many people's respect if he had done so.
Agreed 100% :up:
As someone said previously, how would Meat feel if this incident were made known to the general public? The cynic in me thinks that maybe he apologized on Facebook because it's much more "public" than this place. If Meat truly considers the people on this site his "friends", then all the more reason he should say something here.
I imagine he'd feel pretty damn ashamed.
Facebook might be more public, but I feel that Meat is more himself here. On facebook it's more statements than anything else. Here he talks rather than makes statements (for better or worse).
That being the case, a formal apology is what i'd expect to see on Meat's facebook page.
Here, I don't know. I've already guessed that it's because he feels so bad over what happened he's keeping away for the moment.
He never said anything on facebook like the things he said here so it's not so embarrasing for him to go to.
But again, that's just a theory :shrug:
The Flying Mouse
10 Nov 2012, 22:46
Not sure I agree with this theory, Mouse. If Meat felt that bad about what he'd said, I think he would have been back here to apologise by now. Personally, going by the number of times he has lost his temper on here in recent times, I get the impression that he is just totally fed up with this place. It's a shame, considering that (imo) the 97% represents the positive fans, not the negative ones. Having said this, I hope that it is you who are right and me who is wrong!
:twisted: You might well be right Lisa.
He might have decided to leave the forum as more trouble than it's worth.
Unless Meat himself tells us why he hasn't been here, we have no idea why he hasn't visited the forum or posted an apology here.
What i've said is what I believe may be the case.
It's anyones guess.
lorenzoduke
10 Nov 2012, 23:12
Me? I'll take the apology.
I'll take the apology when he has the balls to make one to the people he was most offensive to.
Meat didn't just make a general point about dissenters on Facebook, he made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here - later passed off as some sort of bizarre experiment (in one of the more colourful examples of backpedalling that I've seen this side of UK politics).
Your theory that he's too embarrassed to show his face here basically makes the point that he's a coward. I'd like to think otherwise, but I've yet to be proven right and you've yet to be proven wrong.
He might have decided to leave the forum as more trouble than it's worth.
Well it would be a hell of an ironic thing for him to make that decision immediately after telling 97% of the membership to go ~~~~ itself.
Meat .... made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here [QUOTE]
That's your assumption Michael. You're entitled to make one, but my take would be very different, as I believe I've explained early on, and won't repeat it again because of what that would provoke. So I disagree.
[QUOTE]- later passed off as some sort of bizarre experiment (in one of the more colourful examples of backpedalling that I've seen this side of UK politics).
I'd agree this seemed to be the case, over something he regretted imo.
I can't agree with your final comments. I judge a man on all I know rather than one incident.
Caryl
lorenzoduke
10 Nov 2012, 23:44
[QUOTE=lorenzoduke;580862]
Meat .... made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here [QUOTE]
That's your assumption Michael. You're entitled to make one, but my take would be very different, as I believe I've explained early on, and won't repeat it again because of what that would provoke. So I disagree.
I would have thought that Meat came here specifically to make that post was beyond debate. Perhaps I misunderstand what you're getting at there?
I'd agree this seemed to be the case, over something he regretted imo.
I can't agree with your final comments. I judge a man on all I know rather than one incident.
Caryl
I judge a man on his ability to hold his hands up and accept responsibility for his actions rather than trying to gloss over them with blatant B.S. that only causes more offense. That, as the saying goes, is adding insult to injury.
When I think of the amount of times I and many others here have stood up for Meat, rallied around him (the lambasting he took in Australia strikes me as a relevant and recent example) and been as supportive as anyone could expect a fanbase to be....to my mind, he's treating us the way the Australian press treat him. Belligerent, abusive, unrepentant and full of unwarranted bile and nastiness. Refusing to see the good and acting with a petty vendetta.
People here have had their criticisms of Meat - perhaps to excess at times, but its only because music, singing etc. is subjective and everyone has their own idea of Meat's strengths and weaknesses as a performer, and only consider these things to such a degree because they maybe only at one time or another, or perhaps always, have loved his work.
What I have never seen here is anyone be as vicious or deliberately hurtful to Meat or any other member as he was in this thread. If he doesn't feel sufficient remorse to take 5 minutes to apologise, he's not the guy I've thought he was all these years. Admittedly, he never asked to be anyone's hero, and I've learnt a lesson about having one.
Monstro
10 Nov 2012, 23:51
If there's an apology, we move on.
If there's no apology, we move on.
End result, we move on.
My support has always been given unconditionally, and like my understanding and forgiveness, still is.
If there's an apology, we move on.
If there's no apology, we move on.
End result, we move on.
I agree.
lorenzoduke
11 Nov 2012, 00:02
My support has always been given unconditionally, and like my understanding and forgiveness, still is.
Support that's given unconditionally gives people a free-pass on any kind of behaviour and no reason to reconsider ones actions.
I agree though, we move on, I've said all I have to say and appreciate anyone who let me bend their ear.
loaferman61
11 Nov 2012, 00:32
According to the rules of the forum, we're not allowed to bring issues posted on another site back here, which is fair, IMO. For the same reason, however, I don't think an apology on Facebook is acceptable for comments that were made here- sorry. Besides, some people here might not use Facebook.
I can understand if Meat is embarrassed, but that's no excuse not to apologize, IMO. I think he would have earned many people's respect if he had done so.
As someone said previously, how would Meat feel if this incident were made known to the general public? The cynic in me thinks that maybe he apologized on Facebook because it's much more "public" than this place. If Meat truly considers the people on this site his "friends", then all the more reason he should say something here.
I don't use Facebook, I use this site. If you offended people on one site and apologized on another site... I don't get that.
loaferman61
11 Nov 2012, 00:36
[QUOTE=CarylB;580863][QUOTE=lorenzoduke;580862]
Meat .... made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here
I would have thought that Meat came here specifically to make that post was beyond debate. Perhaps I misunderstand what you're getting at there?
I judge a man on his ability to hold his hands up and accept responsibility for his actions rather than trying to gloss over them with blatant B.S. that only causes more offense. That, as the saying goes, is adding insult to injury.
When I think of the amount of times I and many others here have stood up for Meat, rallied around him (the lambasting he took in Australia strikes me as a relevant and recent example) and been as supportive as anyone could expect a fanbase to be....to my mind, he's treating us the way the Australian press treat him. Belligerent, abusive, unrepentant and full of unwarranted bile and nastiness. Refusing to see the good and acting with a petty vendetta.
People here have had their criticisms of Meat - perhaps to excess at times, but its only because music, singing etc. is subjective and everyone has their own idea of Meat's strengths and weaknesses as a performer, and only consider these things to such a degree because they maybe only at one time or another, or perhaps always, have loved his work.
What I have never seen here is anyone be as vicious or deliberately hurtful to Meat or any other member as he was in this thread. If he doesn't feel sufficient remorse to take 5 minutes to apologise, he's not the guy I've thought he was all these years. Admittedly, he never asked to be anyone's hero, and I've learnt a lesson about having one.
:cheers:
Well, this whole thing has left me feeling confused! I first became a fan of Meat when I was 17 years old (27 years ago). He has been a big part of my life ever since. I have always loved the man, as well as the music. My Facebook page is more about Meat than it is about anything else. I get a lot of stick from friends and family, who accuse me of being 'obsessed' with the man (which, I hasten to add, I am not!) If anyone ever has a bad word to say about him, I am right back at them in his defense. I am always singing his praises, telling people what a great guy he is. I have bought every CD and DVD. I have been to at least one show on every tour and I have queued for hours at a CD signing.
One thing that I have never done is have a M&G, because I have never been able to justify spending that kind of money for the privilege. Since Meat has informed us that next year will be the last UK tour, I was hoping to finally have my M&G, as it will be the last chance I get (although I still can't really afford it!).
Now I don't know what to do because, like so many others here, I am feeling somewhat disillusioned. After some of the things that Meat has said on here, I find myself questioning if the man who I have adored for the last 27 years is the person who I thought he was.
Of course I understand that he is human, just like everyone else. We are all guilty of losing our temper at times and saying things in the heat of the moment, which we later regret. But it's the fact that Meat has not come back here and apologised that I just cannot understand.
I also appreciate that this has probably been brewing for quite some time. I read most of the posts on here and I see a handful of people who (to me) seem intent on stirring things up and who's posts always seem to highlight the negative. I understand why Meat gets hurt by this. But, these people are in the minority. The majority of the people here are in Meat's corner. His last comments pretty much tarred us all with the same brush and, to me, that was unfair and uncalled for.
Support that's given unconditionally gives people a free-pass on any kind of behaviour and no reason to reconsider ones actions.
Not necessarily. You can still convey that you are upset by something, while supporting someone. Usually though, that is done in the background, not everyone sees it.
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chairboys
11 Nov 2012, 18:21
Unless Meat himself tells us why he hasn't been here, we have no idea why he hasn't visited the forum or posted an apology here.
Doctor: "Meat, I need you to rest and do absolutely nothing for a week following your op. Got it?"
Meat: " Oh Doctor. Thank you very very much. Thank you."
loaferman61
11 Nov 2012, 23:00
Well, this whole thing has left me feeling confused! I first became a fan of Meat when I was 17 years old (27 years ago). He has been a big part of my life ever since. I have always loved the man, as well as the music. My Facebook page is more about Meat than it is about anything else. I get a lot of stick from friends and family, who accuse me of being 'obsessed' with the man (which, I hasten to add, I am not!) If anyone ever has a bad word to say about him, I am right back at them in his defense. I am always singing his praises, telling people what a great guy he is. I have bought every CD and DVD. I have been to at least one show on every tour and I have queued for hours at a CD signing.
One thing that I have never done is have a M&G, because I have never been able to justify spending that kind of money for the privilege. Since Meat has informed us that next year will be the last UK tour, I was hoping to finally have my M&G, as it will be the last chance I get (although I still can't really afford it!).
Now I don't know what to do because, like so many others here, I am feeling somewhat disillusioned. After some of the things that Meat has said on here, I find myself questioning if the man who I have adored for the last 27 years is the person who I thought he was.
Of course I understand that he is human, just like everyone else. We are all guilty of losing our temper at times and saying things in the heat of the moment, which we later regret. But it's the fact that Meat has not come back here and apologised that I just cannot understand.
I also appreciate that this has probably been brewing for quite some time. I read most of the posts on here and I see a handful of people who (to me) seem intent on stirring things up and who's posts always seem to highlight the negative. I understand why Meat gets hurt by this. But, these people are in the minority. The majority of the people here are in Meat's corner. His last comments pretty much tarred us all with the same brush and, to me, that was unfair and uncalled for.
I will probably catch stick for this, but really do not care. Years ago pre-internet, I had communication via letters (snail mail) with someone who worked for Meat. Their name appears in the credits of one of his videos. When they lost their job they wrote me a pretty long letter telling me what they termed as the truth. I chalked it up to someone who had lost their job and was upset, although they were very calm and matter-of-fact about it. Telling me this pre-internet was not going to hurt Meat in any way. I say all this to get back to the topic everything said in that letter has a lot more credence based off of many of Meat's posts.
I visit here periodically but post rarely! I always have been and remain a huge Meat fan but, as with so many of you, was disappointed to read what Meat wrote here! I believe there is time to cool down before posting something in anger but that's just me and that's what I do.. too many harsh words are written in the heat of the moment! However for me it's time to forgive and forget and realise that in the scheme of things this is really nothing big! I haven't read every single post because I haven't had time so this may be a simplistic view of what's gone on here but it's my view... not to inflame... not to justify... just to say what's done is done... it's REALLY REALLY REALLY time to move on... or for me at least! :-D
anotherday
12 Nov 2012, 01:59
I visit here periodically but post rarely! I always have been and remain a huge Meat fan but, as with so many of you, was disappointed to read what Meat wrote here! I believe there is time to cool down before posting something in anger but that's just me and that's what I do.. too many harsh words are written in the heat of the moment! However for me it's time to forgive and forget and realise that in the scheme of things this is really nothing big! I haven't read every single post because I haven't had time so this may be a simplistic view of what's gone on here but it's my view... not to inflame... not to justify... just to say what's done is done... it's REALLY REALLY REALLY time to move on... or for me at least! :-D
Great post.
I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)
Not necessarily. You can still convey that you are upset by something, while supporting someone. Usually though, that is done in the background, not everyone sees it.
I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)
Yes :-) For me it means it's not conditional on the person you support having to do everything you might hope, want or expect, or meeting standards you set. Nor as you say, does it mean there's an expectation that the other person's actions will be geared to it. And as Mel said, conveying you are upset by something is generally done in the background, not publicly.
Caryl
I live in Philadelphia PA USA land that I love... Today our football hometeam, the Eagles... lost to Dallas Cowboys... and Meat Loaf is on FB ... "hmmm" ing about it... I take this as a snigger and a slap ... and nearly all I have let in life is my football team... AND football... to enjoy and our team's not doing well... and I need a snigger ??? ... ummm... NO !!! ....
Carry on with whatever y'all are still bashing him about... gawd ...
I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)
Personally I think its these people that we do support unconditionally that often feel he worst about their actions when they do the wrong thing.
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lorenzoduke
12 Nov 2012, 12:59
I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)
So, to take some completely separate examples, you don't think that the partners, friends and family of an alcoholic/drug addict giving unconditional support would make that person less likely to feel the need to change if they didn't face any consequences for their behaviour?
You don't think that in the cases of abusive relationships, if a partner tolerates their abuse and continues to be supportive, it will continue?
And to bring us back to Earth, you don't think if you continue to offer unconditional support to someone who talks to you/your fellow board members like they're a piece of crap on his shoe, that he'll likely do it again?
'"Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that!'
So you think that someone who tells a group of people to go to hell and go ~~~~ themselves doesn't care about what reaction he gets?
lorenzoduke
12 Nov 2012, 13:16
If you remember Meat even basically said he was waiting to see what reaction he would get, so that theory falls down a bit flat.
Unconditional support sounds a lot like blind faith to me. 'Treat me like crap again and again and I'll still smile and tell you how wonderful you are'.
No thanks, that's not for me.
If you remember Meat even basically said he was waiting to see what reaction he would get, so that theory falls down a bit flat.
Unconditional support sounds a lot like blind faith to me. 'Treat me like crap again and again and I'll still smile and tell you how wonderful you are'.
No thanks, that's not for me.
I'll tell you now, I am certainly not blind. That's not for you? That's fine. Whatever. Please, do continue with the circles.
It's like apples and oranges those examples....
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loaferman61
12 Nov 2012, 14:34
If you remember Meat even basically said he was waiting to see what reaction he would get, so that theory falls down a bit flat.
Unconditional support sounds a lot like blind faith to me. 'Treat me like crap again and again and I'll still smile and tell you how wonderful you are'.
No thanks, that's not for me.
I think my feelings on Meat are now what they pretty much should be. As a consumer who buys a product because he likes it. Sad to boil it down to this, but it is what it is. However since he has directly told us not to buy his stuff now, I don't even know if that still applies.
My final thoughts on this topic.
More than ever, on this board, we've been able to continue a heated argument/discussion with eachother and Meat Loaf. And boy did we. But did it bring us something new?
For starters we have seen what the majority of this place always knew. There are people who will defend Meat Loaf unconditionately, we have people who will argue Meat loaf unconditionately, we have people that are in the middle. So there nothing much changed. Although I've seen some people move a bit more to the middle and some people who moved a little away from the middle. At least that's been a small change.
Then we have Meat Loaf himself. We all know that Meat can get angry/upset. It isn't the first time he did so. It's a contrast to the Meat Loaf we know from M&G, concerts and TV. That is a caring, suporting man with a big Heart. And to me both representations show the real Meat Loaf.
People who know me personally know that I'm carring and loving but like so many others I can get pretty mad or pissed off. It's a human thing. So denying Meat has two sides also is b*llshit. He has and we've seen it.
Which brings us to this topic. Meat's last outburst. Although I don't mind an outburst by any of us (Meat included) I thought this was exceptional. In the very first post Meat exploded like never before and said things that shocked a huge deal of people over here. Me included.
The subject of this topic consists two things. The endorsement and the endless discussion on Meat's vocal quality. And although a big part of the discussion mentioned politics it seemed to me Meat's outburst was for a larger part on the voice thing. A topic that (imo) wasn't rude but maybe a bit too confronting (especially for Meat Loaf at the time).
Being a fan of someone who makes a living out of singing I don't think it's that odd we discuss such matters. Question is, are we too negative on Meat Loaf's performances? Some of you -who still read my posts- will say YES! Absolutely! and others will disagree. I had a small discussion with R. in this thread and he tried to explain Meat's post by saying we've been too negative for too long (7 years, R. said). From my stand of view I disagree, as I told R.
I think this place has a huge diverse fanbase and I've seen a load of people who are only positive about anything Meat Loaf does. Including his voice. On the other hand I see people who disagre and find that Meat some times performe a lot better than other times. Or think Meat performance was worse than they are used to. And they also have their voices heard.
R. used key words to show how negative some of the people here have been. Then again I can make a same statement with all the loving remarks. Personally I think it's very balanced. So there is a next question.
As this is a fanboard, aren't we obligied to the artist to outshine the positive and keep the negative to a maximum low?
A fair question that will also get different answers and views. But one of which Meat's opinion is very clear. He stated it dozens of times that he doesn't feel the love here that a fanboard should give. Personally I dismissed this by saying that Meat focusses on the negative posts and hardly answers the positive ones. But isn't that the easy way out? Shouldn't this, of any place, be a safe haven for Meat? and is it?
Well I can answer that last question easily. No this isn't a safe haven. There are too many people who care for their honest opinion instead of a suportive opinion. Me included. That doesn't mean that I am right. But it also doesn't mean that I am wrong either, For me it means the boundries are too gray.
If R. wants this to be Meat's safe haven he can change the house rules. It's R.'s place and we are guests but at the moment the house rules allow a fair discussion which can lead to critical remarks towards the artist. Within the rules of MLUKFC the people who have their voices heard in both positive and critical ways, are being allowed to do so. And Meat Loaf knows he can expect two views. Again I'm not saying what is the best solution but according to current house rules this is what to be expected if a fan base is so diverse.
BTW I understand how difficult this must be for R. I don't think he wants to have an addoration board and I guess he just hopes that the fans who come here are more suportive to Meat -the singer, actor and person- as they are on some occasions. R. situation is tough because either way he will lose the charactirzation of this forum. To be honest I think it's impossible to achieve a safe haven if you allow free speech. And the fans here are very vocal so I doubt this board will ease down on Meat Loaf the way some of the people here hope for. It's the bitter reality.
All this said, do I understand Meat Loaf's outbursts? YES. Although, as I stated somewhere in this thopic before, I would come here with a different view and thought as Meat Loaf does. But still I understand his emotions very well. Will it change? Unless R. changes the rules, NO. And we all know in our Hearts it won't.
That brings me close to my conclusion of this very long post: Meat's latest outburst and the apologies.
I think that Meat's words to his fans here are way out of line. I understand anger but this was written in an act of rage. That is how I see it. And Meat managed to hurt some of his loyal fans with those words. Meat crossed a border to a fair amount of people. And we've seen that in some replies by people, including mods, who were absolutely shocked by the hatred in those words.
But I said that these words were likely to be written in an act of rage. And people, any people lose sense of reality during a moment like that. I was more bothered by the excuse Meat Loaf offered first. It was all an act to filter out the real fans from the phoneys. I never bought that story. And many here also didn't.
Of course Meat hasn't been back but wrote a great excuse message on his FB page. It seems to me that this was a well meant excuse and he truely feels bad about the harsh things he said. I believe that excuse and I accept that excuse. And I even think Meat apologized for what he said on here.
Unfortunately Meat never posted his apologie here. I really think it would have meant a lot for some people who were shocked. It's guessing why Meat hasn't done so and I hope he will for at least the M&G and 97% remark. However with the long and honest excuse on FB I can live. So for me the matter is over.
Which results in my view on this topic. People know me to be the first to act in an argument and say my beliefs. I don't back down and I'm not the person to be easily intimidated by others. I stand by what I say.
Well in this topic, even I think all is said. Although I still see good argument, my feeling is the topic is dragging now and we come up with subjects to keep it going. My personal view is that we can leave it as it is. Matters will never be resolved in the way all parties hope and basically some of us here are just waiting if Meat Loaf is going to say something more about it. Deep in ourselves we all know that won't happen. Even if Meat is thinking about making an apologie here, he will do so in a new topic. So for me the debate topic is done. And for once I won't hold it again anyone if this gets locked. Which, coming from me, really says a lot.
In the end I have seen heated, well argumented and less reasonable posts in here. And thanks to the moderators on this board we've seen it for a long time now. I respect that a lot.
So I just want to thank the people who moderated this hot flaming topic. Especially FlyingMouse who, in my opinion, did an incredible job on this thread. People had the oportunity to have their say and the topic (maybe dragging in the end) never got a real chance to derail.
Yest the subject was sensitive and confronting, but it felt honest. And FlyingMouse and co, thank you for giving us all a chance to participate in that. I appreciate the oportunity to speak my mind a lot.
To R. I really hope you find a middle way to make this the board you invisioned. It won't be easy (if not impossible) to do so. But I thank you for giving Meat and us, the other guests a house where we can come together.
I will continue this board outside this topic. We have a new CD a new concert tour and a US release of the current DVD coming out. Meat is having surgery. So there is a lot to talk about folks ;)
Bubbles
12 Nov 2012, 15:32
My final thoughts on this topic. (...)
Brilliant post :pray:
I think that's a very fair post Adje. To me this stood out:
it seemed to me Meat's outburst was for a larger part on the voice thing. A topic that (imo) wasn't rude but maybe a bit too confronting (especially for Meat Loaf at the time).
To me the disproportional reaction was because of the weight of many things Meat had on his shoulders at the time, from the fallout following his endorsement to the worry about what impact the storm would have on his ability to deliver the last shows of the tour, and the disappointment if they had to be cancelled. I suspect the prospect of the surgery he has to face must have been like a spectre behind his shoulders for some time too. Most of this not down to us, but I think friends understand that. I do.
You said also that we all know that Meat can get angry/upset, and that when he does it's in stark contrast to the man we know from M&G, concerts and TV. Yes, he is a caring, kind, and usually gracious man with a big heart. You said both representations are of the real man. I agree; I have just found the latter has outweighed the former by a huge margin for many, many years. That's why although I don't condone what he posted, I understood something of the cause, didn't take it personally, forgave, and would agree it's time to put it behind us.
Caryl
For once, I may have found something to agree with you on Adje...
I'm quite happy for a lock on this too, and leave it at that.
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
I think deep down meat knows 1987 - 1993 voice was just sooo good, he may feel comfortable being compared to that and thats what drove him :shrug:
the guys only human
lorenzoduke
12 Nov 2012, 17:12
It's like apples and oranges those examples....
I was making a point, as I'm certain you are well aware, that unconditional support isn't always in a person's best interest. That sometimes losing someone's support is a way of realising that the way they have treated someone is unacceptable and has gone too far.
I wasn't comparing what Meat Loaf did to the other things. That was also made clear in my post.
the guys only human
His willingness to wear his heart on his sleeve is a big part of what many love/loved about him, I believe. I also believe that had an apology being made, those who have left or had their feelings hurt would have accepted it and this forum wouldn't have lost some great members.
razorball2002
12 Nov 2012, 18:55
Yes human. But can't he stay HUMBLE? I mean, come on!! Not ONE SINGLE negative comment about his voice on the VOICE thread! Just people comparing his voice CHANGES during his career. Go to expectingrain, the Bob Dylan site.OK not a "fan club", but a site dedicated to fans on the internet. Dylan had how many voices during his career? People talk about that. People prefer 60s voice, other 90s voice, some hate 2000s voice, some think it's more like tom waits and prefer it and so on..... It's a conversation topic, a debate about something beautiful, something essential at least to me: music. If ML doesn't like us talking about his voice, if this is such a critical topic for him , ok be it fine, but why come here and insult his fans? Are artists with a capital A supposed to do that? THAT is a question, and I hope it gets people thinking about it. Why did he send me a PM of insults when I said that I thought his voice was lower based from a youtube. OK you can disagree with me, sayin'you can't base your argument from a youtube, the board tape sounds fine and so on. But why attack with insults (jerk, fxxxx off and so on) when the topics are not made to insult the man? Saying that to me, I spent half of my life listening to that guy on a weekly basis, even had a ML Museum at my home when i was a teenager!!
Even on a fan forum I HOPE we can still make some objective, sometimes critical comments, or are we in a Teletubies bad trip here?
Also then why go to interviews and tell the world that people insult other people for free on the internet, and then go on and do the same? I'm not sure MLs attitude combines well with humility. Sad for a 65 year old guy.
olblueeyes
12 Nov 2012, 19:03
Adje, an excellent post.
Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
Where's my smiley? :D Can a mod please add this? :D I think its apt and I'm on my phone :facepalm: :D:D:D:D:D:D
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
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Monstro
13 Nov 2012, 01:44
Smiley mod lol
Smiley mod lol
I can't see, did you add the facepalm smiley? That's the one I was after ;)
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Fire Ball
13 Nov 2012, 04:14
razorball, Sorry , " But he can't stay HUMBLE" is not opinion , you are now making up Facts. Because I get angry has nothing to do if I am humble or not.
Everyone who just came off the road with me will tell you so. Every one I come across will tell you so . I can't believe I have to defend this statement , If you were around me for one day and watched what I do and how I deal with everyone I come into contact with you would have never made that statement. I came back to give everyone on this site an apology only to have this thrown in my face. Oh well , it only proves my point..
there are people that come to this site just to be ugly. You are talking out the side of your face . What you have written is a blatant lie. You obviously have know idea who I am or how I think.
------------------------------------YOU NEED TO KEEP READING--------------
Now, I don't know what to say now , except for all here that truly support me and have supported me through the Years I am truly sorry for my outburst. I was having a really bad weekend and I came here because I felt I was coming to a safe place. I was sure that was a safe place . The thread on my Voice pushed me over the edge, Knowing how hard I've worked over the last 5 years , on Pitch , With John on timing, John will come in somedays , Paul on others and Justin as well and listen to the last show we did, to help me make corrections. But a song Like Living on the Outside , the verses have no Time. I lost my Voice in 1980 and again in the end of 1994 not like in "80 ... it, I guess is a sensitive issue for me ( you think) and to see a thread and for everyone to be writing maybe it wasn't negative but that is how it felt at that moment and I couldn't believe a whole thread had been dedicated to the subject. I have a temper but it really doesn't appear that often. (Gary did take my paints) . It did that day and I am sorry , please except my apology. If you find you can't I understand , when I get that angry I go straight for the jugular it is a very ugly side of me that I don't like at all . In the last 45 years I have worked very hard for that side never to appear. I am human and not perfect ,say that twice, To all I am truly SORRY !! On side note I am always HUMBLE !! I KNOW VERY WELL WHY I AM HERE !!
ALWAYS,
MEAT
Yes human. But can't he stay HUMBLE? I mean, come on!! Not ONE SINGLE negative comment about his voice on the VOICE thread! Just people comparing his voice CHANGES during his career. Go to expectingrain, the Bob Dylan site.OK not a "fan club", but a site dedicated to fans on the internet. Dylan had how many voices during his career? People talk about that. People prefer 60s voice, other 90s voice, some hate 2000s voice, some think it's more like tom waits and prefer it and so on..... It's a conversation topic, a debate about something beautiful, something essential at least to me: music. If ML doesn't like us talking about his voice, if this is such a critical topic for him , ok be it fine, but why come here and insult his fans? Are artists with a capital A supposed to do that? THAT is a question, and I hope it gets people thinking about it. Why did he send me a PM of insults when I said that I thought his voice was lower based from a youtube. OK you can disagree with me, sayin'you can't base your argument from a youtube, the board tape sounds fine and so on. But why attack with insults (jerk, fxxxx off and so on) when the topics are not made to insult the man? Saying that to me, I spent half of my life listening to that guy on a weekly basis, even had a ML Museum at my home when i was a teenager!!
Even on a fan forum I HOPE we can still make some objective, sometimes critical comments, or are we in a Teletubies bad trip here?
Also then why go to interviews and tell the world that people insult other people for free on the internet, and then go on and do the same? I'm not sure MLs attitude combines well with humility. Sad for a 65 year old guy.
I don't know what to say either. Meat *IS* humble, I'll vouch for that.
I haven't understood all along why, when it's obvious entire threads about Meat's voice have bothered him from the start, people can't take that at face value and ease up on it.
I have said in this thread that I don't feel he needed to apologize, but he has, so let's try to live up to it.
Why am I not addressing my post to Meat? Because he probably knows how I feel already, it's just some on here that don't.
-Kathy
Not needed for me Meat. We're fine, always have been, but I hope it will be appreciated by everyone here. Never seen you lacking humility, ever. Seen you hurt often. Big man, big heart .. never a big ego. You should feel safe here. You should be amongst friends.
Caryl
Mr. Happy
13 Nov 2012, 04:49
Wall of text that should never be quoted
http://www.mlponline.net/attachments/ddd-gif.1386/
This was a thing of beauty :up:
Now, I don't know what to say now , except for all here that truly support me and have supported me through the Years I am truly sorry for my outburst. I was having a really bad weekend and I came here because I felt I was coming to a safe place. I was sure that was a safe place . The thread on my Voice pushed me over the edge, Knowing how hard I've worked over the last 5 years , on Pitch , With John on timing, John will come in somedays , Paul on others and Justin as well and listen to the last show we did, to help me make corrections. But a song Like Living on the Outside , the verses have no Time. I lost my Voice in 1980 and again in the end of 1994 not like in "80 ... it, I guess is a sensitive issue for me ( you think) and to see a thread and for everyone to be writing maybe it wasn't negative but that is how it felt at that moment and I couldn't believe a whole thread had been dedicated to the subject. I have a temper but it really doesn't appear that often. (Gary did take my paints) . It did that day and I am sorry , please except my apology. If you find you can't I understand , when I get that angry I go straight for the jugular it is a very ugly side of me that I don't like at all . In the last 45 years I have worked very hard for that side never to appear. I am human and not perfect ,say that twice, To all I am truly SORRY !! On side note I am always HUMBLE !! I KNOW VERY WELL WHY I AM HERE !!
ALWAYS,
MEAT
No one here hates you Meat, or wants to see you hurt or upset or anything :shrug: We're all fans, that's why we post. Some of us (me included, I had a post or two in the voice thread) may benefit from realising our posts may be a little confronting :oops: You gotta know*, though, that the discussion here isn't done with the intention of bringing you down. That'd defeat the purpose of anyone coming here at all.
Thank you for this, appreciate the apology :)
*read this like the final few lines from MSO For Crying Out Loud (GOD you gotta know!) :D
LuuuuvMeat
13 Nov 2012, 05:14
Thanks, Meat. :-)
Good luck with your surgery.
In my honest to God opinion, Meat did not have to apologize here tonight. He is a very humble individual with a lot of heart. All my love Meat, you have my full support... Can we please move on now?
LuuuuvMeat
13 Nov 2012, 05:26
In my honest to God opinion, Meat did not have to apologize here tonight.
We all have different opinions. That's the beauty of MLUKFC.
In my honest to God opinion, Meat did not have to apologize here tonight. He is a very humble individual with a lot of heart. All my love Meat, you have my full support... Can we please move on now?
Took the words......you know the rest ;)
(Gary did take my paints)
He he he, that made me giggle out loud a bit :)
I won't thank you for the apology, because I never felt I needed one, but thanks for stopping by Meat.
We love ya
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner
Thank you Meat, you truly do have a big heart. IMHO you didn't owe anyone an apology,
and you know you will always have my full support and love no matter what.
Having said that, I hope that others here can accept it, learn something from it, and we can move on.
@Mel : I have to admit I giggled at that too !
I'm going to turn into a pumpkin if I don't get to bed! Goodnight all, and thanks Meat :) and I hope things will be better now!
anotherday
13 Nov 2012, 08:08
Love you MEATY. keep on keepin on, as my momma use to always say!
Really good to get up this morning and read that post, really good :up:
chairboys
13 Nov 2012, 13:18
Really good to get up this morning and read that post, really good :up:
Likewise.
Sebastian.
13 Nov 2012, 13:33
Really good to get up this morning and read that post, really good :up:
Indeed. What an amazing & lovely post.
A placeholder, that's all.
Now, I don't know what to say now , except for all here that truly support me and have supported me through the Years I am truly sorry for my outburst. I was having a really bad weekend and I came here because I felt I was coming to a safe place. I was sure that was a safe place . The thread on my Voice pushed me over the edge, Knowing how hard I've worked over the last 5 years , on Pitch , With John on timing, John will come in somedays , Paul on others and Justin as well and listen to the last show we did, to help me make corrections. But a song Like Living on the Outside , the verses have no Time. I lost my Voice in 1980 and again in the end of 1994 not like in "80 ... it, I guess is a sensitive issue for me ( you think) and to see a thread and for everyone to be writing maybe it wasn't negative but that is how it felt at that moment and I couldn't believe a whole thread had been dedicated to the subject. I have a temper but it really doesn't appear that often. (Gary did take my paints) . It did that day and I am sorry , please except my apology. If you find you can't I understand , when I get that angry I go straight for the jugular it is a very ugly side of me that I don't like at all . In the last 45 years I have worked very hard for that side never to appear. I am human and not perfect ,say that twice, To all I am truly SORRY !! On side note I am always HUMBLE !! I KNOW VERY WELL WHY I AM HERE !!
ALWAYS,
MEAT
In case you missed this, see above. And I have added some posts that belong here but have been posted elsewhere while this thread was closed. Perfect way to conclude this thread.
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