Meat Loaf Endorses Mitt Romney For POTUS

[Sebastian.]

If i'm wrong, i'm off to America to run myself. It would be kind of cool to do whatever the f*ck you want without going to the trouble of making those pesky laws :mrgreen:

Vermin Supreme. FREE PONY FOR EVERYONE!
4d_FvgQ1csE

[Sarge]

FREE PONY FOR EVERYONE!

Will it be a red one?

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: So, even if Romney wins, gay rights and womens rights are not at threat until everyone with a voice in the American government is as bat shit as Romney?

I think that makes the future safe ;)

Vermin Supreme. FREE PONY FOR EVERYONE!
4d_FvgQ1csE

:twisted: I rest my case.
No way could Mr Supreme be nuts enough to side with Roney on his civil rights arguments :mrgreen:

[CarylB]

Unless you are inside his mind you can't know that.

There are people I don't know, and people I do; people whose integrity I have complete faith in, and some I do not, based on their actions over many years. You cannot tell me what I know, and what I don't.

Meat is making it very difficult to figure out what he truly believes.

Perhaps for you, perhaps for others. Not for me.

We have a mutual friend who supports Romney and who is delighted Meat has endorsed him. Does that support of Romney make this person an elitist anti-gay who is against women's rights? I don't think so. Yet I have seen more evidence of Meat's support of gays and have watched him bring up two independent and confident daughters.

Again, actions speak louder than words.

And I have watched Meat's actions in practice for many years. I have no doubts at all.

Caryl

[lorenzoduke]

:twisted: So, even if Romney wins, gay rights and womens rights are not at threat until everyone with a voice in the American government is as bat shit as Romney?

I think that makes the future safe ;)

Republicans have overturned gay marriage laws in the past, in California for instance, and abortion laws vary between states, largely influenced by presidential rule and again, congress. Gay marriage remains illegal in most states.

[The Flying Mouse]

Republicans have overturned gay marriage laws in the past, in California for instance, and abortion laws vary between states, largely influenced by presidential rule and again, congress. Gay marriage remains illegal in most states.

:twisted: It sounds like these laws are made and repealled and made again like a revolving door :wtf:
So even if Romney gets in, changes the laws (I still think Vermin will be one tough sell :bleh: ) then someone with a brain will turn up sooner or later and change the law again.

It seems to make Romney and his clowns (as well as everyone else) a little obsolete.

[AndrewG]

What I think it crazy is Romney is so against Obamacare. Although some of the particulars may not be right in practice but surely universal healthcare is a good thing?? :?

He has vowed to overtun the healthcare bill. At least if Obama stays in control and perhaps another Democrat president follows the law cannot really be repealed.

[lorenzoduke]

:twisted: It sounds like these laws are made and repealled and made again like a revolving door :wtf:
So even if Romney gets in, changes the laws (I still think Vermin will be one tough sell :bleh: ) then someone with a brain will turn up sooner or later and change the law again.

It seems to make Romney and his clowns (as well as everyone else) a little obsolete.

That's about the size of it.

[CarylB]

What I think it crazy is Romney is so against Obamacare. Although some of the particulars may not be right in practice but surely universal healthcare is a good thing?? :?

He has vowed to overtun the healthcare bill. At least if Obama stays in control and perhaps another Democrat president follows the law cannot really be repealed.

Meat has said he has read the entire bill, and whilst he believes there is a need to introduce health care reforms, much of what is in this bill isn't, in his view, workable. I doubt many arguing about this on the net have actually read through it ;)

I agree universal health care is a good thing, and as sorely needed in the US as it must be difficult to introduce at this point in time. I certainly haven't studied the detail of the bill. As Kathy referred to earlier .. so much opinion is formed now on what amounts to sound bites and internet comment. The principle is obviously sound .. it's getting it right in the practice .. Finally, the devil is in the detail.

Caryl

[LuuuuvMeat]

TMZ is now reporting on ballot problems for Meat.

[AndrewG]

Meat has said he has read the entire bill, and whilst he believes there is a need to introduce health care reforms, much of what is in this bill isn't, in his view, workable. I doubt many arguing about this on the net have actually read through it ;)

I agree universal health care is a good thing, and as sorely needed in the US as it must be difficult to introduce at this point in time. I certainly haven't studied the detail of the bill. As Kathy referred to earlier .. so much opinion is formed now on what amounts to sound bites and internet comment. The principle is obviously sound .. it's getting it right in the practice .. Finally, the devil is in the detail.

Caryl

From what I can gain from Romney's website is he is more for state controlled healthcare. That seems more of a devolution approach rather than universal I guess.

[CarylB]

TMZ is now reporting on ballot problems for Meat.

TMZ (not always the most reliable ;) ) have obviously checked and found that Meat is not yet registered to vote in Austin, but that he had applied for an absentee ballot for California .. and they don't know the outcome of this. I guess this is similar to our postal voting arrangement? I've had this for years. If for any reason he is unable to vote I suspect it won't affect the outcome ;) If things are that close we'll be in for a terrible drawn out time .. remember the chads? :lol:

Caryl

[LuuuuvMeat]

TMZ (not always the most reliable ;)

Caryl


It's actually more reliable now which is kinda scary. ;)

[CarylB]

From what I can gain from Romney's website is he is more for state controlled healthcare. That seems more of a devolution approach rather than universal I guess.

Yes, that's my impression .. as with so many programmes and legislation in the US. To a more limited extent it's the way we're heading of course .. eg differences in prescription charges between England and Scotland .. and the infamous postal code lottery for certain drugs.

There's such a long history of State legislation in the USA, but then it's so huge as well as having that history.

Caryl

[BostonAngel]

Meat has said he has read the entire bill, and whilst he believes there is a need to introduce health care reforms, much of what is in this bill isn't, in his view, workable. I doubt many arguing about this on the net have actually read through it ;)
Caryl

For the record, I have in fact read the entire health bill - several times! While it isn't perfect it is the best option available at this time. I don't think it is any secret that I disagree 100% with Meat about it.
The interesting twist to the whole health care issue is that the bill that the national health care law was based on was first adopted in the state of Massachusetts. The chief architect, writer and supporter of the MA bill - Mitt Romney. Essentially he is criticizing & attempting to repeal a bill that he helped come up with and gave high praise to when he was Governor of my state of MA , trying to get HIS bill thru the State legislature. They should have called it Romney Care instead of Obama Care.
I have a perspective on it that most others don't have. I saw what an ineffective leader Mitt Romney was as Governor of MY state. I don't want the same ineffective, inept, uncaring, self-serving leadership for my country.

[CarylB]

For the record, I have in fact read the entire health bill - several times!

Oh brilliant. As I said, I haven't read it .. I don't even know how many more than 1400 pages there are? .. unlike you and Meat, and those who have read the whole thing. I'd still think that most of those debating it on the net haven't invested that time though .. Well done .. However long did it take? But hopefully you can explain it :-)

I thought Romney's main concern is that he believes States, not Washington, should drive policy on the uninsured; that he proposes to guarantee that people who are "continuously covered" for a certain period be protected against losing insurance if they get sick, leave their job and need another policy; and would expand individual tax-advantaged medical savings accounts and let savings be used for insurance premiums as well as personal medical costs. Please correct me if I've got these muddled.

So how does the national bill he wants to repeal differ from the state bill he was pushing MA? (I take it he didn't get that passed?) Just key differences .. Also the proposals he is suggesting .. were these in his MA bill or are they new ones?

Caryl

[BostonAngel]

Oh brilliant. As I said, I haven't read it .. I don't even know how many more than 1400 pages there are? .. unlike you and Meat, and those who have read the whole thing. I'd still think that most of those debating it on the net haven't invested that time though .. Well done .. However long did it take? But hopefully you can explain it :-)

I thought Romney's main concern is that he believes States, not Washington, should drive policy on the uninsured; that he proposes to guarantee that people who are "continuously covered" for a certain period be protected against losing insurance if they get sick, leave their job and need another policy; and would expand individual tax-advantaged medical savings accounts and let savings be used for insurance premiums as well as personal medical costs. Please correct me if I've got these muddled.

So how does the national bill he wants to repeal differ from the state bill he was pushing MA? (I take it he didn't get that passed?) Just key differences .. Also the proposals he is suggesting .. were these in his MA bill or are they new ones?

Caryl

The MA bill did in fact get passed and his now law in the state. The entire health care system and the bill are complicated and can't be explained in a simple web post. As you said it is around 1400 pages.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

You only have to look at a few hard core liberals such as Michael Moore and Bruce Springsteen (listen to his Wrecking Ball album) to find out many don't agree with a large part of Obama's Wall Street / banking support policies yet they both still come out and endorse Obama to the brim.

Springsteen posted his position and reasons for endorsing Obama very clearly on his official website.

but its putting meats character into question.... and I feelk if and when meat sees this hes gone forever from here

But Wario, that's the risk Meat took when he decided to go public with this endorsemant. He if does that, I'm sorry, but it's hypocritical. He had to have known some of the fanbase might not like it. What's that old saying? "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

:twisted: I'm no expert in the American political system, but is it that easy?

He might try and curtail women's rights and gay rights, but I would have thought there would have to be some sort of vote for that to happen.

He might have the power to force his crazy ideas to the vote, but he can't push them through.

It's not quite that easy, but one thing that a sitting president has the ability to do is to appoint justices to the Supreme Court (the Senate has to confirm them, but this usually happens), two of whom (I think) are due to retire soon. Naturally, the President is going to choose Justices who support his own views. This could potentially sway the court in some cases.

[loaferman61]

but its putting meats character into question.... and I feelk if and when meat sees this hes gone forever from here

Hopefully Meat will see that some support his right to endorse whomever he wishes. He also knows much the same happened to African-American actress Stacey Dash when she endorsed Romney. You are going to get attacked by the liberal mob because it is not hate when they do it. I am sure he would expect that his own fans would respect his right of choice even though they disagree with him. 90% of what I have read online against Meat is from what are in my opinion radical homosexuals, Meat has never done or said anything that would indicate he is anti-gay in any way. He just chose between the only 2 options we get and Obama previous to this election was non-committal at most on the gay marriage thing. I am also betting a lot of these people saying they "were a fan" never really were.

[AndrewG]

Our nation is far more politically divided right now than ever before in my lifetime. Add to that the anonymity of the internet and a concomitant lack of simple respect for others as human beings, and we are seeing ugliness on a new scale. Meat has been through a lot in the last two days, dealing with unbelievable nastiness on his Facebook page from people who, in my view, have lost sight of their humanity. Many would shrug this off, delete the posts with a few choice words and move on, unaffected.


It's good to see those posts haven't affected Meat too much. However as far as I can make out those posts on Facebook HAVE now been deleted and I disagree with the anonymous factor. On Facebook people are hardly anonymous, using their real name and sharing basic details and you can as an admin of band pages quite easily find out who is saying nasty things. The internet including Facebook works two ways in my opinion; you can use it as a social media marketing tool but it can also be used by everyone to comment on you. Should those people have respect when posting? Probably but it's hardly surprising some won't. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen I guess. And in the case of the election perhaps the best thing to do next time is to simply keep your voting choice confined to the voting booth?

Good to see the concert was good and Meat was singing fine after a rest.

[CarylB]

However as far as I can make out those posts on Facebook HAVE now been deleted

For accuracy, they have not been deleted. Some of the more sexually graphic ones will probably have been removed by Facebook because they have been reported.

However, please let's not derail the thread. It was great that Meat gave such a fantastic show again, and Kathy's review is lovely to read. Thank you again Kathy :-)

Caryl

[CarylB]

I am also betting a lot of these people saying they "were a fan" never really were.

Imo that's where the smart money's placed. There are sites actively encouraging this behaviour

Caryl

[AndrewG]

For accuracy, they have not been deleted.

However, please let's not derail the thread. It was great that Meat gave such a fantastic show again, and Kathy's review is lovely to read. Thank you again Kathy :-)

Caryl

This thread was derailed by Kathy's opening statements in my opinion.
The Romney related posts on some of the articles on his FB page have most certainly been deleted.

[Sarge]

For accuracy, they have not been deleted.

Where have they gone then?

[AndrewG]

I am also betting a lot of these people saying they "were a fan" never really were.

How do you know this for sure? Do you have some statistics to back this up? You only have to look at the reactions of some of the hard core fans here to see that some people ARE disappointed. A lesser hard core fan may indeed throw the records out or not play or buy them anymore or not go to his gigs anymore. I certainly think that this is a possibility because of this association. If Romney wins I think that that is even more likely than if he loses.

[lorenzoduke]

I am sure he would expect that his own fans would respect his right of choice even though they disagree with him.

I would find that a disgustingly hypocritical thing for someone who has told people to argue with family and friends rather than respecting their own political views to think.

[CarylB]

Where have they gone then?

Not deleted by Meat, but removed by FB after being reported as sexually graphic and offensive

[Sarge]

Just out of curiosity, how do you know in detail how Meat Loaf's FB page is being administrated? How do you know who deletes what and why?

[LuuuuvMeat]

Hopefully Meat will see that some support his right to endorse whomever he wishes. He also knows much the same happened to African-American actress Stacey Dash when she endorsed Romney. You are going to get attacked by the liberal mob because it is not hate when they do it. I am sure he would expect that his own fans would respect his right of choice even though they disagree with him. 90% of what I have read online against Meat is from what are in my opinion radical homosexuals, Meat has never done or said anything that would indicate he is anti-gay in any way. He just chose between the only 2 options we get and Obama previous to this election was non-committal at most on the gay marriage thing. I am also betting a lot of these people saying they "were a fan" never really were.


Liberal mob? Radical homosexuals?

Sounds like Fox news sound bites. LOL!

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: Thread cleaned.
Enough with the personal attacks.
This thread has got bundles of fun already without the same old personal arguments cropping up. :facepalm:

Stick to the topic.


As for the deletion (by Meat or Facebook) I can't say i'm suprised. If somebody called me a "fat f*ck" i'm sure i'd delete it myself. I can't think of a single reason for someone to let that stand on their own page :wtf:
The same goes for people who post saying they're going to burn all his albums. Why would you want such a tirade of hate on your own wall?
Especially when it's bound to do nothing more than encourage other loonies (let me repeat the word for emphisis, LOONIES) to post such hate messages just because the guy picked a candidate they don't agree with.

Folks have posted here that they support Romney, but those people are not called gay bashers or women haters. Their choice of candidate might not be agreed with, but they are at least treated with respect (or at the very least, a lack of open hostility).

It's such a shame that part of his fanbase projects so much onto him that they feel betrayed that he has a different political point of view from them.

People like that are freaking nuts :nuts:



How do you know this for sure? Do you have some statistics to back this up? You only have to look at the reactions of some of the hard core fans here to see that some people ARE disappointed. A lesser hard core fan may indeed throw the records out or not play or buy them anymore or not go to his gigs anymore. I certainly think that this is a possibility because of this association. If Romney wins I think that that is even more likely than if he loses.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was a healthy mix of both fans and assholes who say they're fans who are not fans anymore because they think it makes some sort of point :nuts:

The people pretending to be fans don't matter.

The people who are fans who want to burn Bat Out Of Hell are either the most casual of fans who are not really losing anything by getting rid of their copy, or the nuttiest of the nuttiest who think they've been betrayed because the singer of their favourite album doesn't share their views.

The latter should not be allowed near tall buildings with rifles :bleh:

The normal fan, the sane fan, can seperate the politics from the music.
I support Obama (well, actually I now back Vermin :mrgreen: ) and I listen to Meat Loaf. Life doesn't feel complicated or compromised in the least :shrug:

[lorenzoduke]

The normal fan, the sane fan, can seperate the politics from the music.

Bringing the band to perform at a political rally doesn't seem much like separating the politics from the music to me. Had Meat merely used his own vote rather than attempting to use his fame to try to influence others political decisions, this discussion wouldn't exist.

Unless everyone in the band is a Republican, that shows a lack of respect for them.
Unless L'il Jon gave his permission for his recorded performance to be used at the rally, that shows a lack of respect for him.
Telling people to argue with their friends and family is asking people to show a lack of respect for those people.

All of this, I find very out of character.

To those who don't mind a celebrity telling them who to vote for and who don't consider it pompous and ridiculous for that person to tell them to argue with family rather than respect their views, more power to you. No I won't be burning my albums or missing concerts because of this, but Meat basically using his fanbase and his fame to try to tell people how to vote makes me respect him less, as does him giving a huge unqualified endorsement to someone we later find out he completely disagrees with on numerous important topics of civil rights.

[AndrewG]

Not deleted by Meat, but removed by FB after being reported as sexually graphic and offensive

Yes but even Meat's responses and his explanation that he defends women's rights have been removed. :shrug:

[TheDoode]

Thread cleaned. Enough with the personal attacks.

Especially when it's bound to do nothing more than encourage other loonies (let me repeat the word for emphisis, LOONIES).

People like that are freaking nuts :nuts:

Yeah. It's hard to take the first part seriously when you go on to label an entire bunch of people as 'freaking nuts' and 'loonies'. :shock: I'm not defending what they said, but if I were to post a generalization like that here about some of the more overzealous personalities when it comes to defending all things Loaf, I imagine the comment would be deleted and I'd be issued an infraction.

[AndrewG]

Telling people to argue with their friends and family is asking people to show a lack of respect for those people.

I agree with the majority of your post but I think Meat means nothing more than a healthy debate with this. Everyone has a right to be critical and use your vote. I think he is discouraging apathy with this myself rather than bullying everyone into voting for the same thing. My understanding anyway.

[CarylB]

Bringing the band to perform at a political rally doesn't seem much like separating the politics from the music to me.

I don't see why it's that different to a gig. Paul got a kick out of being on the bus and posted a photo, Dave Luther posted some pictures and basically said it was an honour to be within feet of a Presidential candidate even if as a liberal he didn't support him, and that everybody was just having fun with it.

[JennaG]

It doesn't bother me either way who Meat has chosen to support in this election and quite frankly, I don't care. I am a fan of Meat Loaf's because his music has brought me great joy over the years and when I met him, he was one of the loveliest people I have ever had the privilege of meeting. The fact that he holds a particular opinion about a political party does not change how I feel about him as an artist or as a person.

I am not supporting anyone in this election and I have far more important things to be worrying about than who is going to be running a country I don't even live in and probably won't be visiting for quite a few years. What I am bothered about is the nature of some of the comments that were posted on Meat Loaf's Facebook, they went beyond simply stating a disagreement with him over this matter and were nothing but insults.

Some might argue that by making your views known, you put yourself out there for others to make comments on it but resorting to irrelevant insults achieves nothing in trying to convince people to see things the way you want them to.

[LuuuuvMeat]

Folks have posted here that they support Romney, but those people are not called gay bashers or women haters. Their choice of candidate might not be agreed with, but they are at least treated with respect (or at the very least, a lack of open hostility).

:



FB is a different animal. There are more strangers blowing off steam. MLUKFC is familiar.

[lorenzoduke]

I don't see why it's that different to a gig. Paul got a kick out of being on the bus and posted a photo, Dave Luther posted some pictures and basically said it was an honour to be within feet of a Presidential candidate even if as a liberal he didn't support him, and that everybody was just having fun with it.

As I mentioned earlier, performing at a political rally implies support of the candidate in question. If all of the band were happy to be there, I'm surprised, but fair enough. The rest of my points remain.

[CarylB]

Yes but even Meat's responses and his explanation that he defends women's rights have been removed. :shrug:

As far as that goes, it looks as though they've done what one might expect on most forums .. removed all the off topic posts on that particular thread Meat had started before the rally, leaving just the ones that relate to the opening post.

[AndrewG]

I am not supporting anyone in this election and I have far more important things to be worrying about than who is going to be running a country I don't even live in and probably won't be visiting for quite a few years.

I think it would be great if this REALLY were the case. In my opinion the policies of the government of the USA have far more consequences than just concerning matters within the borders of that country. They certainly do influence policies here in the UK, certainly with regards to our own foreign and economic policies. :?

[CarylB]

FB is a different animal.

Imo FB is a feral animal! ;)

[The Flying Mouse]

Bringing the band to perform at a political rally doesn't seem much like separating the politics from the music to me.

:twisted: He was singing a patriotic song. He needed a band. We wanted to use his own. I doubt he held a gun to anybodys head.
We don't know what happened between Meat and the band, and we don't know how wiling each member was to take part.
As we don't know, it's best not to speculate.



Had Meat merely used his own vote rather than attempting to use his fame to try to influence others political decisions, this discussion wouldn't exist.

Celebrities try to influence the public all the time.
In England we have footballers that try to sell you underwear and shaving razors. We've got a rugby player trying tobget us all to play Bingo, TV chefs trying to flog you their own products or send you to a certain supermarket (and even Gordon Ramsey doing an add for Spec Savers).
Shop here, buy this, think that.
The cult of the celeb was here long before Meat sang for Romney, and it still means more nor less.

If Paul Crook told me such or such a guitar was good, i'd believe him. He's a guitarist. But what makes David Beckham an expert in underwear? Brittany Spears in perfume? Or Reg Holdsworth in double glazing windows?

Anyone who takes Meat's views over their own is a dunderhead, and needs to be put into an institution for their own good. Just like anyone who stays in a hotal based on the fact Lenny Henry claims to stay there.

A sane person knows the difference between professional opinion and personal opinion.


Unless everyone in the band is a Republican, that shows a lack of respect for them.
Unless L'il Jon gave his permission for his recorded performance to be used at the rally, that shows a lack of respect for him.


You know that any of the band members didn't want to do it?
I don't know one way of the other, so I don't feel like I can speculate.
Do you know for a fact Lil Jon was against his recording being used?
I only hope that part of the deal was a payment from the Romney camp to go to the charities the song was in aid of.

To say "there's no way Lil Jon would do this" is projecting again. It's not right, and it's not realistic.



Telling people to argue with their friends and family is asking people to show a lack of respect for those people.


Only by suggesting that they are dumb enough to do what they are told by a singer.
I might ask you to share my commercial page with your friends and family. It doesn't mean I disrespect them.



To those who don't mind a celebrity telling them who to vote for and who don't consider it pompous and ridiculous for that person to tell them to argue with family rather than respect their views, more power to you. No I won't be burning my albums or missing concerts because of this, but Meat basically using his fanbase and his fame to try to tell people how to vote makes me respect him less, as does him giving a huge unqualified endorsement to someone we later find out he completely disagrees with on numerous important topics of civil rights.

See above :lol:
I don't think that any celeb backing Obama is overstepping their bounds. Why should Meat be doing so just because it's for the other camp?
Let's have the same rule for everybody here.
Is the issue with the fact he endorces a candidate, or is the issue his choice of candidate?

[The Flying Mouse]

Yeah. It's hard to take the first part seriously when you go on to label an entire bunch of people as 'freaking nuts' and 'loonies'. :shock: I'm not defending what they said, but if I were to post a generalization like that here about some of the more overzealous personalities when it comes to defending all things Loaf, I imagine the comment would be deleted and I'd be issued an infraction.

:twisted: What I said was an attack on a certain (IMHO unrealistic) viewpoint, not on any particular person.
Certainly nobody on this forum.
How can an attack be personal if it's not aimed at anyone?


FB is a different animal. There are more strangers blowing off steam. MLUKFC is familiar.

Would you like to be a mod for a day to see how different things are here at times? :lawl:

[lorenzoduke]

Celebrities try to influence the public all the time.
In England we have footballers that try to sell you underwear and shaving razors. We've got a rugby player trying tobget us all to play Bingo, TV chefs trying to flog you their own products or send you to a certain supermarket (and even Gordon Ramsey doing an add for Spec Savers).
Shop here, buy this, think that.

There's a vast difference between telling you what pants to wear and telling you who to vote for. Whichever brand of boxers Beckham decides to promote isn't ultimately going to affect people's right to marry or retain autonomy over their body.



To say "there's no way Lil Jon would do this" is projecting again.

Which is why I never said it.


I might ask you to share my commercial page with your friends and family. It doesn't mean I disrespect them.

Asking someone to look at your page isn't disrespectful. Telling someone to argue with and attempt to influence somebody's beliefs is again, more than a little different than that.


Is the issue with the fact he endorces a candidate, or is the issue his choice of candidate?

I have repeatedly said what my issue is, very clearly. If you choose to ignore that and speculate, that's up to you. I suppose it's easier to debate someone's point if you choose to debate a point they never made.

[JennaG]

I think it would be great if this REALLY were the case. In my opinion the policies of the government of the USA have far more consequences than just concerning matters within the borders of that country. They certainly do influence policies here in the UK, certainly with regards to our own foreign and economic policies. :?

I can see exactly what you're saying and normally I'd agree with you but without saying too much, there are things going on for me at the moment that are more of a priority than supporting a candidate in an election I can't even vote in.

[TheDoode]

:twisted: What I said was an attack on a certain (IMHO unrealistic) viewpoint, not on any particular person.
Certainly nobody on this forum.
How can an attack be personal if it's not aimed at anyone?


That's odd, because for a minute I thought you said that people like that were 'freaking nuts'... :??:

[LuuuuvMeat]

Would you like to be a mod for a day to see how different things are here at times? :lawl:



Sure! I'm always up for a challenge. ;)

[The Flying Mouse]

There's a vast difference between telling you what pants to wear and telling you who to vote for. Whichever brand of boxers Beckham decides to promote isn't ultimately going to affect people's right to marry or retain autonomy over their body.


:twisted: Meat's endorcement will not effect people's rights to marry or retain autonomy over their bodies either.
I don't believe for one second that Meat's voice, no matter who he speaks in favour of, will have ANY effect on this election.



Which is why I never said it.


But I dare say there are those in Lil Jon's fanbase that will. Because to believe that he either supports Romney, or sold out and let the recording be used for money, would make those fans feel betrayed.





Asking someone to look at your page isn't disrespectful. Telling someone to argue with and attempt to influence somebody's beliefs is again, more than a little different than that.


I play my nephew Meat Loaf Meat Loaf and Joe Cocker. I'm trying to influence him. Does that make me a bad person?
Politics is all about disagreement and debate. Encouraging the debate is part of the course IMHO.



I have repeatedly said what my issue is, very clearly. If you choose to ignore that and speculate, that's up to you.

You're making two seperate points. How can Meat back Mitt Romney? and why does Meat think he's in a position to influence people because he's a celebrity?


I suppose it's easier to debate someone's point if you choose to debate a point they never made.

You've lost me there :shock:

[The Flying Mouse]

That's odd, because for a minute I thought you said that people like that were 'freaking nuts'... :??:

:twisted: OK, how about............

"people of the mindset that they can project their own personal opinions onto their favourite celebrity are freaking nuts".

Is that better?

[lorenzoduke]

You're making two seperate points. How can Meat back Mitt Romney? and why does Meat think he's in a position to influence people because he's a celebrity?

Neither of those are points I have made.


You've lost me there :shock:

Evidently.

[The Flying Mouse]

Neither of those are points I have made.



:twisted: I think you have :bleh:




Had Meat merely used his own vote rather than attempting to use his fame to try to influence others political decisions, this discussion wouldn't exist.




Meat basically using his fanbase and his fame to try to tell people how to vote makes me respect him less,


And, either you don't like Romney, or you meant this in the best way possible..............




There's a vast difference between telling you what pants to wear and telling you who to vote for. Whichever brand of boxers Beckham decides to promote isn't ultimately going to affect people's right to marry or retain autonomy over their body.




So, again, is your main problem that Meat (along with other celebs) endorce a candidate, or is the problem with who Meat is endorcing?

[Tomjoad]

I don't see why it's that different to a gig. Paul got a kick out of being on the bus and posted a photo, Dave Luther posted some pictures and basically said it was an honour to be within feet of a Presidential candidate even if as a liberal he didn't support him, and that everybody was just having fun with it.

There's a world of difference in my opinion. That was not a fair or a carnival, that was a political rally. If one or two members of the band say "cool!" and post a picture, doesn't mean all of them were comfortable. This has to be clear: if you perform on a stage at a rally, you are perceived as a supporter of that candidate. Did Meat ask them one by one if they wanted to go? I hope so.

[The Flying Mouse]

There's a world of difference in my opinion. That was not a fair or a carnival, that was a political rally. If one or two members of the band say "cool!" and post a picture, doesn't mean all of them were comfortable. This has to be clear: if you perform on a stage at a rally, you are perceived as a supporter of that candidate. Did Meat ask them one by one if they wanted to go? I hope so.

:twisted: As i've said in a prior post, who was willing, who was not willing, how they were asked, it's all speculation.

Until Meat or any band member decides to enlighten us with the facts, let's not try proving any points using gueswork :wink:

[lorenzoduke]

:twisted: I think you have :bleh:

So, again, is your main problem that Meat (along with other celebs) endorce a candidate, or is the problem with who Meat is endorcing?

Nice try. In neither of those quotes you've painstakingly taken out of context do I ask how Meat could vote for Romney - indeed, I say 'if only he had just voted for him'.

I have also said I would feel the same regardless of who he was telling people to vote for. Apparently you chose to ignore that quote. What a surprise. :roll:

I do not like the idea of Meat Loaf using his fame to tell people who to vote for. It divides fans and it is something he has never done before.

I don't like the fact that he offered an unqualified endorsement, his first in 40 years, only to turn around the next day and say he disagrees with Romney on a number of key issues.

I also never ask why Meat feels he is in a position to use his celebrity for an endorsement. Meat is in that position, clearly. I simply said I don't think he should and that it will (and has) divide his fans.

I have also said I find it disrespectful to tell people to argue with their family and friends rather than respecting their own opinions. Once again, you ignore this, determined as you are to ignore everything I've said and push the agenda you've invented for me.

You seem to have some sort of desperation to tell me what I think rather than listening to what I have said. I've explained my points clearly and concisely - everyone but you seems to have understood them. I can't be bothered wasting further effort explaining.

[Sarge]

I'd like to thank lorenzoduke for his posts. (Since I refrain from clicking "like" or "dislike" buttons, I have to do it this way.)

[CarylB]

There's a world of difference in my opinion. That was not a fair or a carnival, that was a political rally. If one or two members of the band say "cool!" and post a picture, doesn't mean all of them were comfortable. This has to be clear: if you perform on a stage at a rally, you are perceived as a supporter of that candidate. Did Meat ask them one by one if they wanted to go? I hope so.

Were I a member of a backing band I would not see it that way. That's my view. You are entitled to yours, as are they to theirs. I have merely posted what two band members have made public via the net. I am not speculating as to how each felt or if each was asked .. I agree with Mouse. If it is an issue for you, you could ask them individually. They are all on FB.

[Tomjoad]

Were I a member of a backing band I would not see it that way. That's my view. You are entitled to yours, as are they to theirs. I have merely posted what two band members have made public via the net. I am not speculating as to how each felt or if each was asked .. I agree with Mouse. If it is an issue for you, you could ask them individually. They are all on FB.

Not my intention to speculate. My point is that nobody should be put in a sticky situation like that. That's all.

[CarylB]

Not my intention to speculate. My point is that nobody should be put in a sticky situation like that. That's all.

No, I said I wasn't speculating as to how each felt or was asked.

Some might say that to imply anyone was put in a sticky situation, as far as they were concerned, is speculation ;)

[loaferman61]

How do you know this for sure? Do you have some statistics to back this up? You only have to look at the reactions of some of the hard core fans here to see that some people ARE disappointed. A lesser hard core fan may indeed throw the records out or not play or buy them anymore or not go to his gigs anymore. I certainly think that this is a possibility because of this association. If Romney wins I think that that is even more likely than if he loses.
Hence my words "I'm betting" and "a lot" as opposed to "I'm certain" and "all"

[MarkS]

To the people who keep harping on about the band members, no one held a gun to anyone's head and said "do this or die." They are all f**king adults, and they made the decision on their own to attend. Do they support Romney, who the hell knows, we won't know unless they come here and tell us one way or the other.

A job is a job, but I would imagine that anyone who didn't want to be involved did not have to be if they didn't want to.

[Sarge]

A question that's not related to political controversy: How come videos of Meat Loaf singing America The Beautiful at the rally are removed from YouTube due to copyright claims by Red Pony Tours? What exactly does Meat Loaf hold the copyright to in this case?

[The Flying Mouse]

Nice try.

:twisted: Try? :wtf:

In neither of those quotes you've painstakingly taken out of context do I ask how Meat could vote for Romney - indeed, I say 'if only he had just voted for him'.


Taken out of context?
I've read what you said, and posted the relevant parts to what I was asking.

You're obvious dislike for Romney is why I asked for clarification on weather it was the crandidate or or the endorcement itself that you didn't like.




I have also said I would feel the same regardless of who he was telling people to vote for. Apparently you chose to ignore that quote. What a surprise. :roll:


Sorry, I must have overlooked that. No sarcasm required, I only asked you for a clarification.



I do not like the idea of Meat Loaf using his fame to tell people who to vote for. It divides fans and it is something he has never done before.

I do not like the idea of Meat Loaf using his fame to tell people who to vote for. It divides fans and it is something he has never done before.

I don't like the fact that he offered an unqualified endorsement, his first in 40 years, only to turn around the next day and say he disagrees with Romney on a number of key issues.


Then it's the endorcement you have a problem with.
But I asked you weather it was the cadidate or the endorcement you didn't like, and you said you had not made either point.





I also never ask why Meat feels he is in a position to use his celebrity for an endorsement. Meat is in that position, clearly. I simply said I don't think he should and that it will (and has) divide his fans.



So again, it's the endorcement itself you have the problem with, not the fact it was Romney endorced. This is all I asked you.



I have also said I find it disrespectful to tell people to argue with their family and friends rather than respecting their own opinions.


Fair enough.
I don't think it's unusual for someone talking to a political crowd to urge them to fight their corner.
I also think it's normal that the crowd needs no telling. It's normal that the celebrity speaker will have pretty much 0 effect on the commitment to those he speaks too.


Once again, you ignore this, determined as you are to ignore everything I've said and push the agenda you've invented for me.


:wtf:
I've asked you what your biggest issue was, and asked you to clarify, even when you've said the point you've made over and over is a point you've never made.

How can I invent an agenda for you when I have no idea what point you are trying to make?




You seem to have some sort of desperation to tell me what I think rather than listening to what I have said. I've explained my points clearly and concisely -

And then gone back to say that you weren't saying it :wtf:



I can't be bothered wasting further effort explaining.

I'd say we'll agree to disagree, but I think we actually agree. It's hard to say because you said you weren't making the point I was agreeing with.

I'll settle for agreeing to disagree :lol:

[The Flying Mouse]

Not my intention to speculate. My point is that nobody should be put in a sticky situation like that. That's all.

:twisted: I agree 100% :up:
My point is we don't know if there was any sticky situation.

[The Flying Mouse]

A question that's not related to political controversy: How come videos of Meat Loaf singing America The Beautiful at the rally are removed from YouTube due to copyright claims by Red Pony Tours? What exactly does Meat Loaf hold the copyright to in this case?

:twisted: A good point :up:
It's strange that having given such an endorcement Meat wouldn't want anybody to see it :wtf:

You could argue that he's got some sort of claim over it was his live peformance, but I personally think it's more to do with the poor quality of the performance.

[CarylB]

What exactly does Meat Loaf hold the copyright to in this case?

I would imagine his performance. Videos of an artist's performance taken by individuals in any public venue without specific permission are not legal, nor are those ripped from news channels. That would be my understanding, but Meat would be the person to ask for a definite answer. You could PM him.

[AndrewG]

A question that's not related to political controversy: How come videos of Meat Loaf singing America The Beautiful at the rally are removed from YouTube due to copyright claims by Red Pony Tours? What exactly does Meat Loaf hold the copyright to in this case?

I am assuming in many cases the words "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Red Pony Tours." actually mean "This video is no longer available because it sucked and I don't want anyone else to see it and I am using the copyright claim route to get it flipping removed from YouTube." :twisted:

[TheDoode]

:twisted: OK, how about............

"people of the mindset that they can project their own personal opinions onto their favourite celebrity are freaking nuts".

Is that better?

Ah, no. Not really. If you have the right to say that about them here, then likewise anyone here has the right to call behavior they may deem as 'freaking nuts', well, just that. The difference is: you get away with it. This I'm not that good with.

[BostonAngel]

For accuracy, they have not been deleted. Some of the more sexually graphic ones will probably have been removed by Facebook because they have been reported.

However, please let's not derail the thread. It was great that Meat gave such a fantastic show again, and Kathy's review is lovely to read. Thank you again Kathy :-)

Caryl

the last time I had checked Meat's Facebook page almost ANY post that had to do with supporting Obama, being disappointed in Meat's choice to endorse Romney or anything that could be taken as anti Romney, even if it had been expresed with thoughtfulness and respect has been deleted. So he gets to shove his opinion in our face, yet fans (and others) don't get to voice their opinion even when it is done in a respectful manner? HIs speech to endorse Romney was much more than a simple endorsement saying, yeah I happen to support this man. It was preaching and telling others how to do, how to vote. The way he is handling things on his FB page to me comes across as cowardly as well as hypocritcal and even borders on propoganda. Just because he deletes the criticism & disappoinment of others, it doesn't mean it isn't still there. And he is only causing further disappointment.
As Julie said, if you can't stand the heat say out of the kitchen.
He has given me one more reason to question his character and integrity with this endorsement and how he has handled the aftermath.

[TheDoode]

I am assuming in many cases the words "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Red Pony Tours." actually mean "This video is no longer available because it sucked and I don't want anyone else to see it and I am using the copyright claim route to get it flipping removed from YouTube." :twisted:

So while we're on the subject: maybe a softer vocal delivery might help these days? It's a criticism if you like, but it's constructive! I think we all want Meat to come off well at these events.

[The Flying Mouse]

Ah, no. Not really. If you have the right to say that about them here, then likewise anyone here has the right to call behavior they may deem as 'freaking nuts', well, just that. The difference is: you get away with it. This I'm not that good with.

:twisted: OK, how about, instead of freaking nuts, unrealistic and possessive?

[MarkS]

I must have missed the "respectful" expression of opinion on Facebook. Most of what I saw was riddled with bad language and insults. Quickest solution, get rid of it all.

I also find it odd for someone who for years has been so far up Meat's ass that she can taste his his food to suddenly turn on him over politics

If you make your musical listening decisions based on an artists political leanings then you are an idiot.

I don't support Romney, but I'm not going to turn on meat because of it. I'm not going to go out and burn Springsteen albums just because he supports Obama. People need to get a ~~~~ing grip

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[AndrewG]

So while we're on the subject: maybe a softer vocal delivery might help these days? It's a criticism if you like, but it's constructive! I think we all want Meat to come off well at these events.

I agree. The problem with Meat going over the top whilst his voice was tired and he was unable to control it made the vocal into some of the most awful singing I've ever heard. This may sound mean but I am being brutally honest. Ironically he has also delivered the best vocals I've ever heard in my life. :?

[Julie in the rv mirror]

I don't support Romney, but I'm not going to turn on meat because of it. I'm not going to go out and burn Springsteen albums just because he supports Obama. People need to get a ~~~~ing grip

You might not, but other people do (or say they do). The same hateful crap has been spread over the internet about Bruce for years. So much for the "Second Coming". :lol:

[MarkS]

As a voting American, this sums many of my thoughts on our candidates and this election

From Richard Marx on Twitter

@richardmarx: For me, this election is like deciding whether I'd prefer a Nike or an Adidas to kick me square in the nuts.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[The Flying Mouse]

the last time I had checked Meat's Facebook page almost ANY post that had to do with supporting Obama, being disappointed in Meat's choice to endorse Romney or anything that could be taken as anti Romney, even if it had been expresed with thoughtfulness and respect has been deleted. So he gets to shove his opinion in our face, yet fans (and others) don't get to voice their opinion even when it is done in a respectful manner? HIs speech to endorse Romney was much more than a simple endorsement saying, yeah I happen to support this man. It was preaching and telling others how to do, how to vote. The way he is handling things on his FB page to me comes across as cowardly as well as hypocritcal and even borders on propoganda. Just because he deletes the criticism & disappoinment of others, it doesn't mean it isn't still there. And he is only causing further disappointment.
As Julie said, if you can't stand the heat say out of the kitchen.
He has given me one more reason to question his character and integrity with this endorsement and how he has handled the aftermath.

:twisted: I agree, to an extent.
Any celeb sticking their head above the parapet can expect to be shot at, but this wasn't a smattering of rifle fire, some of it was fraking 24 pounder artillery :shock:

My post, although supportive of Meat, was not pro Romney, and it's still there. I'll post it here for the sake of example............


Het Meat.
I see you are taking a lot of flak for backing Mitt Romney.
Just wanted to say in the face of all this hostility thatI don't agree with your choice of candidate, but I don't have to.
Especially as I don't live in the US lol.
You have your views, and the right to express them (even if it means putting a target on your back).

Meat Loaf, to me, is a kick ass singer who brings the best. I don't need to embrace your politics to enjoy your music, and it baffles me that people are saying they do not wish to be your fans anymore because of who you back.
That's like backing a football team because of the breed of the managers dog :S
Rock on Meat, and keep bringing the best 8)

While looking for the post I also came across one that's still up calling Meat "mittloaf" (and not in a good way).
So not every post has been deleted that doesn't show support for Romney, but no doubt some have.

The most vile comments have no doubt been deleted, but that's only right.

If respectful comments have been taken down, i'd have to see the content myself to judge weather it was right (in my oppinion) to take them down or not.

End of the day, if you're going to speak up you must accept others will reply in disagreement.

I personally think that to make a political endorcement was a mistake, and no good come of it for Meat or his fans. But i'm not going to hold it agaist him. The endorcement, or who it's in favour of. I have a minimal opinion on Meat's ability to influence people in these matters and treat it with equally little importance.

[MarkS]

You might not, but other people do (or say they do). The same hateful crap has been spread over the internet about Bruce for years. So much for the "Second Coming". :lol:

If that's the case, than I feel sorry for Bruce as well, because nobody, regardless of political alliance deserves this kind of crap

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[The Flying Mouse]

As a voting American, this sums many of my thoughts on our candidates and this election

From Richard Marx on Twitter

@richardmarx: For me, this election is like deciding whether I'd prefer a Nike or an Adidas to kick me square in the nuts.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

:twisted: :spit:

[BostonAngel]

How do you know this for sure? Do you have some statistics to back this up? You only have to look at the reactions of some of the hard core fans here to see that some people ARE disappointed. A lesser hard core fan may indeed throw the records out or not play or buy them anymore or not go to his gigs anymore. I certainly think that this is a possibility because of this association. If Romney wins I think that that is even more likely than if he loses.

I am one of those hard core fans. I don't know of too many people that could question that. I have always supported Meat. Rarely if ever have I been critical of him. I have always praised him and even looked up to him; A great actor, a great musician, an amazing performance, and a a wonderful human being, I thought. Am I now disappointed in him? I think I have made that very clear. I am disappointed in his endorsement of Romney, however if it were only that I could live with it. It was his pompous (in my opinion) and preachy attitude in the way he expressed it, telling people to argue with friends and family". That I may still be able to get over. His vocal performance when he endorsed Romney was extremely poor, and I am being kind in saying it that way. One bad performance I could forgive. However, along with everything else it makes me start questioning things. Of course then he has to go & delete all the video evidence of it, as if by doing that he can pretend the whole thing doesn't exist. Then when tries to explain his postition on FB, he says he disagrees with many of Romney's policies, yet still DEMANDS that we vote for him and fight with others to do the same. His explanations of his position, just baffled me even more. Then he has anything that is the least bit supportive of Obama or expresses the least bit of disappointment in his decision to endorse Romney deleted from his FB page.

I have had ALL of my posts deleted from his page. I started off being respectful and simply expressing my concern & disappointment. When I wasn't shown the couresy of having MY OPINION respected, I could longer show him respect since he had proven that it wasn't deserved.


I still love his music. It is hard to listen to the music of a man you once respected without having very mixed feelings. I am not at the point where i am ready to get rid of my collection. Depending on how this plays out going forward, it may come to that. I wasn't only a fan of his music I was a fan of him as a person. it is all tied together.

I am one of the die hard fans
I am very disappointed in the man

[AndrewG]

Very honest post by BostonAngel. It's quite sad it comes to this. I feel Meat has in the past done other things to alienate fans too. It's a shame. It's not even Meat's political choice I have a problem with it is how he has conducted himself (I very much agree with BostonAngel) is a bigger issue to me; bad singing and trying to get all evidence of his support now deleted.

I completely disagree with MarkS saying you are an idiot when you base your music listening on a person's political views. In my opinion one is an idiot for suggesting it never matters. 14 pages in, if it doesn't matter then why are people talking about it?

[BostonAngel]

To the people who keep harping on about the band members, no one held a gun to anyone's head and said "do this or die." They are all f**king adults, and they made the decision on their own to attend. Do they support Romney, who the hell knows, we won't know unless they come here and tell us one way or the other.

A job is a job, but I would imagine that anyone who didn't want to be involved did not have to be if they didn't want to.

WE are speculating about how the other band members came to be there.
We don't know if they were asked or told to appear.
This is a scenario to consider in the real world: If your boss told you to do something that was fundamentally against your beliefs & principles would you do it? Would you say YES and go against your beliefs? Would you stand up for your beliefs and say NO? How secure to you think your job would be if you went against what your boss said to do? In most situations that would put your job in jeopardy. Either way you are faced with an uncomfortable & and precarious dilema. As I said, we don't know if the band was asked to appear & given or choice or if they were simply told that they were appearing. It is speculation.

[CarylB]

the last time I had checked Meat's Facebook page almost ANY post that had to do with supporting Obama, being disappointed in Meat's choice to endorse Romney or anything that could be taken as anti Romney, even if it had been expresed with thoughtfulness and respect has been deleted.

At the time I posted that, less had been removed. They have cleaned up there today, although some critical posts aimed at Meat remain. So some less abusive may well have been thrown away with the bathwater of profanity and outrageous comments. C'et la vie. Personally I am glad to see his fan page back to some semblance of what it normally is.

So he gets to shove his opinion in our face,

Really? I thought this was at a rally of Romney supporters? He didn't shove my face in it, an although it made the news in the USA (and Meat has many fans outside the USA), no-one HAS to watch everything on the news. A rally is an event where those supporting someone DO speak out strongly and encourage people to rally support.

yet fans (and others) don't get to voice their opinion even when it is done in a respectful manner?

Yes they did, and if some respectful comments (and they were in far lesser proportion to the angry, abusive and threatening ones) got lost when threads with abuse scattered through them were removed, that's just one of those things. Many threads which started reasonably were dragged into the gutter by supporters of both candidates. Both Meat and Frances are busy people, and sometimes it will be easier to remove a thread rather than pick out individual comments. I started a thread with a supportive comment and later someone added abuse. It all went. I'm OK with that. Plus they were nearly all there for several days for those who are genuinely fans to read them. (I say nearly all because I reported some really disgusting ones to Facebook, and I think I was not the only one, and FB may well have removed them before today)

The way he is handling things on his FB page to me comes across as cowardly as well as hypocritcal and even borders on propoganda.

Your view, not mine. I disagree absolutely, and to remove abusive comments, even if a few non-abusive ones get lost is not propaganda.

He has given me one more reason to question his character and integrity with this endorsement and how he has handled the aftermath.

Meat's integrity and his character remain intact as far as I am concerned. In my view he has handled what followed the rally with dignity, patience, and courtesy.

Caryl

[CarylB]

It is speculation.

Which a moderator has asked us not to do

[MarkS]

I completely disagree with MarkS saying you are an idiot when you base your music listening on a person's political views. In my opinion one is an idiot for suggesting it never matters. 14 pages in, if it doesn't matter then why are people talking about it?

I make my music listening decision based upon the music, not the person singing it. If you are making music decisions based on politics than you are missing out on a lot of good music.

Like I said earlier, people need to get a grip and chill, and if Meat has alienated anyone as a fan, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Meat has made his political decision and a bunch of bitching and moaning from a few fans won't change his mind. Nor should his endorsement change your mind if its already made up

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[Julie in the rv mirror]

If that's the case, than I feel sorry for Bruce as well, because nobody, regardless of political alliance deserves this kind of crap

You're right, but it comes with the territory. I highly doubt that he goes home at night and cries about it. ;)

It was his pompous (in my opinion) and preachy attitude in the way he expressed it, telling people to argue with friends and family". That I may still be able to get over. His vocal performance when he endorsed Romney was extremely poor, and I am being kind in saying it that way. One bad performance I could forgive. However, along with everything else it makes me start questioning things. Of course then he has to go & delete all the video evidence of it, as if by doing that he can pretend the whole thing doesn't exist. Then when tries to explain his postition on FB, he says he disagrees with many of Romney's policies, yet still DEMANDS that we vote for him and fight with others to do the same.

I saw his telling people to argue with their friends as just plain old bluster- I didn't take it seriously for a minute, and I doubt many other people did, either.

I do understand your feelings, though.

[LP]

So while we're on the subject: maybe a softer vocal delivery might help these days? It's a criticism if you like, but it's constructive! I think we all want Meat to come off well at these events.

Thoroughly agree with this notion but I just don't think he has it within him. I don't know if its a hearing problem, physical fatigue or something psychological.

All this bending over and grabbing big notes right from the off - he didn't used to try that. He had control, subtlety and the ability to sing like an angel.
I'm sad. Sad for me as a fan. Sad for Meat and his legacy.

Don't care about the politics.

There are people here who will get cross for what I've said and there are people here who write a better argument than me but I'm bored of seeing those same names cropping up always defending his vocals. Its not all about the performance, its about that voice that grabbed us all by the heart and took us to another planet.

Luke

[CarylB]

I saw his telling people to argue with their friends as just plain old bluster- I didn't take it seriously for a minute, and I doubt many other people did, either.

So do I. It was entirely congruent with what I have seen at this kind of rally in the USA

[BostonAngel]

I make my music listening decision based upon the music, not the person singing it. If you are making music decisions based on politics than you are missing out on a lot of good music.

Like I said earlier, people need to get a grip and chill, and if Meat has alienated anyone as a fan, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Meat has made his political decision and a bunch of bitching and moaning from a few fans won't change his mind. Nor should his endorsement change your mind if its already made up

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

I don't make all of my music choices based on politics or character. Many bands I listen to simply because I like what I hear. Ask me about where they were born, their birtdate, who their current wife or girlfriend is, I couldn't tell you. With Meat is was different. I was a fan of both the man and his music. As I said as a fan of Meat Loaf it was all tied together. I had admired the man since Bat Out Of Hell came out. As human beings, when we are disillusioned by someone it is natural to feel disappointed & be upset. can get over it? This endorsement goes beyond politics. For many fans, it has called into question Meat's character, which is what made them pay attention to Meat in the first place. Am I the only one of his true, die-hard fans that feels this way. Absolutely not.

[CarylB]

There are people here who will get cross for what I've said and there are people here who write a better argument than me but I'm bored of seeing those same names cropping up always defending his vocals. Its not all about the performance, its about that voice that grabbed us all by the heart and took us to another planet.

Not cross .. although I think it's disappointing that this thread seems to be heading now to Meat's vocals, the voice has gone etc

I don't think I've seen anyone saying the vocals at the rally were good. I am one of the "same names cropping up always defending his vocals", and I have not said they were good. I have said that unfortunately he did this on the day he needs to rest his voice now. He is 65 and needs that rest. The two songs they did were not very good vocally, but not bad in my view. After those though, and then rallying the crowd, you could tell his voice was worn to hoarseness. This I say because I believe it to be true. It doesn't make the vocals great .. I say it because it explains why I believe this performance was not indicative of what Meat achieves on stage consistently still.


Caryl

[MarkS]

I don't make all of my music choices based on politics or character. Many bands I listen to simply because I like what I hear. Ask me about where they were born, their birtdate, who their current wife or girlfriend is, I couldn't tell you. With Meat is was different. I was a fan of both the man and his music. As I said as a fan of Meat Loaf it was all tied together. I had admired the man since Bat Out Of Hell came out. As human beings, when we are disillusioned by someone it is natural to feel disappointed & be upset. can get over it? This endorsement goes beyond politics. For many fans, it has called into question Meat's character, which is what made them pay attention to Meat in the first place. Am I the only one of his true, die-hard fans that feels this way. Absolutely not.

How the hell does endorsing a republican over a democrat, which is basically the same damn thing anyway, call Meat's character in question. Yea, he got excited and was a bit over the top, but you are reading way to much into a political endorsement.

With this election, bottom line, we are screwed either way. And if you don't believe me, just wait till Obamacare fully kicks in an see how that works out for you.

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[Sarge]

I was a fan of both the man and his music. As I said as a fan of Meat Loaf it was all tied together. I had admired the man since Bat Out Of Hell came out.

For a long time, fans who dared to say that they were more interested in the music than in the man have been heavily criticized and accused of not being "true fans". They were labelled "haters" and "enemies". If you didn't unconditionally support everything Meat Loaf said or did, whether it was related to his music or not, you had to prepare to take flak. Now we're told to separate the music from the man. Puzzling.

[TheDoode]

He is 65 and needs that rest. The two songs they did were not very good vocally, but not bad in my view.

I'm sorry Caryl but I can't agree. If it's age related, it's certainly not the case with many of Meat's contemporaries of the same age (sammy hagar, alice cooper, even david lee roth is still just about recognisable). And as for the latter, and I'm saying this with no pleasure whatsoever, it was a bad vocal. Awful, in fact. And I'm not saying that to hate on Meat Loaf, or to make him 'feel bad', but to these ears it's true, and it's something I hope Meat Loaf can get some help with.

[AndrewG]

Did anyone else think it was strange he performed "Break It" at the rally? It's probably the worst Steinman song I think he has performed. :-(
I think it would have been a bit more fun had he done the usual stuff maybe Bat and both Frying Pan. Maybe not so much of a political statement but certainly more entertaining and probably a bit easier for him vocally to get right and ultimately would have made more of an impression.

[CarylB]

For many fans, it has called into question Meat's character, which is what made them pay attention to Meat in the first place. Am I the only one of his true, die-hard fans that feels this way. Absolutely not.

Sorry, but again, really? I would have put money on most people paying Meat attention in the first place to hearing him sing. I know I did, and I really don't believe I'm in a minority there. I'd also think that a large part, arguably the majority, of those who buy the albums and go to the shows, go for the performance, and many have only a sketchy idea of his character.

Yes, I like the man, I respect him, but contrary to what some here believe, I have never put him on a pedestal, nor expected him to always do as I would want. He's human and I give him permission to be that, to make choices I might not make, to have interests and passions I don't have, and to sometimes make mistakes or even disappoint me. That's what people do. People to me are like a jigsaw, and I don't try and change a piece of that any more than I would try and change a piece of The Haywain .. I simply enjoy the whole picture for the pleasure it gives me. And even if they disappoint me sometimes, it doesn't change who they are as a whole. I have followed Meat and seen how he behaves for long enough to know that those qualities I admire and like he has in good measure still. So I still like him as a person, and will still enjoy any interaction I have with him. And nothing changes the music or the performance for me, nor the passion in his delivery, his energy on stage, his determination to give me the best show he can.

Caryl

[CarylB]

I'm sorry Caryl but I can't agree. If it's age related, it's certainly not the case with many of Meat's contemporaries of the same age (sammy hagar, alice cooper, even david lee roth is still just about recognisable).

Then I'll say at 65 MEAT needs that vocal rest between shows. He is not Sammy Hagar, Alice Cooper etc .. and his voice is different, as is he. And when he gets the rest he needs at 65, his vocals are good.

It gives me no pleasure to say the vocals at the rally were not good. I simply understand why, and know they are not indicative of his performances on stage on tour.


Caryl

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: [mod hat]

In all fairness, I think there's quite enough being debated on this thread without adding the general state of Meat's singing voice these days to the mix.

OK, the performance in question is somewhat relevant to the thread, but can we please confine discussion of his voice to the performance at the rally.

I do not agree with everything said on the thread, but i've found it an interesting exchange of ideas and points of view.
I wouldn't like to see the thread locked because it turns into an off topic battle about Meat's singing abilities.

[/mod hat]

[The Flying Mouse]

For a long time, fans who dared to say that they were more interested in the music than in the man have been heavily criticized and accused of not being "true fans". They were labelled "haters" and "enemies". If you didn't unconditionally support everything Meat Loaf said or did, whether it was related to his music or not, you had to prepare to take flak. Now we're told to separate the music from the man. Puzzling.

:twisted: As I said earlier in the thread, I was told by a member recently that my world was too full of Meat Loaf, yet this fan went bat shit becuase Meat endorced Romney. I don't care about Meat's politics.
So which of us in more invested in Meat as a person?

So people who love Meat as a man now say just care about him muic, and the people who just care for him as an artist now voice concern about his personal political views.
It's a two way street.

It's a mad mad world :wtf:

[The Flying Mouse]

Yeah... except that it's not really off topic at all, since this thread covers the event and Meat Loaf did perform there. Suggest splitting the thread rather than locking it, if you feel the need to do so.

:twisted: Read my post again.
The performance in question is on topic. Comments on the state of Meat's voice these days in general aren't.

As long as convo sticks to the rally (including that one performance) there shouldn't be a need to lock or split.

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: For the record, and posts arguing the general state of Meat's voice will be deleted without prior notice.

I'd like to keep this open.

Right, time for food :mrgreen:

[robgomm]

I'm sorry Caryl but I can't agree. If it's age related, it's certainly not the case with many of Meat's contemporaries of the same age (sammy hagar, alice cooper, even david lee roth is still just about recognisable). And as for the latter, and I'm saying this with no pleasure whatsoever, it was a bad vocal. Awful, in fact. And I'm not saying that to hate on Meat Loaf, or to make him 'feel bad', but to these ears it's true, and it's something I hope Meat Loaf can get some help with.

Sorry but that is a really really poor point. You can't compare Meat with other artist of his age for obvious reasons. The most obvious reason is that I don't think there is any other artist out there that sings songs as hard on the voice as Meat Loaf.

I will tell you I am a good singer, i have a good range, and I can sing pretty much any artists songs, and i can tell you that whereas i can sing entire albums from other artists and bands, it's a struggle to get through Meat Loaf albums! He has undoubtedly the hardest songs to sing, and he's been doing it for 40+ years ffs! Of course his voice will never be the same as it was, he's had 3+ surgeries on it for a start, done so many back to back shows when he was advised that with these types of songs that are so hard he would damage his voice doing back to back shows, but he needed to capitalise on his success at the time and that's what the record companies scheduled him to do.

But when he's rested, and when he's well prepared and warmed up, he can still blow other singers out of the water. He can still hit notes others can't. Just look at Bat on the DVD. The hardest notes for him to still hit from any of his songs are the high C's at the end and he still can. Even Russell Watson can't hit them as i remember from when he sung with Meat that time.

Meat is 65, yet still charges around the stage like he's 35, doing incredibly hard song after incredibly hard song. After a show he has literally nothing left, and yet you really think he should be able to do a show the next day as well just as well as the night before?

[Paul Richardson]

Cannot agree with that. How many live shows have you been to on the last and current tour?

I'll try again since my original response to your question was first edited and then deleted ... :twisted:

Trying to stay ON topic, Meat's performance at the rally was far from his best, and while you may have gone to many more shows than I recently, it doesn't mean my opinion is necessarily wrong !

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: And i'm locking this till i've had my did dins.

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: OK, the burning issue first.
I had southern fried chicken, it was very nice, thank you :mrgreen:
(I can't help thinking this post would have got more likes if I had put some bacon into the mix :bleh: )

Right.
It might be "ignorant" not to consider the performance in wider context, but we know what will happen. It'll turn into a debate on weather Meat can still sing or not. Rows will start over it, posts will be reported, edit will follow edit, and the post will lose it's meaning and end up locked.

Like it or not, we know that's what's going to end up happening.

That's why i've said to discuss the performance at hand (as well as the issue of Meat's endocement of Romney.

This thread has got debate enough for us all without adding "has Meat still got it" into the mix.

I'm going to try and clean the thread up a little to bring things back to the discussion at hand.

No, it's not perfect, and I don't want to surpress people's oppinions, but it's the best option I can see to keep this thread on track and open.

This is a big issue that obviously means a lot to the folks posting here, and i'd like everyone to be able to have their say.

[CarylB]

.... ON topic, Meat's performance at the rally was far from his best

Which I have also said more than once. That I understand why doesn't make it a better performance .. simply that I do understand, and treat it as a single event

[Evil Ernie]

It might be "ignorant" not to consider the performance in wider context, but we know what will happen. It'll turn into a debate on weather Meat can still sing or not. Rows will start over it, posts will be reported, edit will follow edit, and the post will lose it's meaning and end up locked.


TBH that's what I was most concerned about.

We KNOW he can do better. His pipes may not be what they used to be, but with proper warm ups (and properly mixed with effects and possibly slight auto-tune) he can do a good performance.

It's just the fact that he could have NOT done it or at the very least keep it to low notes. He tried to belt it out and it sort of made him look foolish. It's like the equivalent of me doing an impromptu performance with an untuned guitar, That's why I made the comment about losing his wits, because as a professional performer he should know better.

I think that it's counter productive to just brush it off. I may critique the big guy, but I love him nonetheless.

[Evil Ernie]

For a long time, fans who dared to say that they were more interested in the music than in the man have been heavily criticized and accused of not being "true fans". They were labelled "haters" and "enemies". If you didn't unconditionally support everything Meat Loaf said or did, whether it was related to his music or not, you had to prepare to take flak. Now we're told to separate the music from the man. Puzzling.

Ha. Amen Brother.

I've always tried to separate the man(or woman)from the music or any other sort of art that they do. Especially these days when you know EVERYTHING that a celebrity does because of the internet...

[LuuuuvMeat]

How the hell does endorsing a republican over a democrat, which is basically the same damn thing anyway, call Meat's character in question.


Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner



Didn't we already go over this earlier in the thread?

[BostonAngel]

Didn't we already go over this earlier in the thread?

Over and over and over and over and over again. it's been gone over multiple times by several people, myself included. :roll:

[anotherday]

Brain....HURTS....OWW....UGH!

[Paul Richardson]

Which I have also said more than once. That I understand why doesn't make it a better performance .. simply that I do understand, and treat it as a single event

Well, understand this - I responded properly to your original post but it was deleted - so I can only make an edited answer...:twisted:

[TheDoode]

Sorry but that is a really really poor point. You can't compare Meat with other artist of his age for obvious reasons. The most obvious reason is that I don't think there is any other artist out there that sings songs as hard on the voice as Meat Loaf.

I will tell you I am a good singer, i have a good range, and I can sing pretty much any artists songs, and i can tell you that whereas i can sing entire albums from other artists and bands, it's a struggle to get through Meat Loaf albums! He has undoubtedly the hardest songs to sing, and he's been doing it for 40+ years ffs! Of course his voice will never be the same as it was, he's had 3+ surgeries on it for a start, done so many back to back shows when he was advised that with these types of songs that are so hard he would damage his voice doing back to back shows, but he needed to capitalise on his success at the time and that's what the record companies scheduled him to do.

But when he's rested, and when he's well prepared and warmed up, he can still blow other singers out of the water. He can still hit notes others can't. Just look at Bat on the DVD. The hardest notes for him to still hit from any of his songs are the high C's at the end and he still can. Even Russell Watson can't hit them as i remember from when he sung with Meat that time.

Meat is 65, yet still charges around the stage like he's 35, doing incredibly hard song after incredibly hard song. After a show he has literally nothing left, and yet you really think he should be able to do a show the next day as well just as well as the night before?

Oh I see, it's because Meat Loaf songs are 'harder to sing' than any other singer's songs. :roll: See, now I might think that THAT is delusional (along with the rest of the post)... but it doesn't mean I'm going to attack YOU over it (like you have done here, to me, in the post above). If you can't stay civil, all discussion's off.

I'll keep my own comments to the Romney performance in this thread, and make sure I don't prick my foot on the eggshells while I'm at it.

[R.]

I think this thread is done.