Bad For Good or Dead Ringer ?

[Paul Richardson]

Something which has bothered me for a long time ... given the fued between Steinman and Meat in 79/80/81 which led to two imperfect albums - Bad For Good and Dead Ringer - which do you prefer ?

Arguably Bad For Good has the best songs, as this was the original follow up to Bat Out Of Hell, and Meat was left with the second best songs when he walked away from this album.

However, despite Meat's vocal issues at the time, I much prefer Dead Ringer as the vocals are much better (at least its Meat throughout), and while it doesn't have the heights of Rock & Roll Dreams or Surfs Up, it doesn't have the depths of Dance In My Pants or Stark Raving Love.

While Bad For Good was largely re-recorded for Bat 2, Dead Ringer remains true to its time - a forgotten masterpiece - how underrated are songs such as I'll Kill You If You Don't Come Back or I'm Gonna Love Her For Both Of Us or even Peel Out or Everything Is Permitted ?

This is probably controversial - but what are forums for ... ?

[Evil One]

Answering this question will involve giving an opinion, and it's just not worth the hassle. :twisted:

[Monstro]

Thread reopened

[PanicLord]

Dead Ringer. I think it also has some awesome songs. IGLHFBOU is one of my favourite songs ever. REAW, IKYIYDCB, DRFL, and MTYD are also brilliant. Obviously, this album also has Meat who is a massively superior singer. I like the production, and though it could do with a decent remaster, really enjoy the album.

[Pudding]

Thread reopened

Makes no sense why it was closed in the first place :shrug:

I don't see how the songs from Dead Ringer can be classed as 'underrated' since the album sold around 5 million copies. Bad For Good sold considerably less and therefor the songs hadn't been given the same exposure.

As for Meat being given the second best songs for Dead Ringer, I disagree. Both albums have good and bad songs on them, I like and dislike them both equally.

[Wario]

Makes no sense why it was closed in the first place :shrug:

I don't see how the songs from Dead Ringer can be classed as 'underrated' since the album sold around 5 million copies. Bad For Good sold considerably less and therefor the songs hadn't been given the same exposure.

As for Meat being given the second best songs for Dead Ringer, I disagree. Both albums have good and bad songs on them, I like and dislike them both equally.

per everything above

In fact if the whole drama never happened, imagine this fantasy BFG:

Side A:
Bad For Good
Im Gonna Love Her For Both Of Us
Surfs Up

Side B:
Out of the Frying Pan
Read 'Em and Weep
Dead Ringer For Love
Left In The Dark

Extra EP:
The Storm
Rock & Roll Dreams

[Julie in the rv mirror]

That's a tough call for me, because I love both albums, but if I had to choose only one, I think it would be Bad For Good. A plus for Dead Ringer is Meat's vocals, but I like the songs on BFG better. However, "More Than You Deserve", "Read 'Em and Weep", and IKYIYDCB are three of my favorite songs, so those are points for Dead Ringer.

[Paul Richardson]

I don't see how the songs from Dead Ringer can be classed as 'underrated' since the album sold around 5 million copies. Bad For Good sold considerably less and therefor the songs hadn't been given the same exposure.

I think both albums are underrated in the sense that each could be viewed as the follow up to Bat Out Of Hell, and while both have some songs as good as the first album, neither achieved anywhere near the same success.

The four year delay, the parting of the ways and the diluted effort of two follow up albums compromised the (comparative) success of both.

[Paul Richardson]

Wario, exactly. Except mine would be:

Bad For Good
More Than You Deserve
I'll Kill You If You Don't Come Back
Rock And Roll Dreams
Dead Ringer For Love
Read Em And Weep
Out Of The Frying Pan
Left In The Dark
I'm Gonna Love Her For Both Of Us
Surfs Up

More than would fit on an LP at the time, but what the hell.

[allrevvedup]

I think both albums were stuck in that late 70's sound, which in 1981 would have made it much tougher to be appreciated.

I'm sure I have a thread somewhere here from a few years back entitled Renegade Angel asking what songs people would take from each album to make one in the form of Renegade Angel

[mib]

Makes no sense why it was closed in the first place :shrug:

I don't see how the songs from Dead Ringer can be classed as 'underrated' since the album sold around 5 million copies. Bad For Good sold considerably less and therefor the songs hadn't been given the same exposure.

As for Meat being given the second best songs for Dead Ringer, I disagree. Both albums have good and bad songs on them, I like and dislike them both equally.

I'd have to agree with Pudding's last statement about like and dislike them equally.

[youngJB]

Tough to say. I think Dead Ringer is the ultimate teen angst album of all time. And it has More Than You Deserve, which is my favorite Steinman song ever. HOWEVER, I think Bad For Good is better produced, and by the two minute marker on Rory Dodd's Surf's Up, that becomes apparent.

Neither album is perfect, but Meat sings on Dead Ringer, so that's what I'd go with.

[Mr. Happy]

They're both good albums. IMO, Bad for Good is probably a little bit better than Dead Ringer. The production was a lot better, and I think the guitar on parts of Dead Ringer (I'll Kill You If You Don't Come Back mostly) let it down. Love the second half of that song, the first half...neither here nor there. I want to here a Jim production of that one as much as I want to here certain other songs properly recorded and released.

Songs overall on Bad for Good were far superior to Dead Ringers (with the exception of Dance in My Pants). IMO (IMO), Dead Ringer only had one amazing, legendary, orgasmic songs, which was Read Em and Weep. Dead Ringer and Peel Out come close, while IKYIYDCB could have been right up with REAW if it had the right production.

In comparison, pretty much every song on Bad for Good was at the legendary standard (Surf's Up above and beyond that). Dance in My Pants let it down a little bit, as did the Lost Boys verse of Stark Raving Love, but, IMO, the rest was amazing.

Not knocking just how amazing Dead Ringer was, but Bad for Good was the better album. A combined album, with the best of each (Renegade Angel)... :(

[renegadeangel]

I think that everyone needs to remember two points:
DEADRINGER came about after Meat got his voice back and Jim was already deep into the vocal work on BFG. Jim and Jimmy Iovine did all the production on the backing tracks. Meat and Stephen Galfas did the vocals and probably a bit more production.
Jim wanted DEADRINGER to sound nothing like BAT or BFG as it was direct competition for his own album.
Meat was right about BFG in when he said that he didn't want to do a second copy of BAT which really is all BFG is. There is no real musical difference especially when you compare the songs.
Bad for Good is an attempt at another Bat out of Hell
Lost boys is an attempt at another Heaven can wait, right down to the neverland references
Stark Raving Love is an attempt at All Revved Up
Dance in my pants is an attempt at Paradise

Two songs that really stand out were surfs up and out of the frying pan
Rock and roll dreams was supposed to be on Dead Ringer but was traded to Meat for the song Dead Ringer.

The second point is the vocals. Dead ringer's vocals are not great and Meat sounds a lot better on MATLAF. But Meat still manages to make the feelings come through for each song.
Steinman's vocals are so bad that even he couldn't handle some of the songs. Rory Dodd had to fill in. There are really only two songs on BFG that work for Steinman's vocals and they are BFG and Left in the Dark. The rest are iffy.
The only question that I have is will Meat ever release his original version of Rock and Roll Dreams, that he recorded for Dead Ringer but never used?

[A Slice Of English]

I prefer Meat's versions of BFG and Left In The Dark. I really like Stark Raving Love and would love to hear a Meat version of it.

[Pudding]

I think that everyone needs to remember two points:

I don't think people need to remember two points at all :nope: they either do or don't like the albums regardless of what history surrounds them.

[BostonAngel]

Answering this question will involve giving an opinion, and it's just not worth the hassle. :twisted:

I couldn't have said it better myself. I totally agree!

[renegadeangel]

I don't think people need to remember two points at all :nope: they either do or don't like the albums regardless of what history surrounds them.


Very true. However, the history is interesting and when they first came out I had a hard time deciding which was better. Now that almost thirty years have passed it is easier to break them down.

[Evil One]

One has some great songs, some good songs and a couple of poor songs, and features some iffy vocals. The other has some great songs, some good songs and a couple of poor songs, and features some iffy vocals. :shrug:

[Paul Richardson]

One has some great songs, some good songs and a couple of poor songs, and features some iffy vocals. The other has some great songs, some good songs and a couple of poor songs, and features some iffy vocals. :shrug:

So, an opinion is still just not worth the hassle ?! ;)

[besty]

I prefer Meat's versions of BFG and Left In The Dark. I really like Stark Raving Love and would love to hear a Meat version of it.

This is what messageboards are all about..opinions.

In this case I couldn't disagree more with "slice".

I hate hate hate HATE stark raving love!

And think meat's bad for good is too slow and the piano is awful, and although the wttn version of left in the dark has a better sounding vocal than jim's, it really lacks a lot of the passion for me, and also lacks almost all of the spoken part!

However meat completely owns frying pan.

For what it's worth, I find myself listening to dead ringer more then bad for good for two reasons, those being meats strained but still sometimes brilliant vocal ( read em and weep) and the iovine production. The production on read em and weep really stands the test of time even now, almost thirty years down the tracks. Especially the crisp sound of the drums, contrast that to the garbled sounds on bad for good if you will.

[Wario]

However meat completely owns frying pan.



Truer words were never spoken

[Pudding]

Truer words were never spoken

Not true.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

I hate hate hate HATE stark raving love!

And think meat's bad for good is too slow and the piano is awful, and although the wttn version of left in the dark has a better sounding vocal than jim's, it really lacks a lot of the passion for me, and also lacks almost all of the spoken part!


See, I like Stark Raving Love. :lol:

I like the music on Jim's BFG, but Meat's vocal; the two together would be perfect. And I think Jim's Left in the Dark is the one that best conveys the emotion in the song.

[A Slice Of English]

Such is the beauty of music, I feel. No other medium has the ability to elicit emotion from the receiver on such a personal level and yet with the intention of affecting the masses. I love it.

[Mr. Happy]

Stark Raving Love is one of my favorites from Bad for Good :D It's a sleazier take on All Revved Up (someone mentioned something along those lines above). If the drums weren't so weak, the vocals were stronger (of all the songs for you to hate, Meat :() and the Lost Boys verse was cut out, it would be perfect

[allrevvedup]

Stark raving love, imo, is horrible it does nothing for me

[Pudding]

Stark raving love, imo, is horrible it does nothing for me

That's a 'skip it' track for me.

[Paul Richardson]

I've just listened to Stark Raving Love for the first time in years - its just awful - from the 'Holding Out For A Hero' intro and riff which is way too big / too good for the rest of the song to the bizarre 'Lost Boys And Golden Girls' verse in the middle.

It sounds as near to 'filler' as Steinman has ever come.

Personally I don't see how its related to All Revved Up at all - other than its about frustration (but then a lot of Steinman's songs are about frustration) ?

[Evil One]

Stark Raving Love was not Steinman's finest hour. In fact recording Bad For Good was not his best decision. This was discussed recently here:

http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15741

and my thoughts have not changed.

[nikox1]

Dead ringer was better imo, mainly because Meat can sing and Jim,, well cant!!
but then Meat cant write songs, so

[Pudding]

There's a poll opportunity for Wario, What's worse, Jims singing or Meats songwriting?