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Rabe
09 Jun 2003, 08:34
Hrmmmmm.....


I've gotten some concerns from people, over email and such, about David's ability to be an effective moderator. It seems that some people are somewhat curious why it would be allowed for anyone to act as a moderator whose very nature and antics seem to do nothing but stir up trouble and try to besmirch the reputation, so repeatedly, of a single person.

I would like to speak onto the ORIGINAL email that was sent to the JimList, only a TINY portion of which was posted here by Toadcheese.

Here is the entire mail sent out by Caryl:


"----- Original Message -----
From: Caryl Burton
To: jim@gospel.iinet.net.au
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 3:19 PM
Subject: Mercury and Meat Loaf Market Research



How often is it that Meat fans discuss which songs they'd like to see added to releases? Well, his recording company is now asking us! Mercury is gearing up for its next Meat Loaf single release and asked me if I'd front the market research on the ROL website. So anybody who'd like to participate hit this link:


http://www.republic-of-loafdom.com/main/NewSingle.htm


Your replies go straight to Mercury's Product Manager. I'd stress that this release will be the next one from the new album CHSIB, but you'll see that there's some Steinman relevance when you see the questions, and I know there are many Meat fans on the list. Given this kind of rsearch doesn't come to us that often I want to reach as wide an audience as possible and get a good response which encourages the company to think about doing this again.

And everyone who sends in a form is entered in a draw for one of 5 autographed copies of the new album :)

Caryl
"

So, as anyone with even moderate intelligence can plainly see that the form is hosted on the RoL site and not the Mercury site, nor any of it's affliates, which gives someone the reasonable assumption that the forms must go somewhere.

Nor does it ever say that the results would go directly to the Project Manager, but rather go straight to him. This may not seem like much of a difference, but it is.

What it boils down to is whether or not people trust Caryl enough that when she says she was contacted by someone in Meat's association to do something special for the fans, or if people want to try to find some prickly little thing in order to try to continue their campaign of harrasment and belittlement of someone they personally don't like.

I, for one, am saddened to see that the people around here at the MLUKFC continue to allow this to happen and when they eventually do, reluctantly, begin to investigate the claims brought up against Ms. Burton have to admit her innocence and still fail to offer even the simplest of apologies.

And now they allow one of the very same people who continues this harrasment the power and ability to officially carry off this continued harrassment is shocking. To wit that he tries to create the illusion of impropriety and dishonesty on the part of Ms. Burton by the careful cut and paste of a single line out of an entire message post shows what very little character he has. He then further continues to impound his character flaw by alluding to the number of people contacting him, privately, on this subject and then says that his personal ethical code will not allow him to divulge private email sent from others, which I know to be untrue after observing his behavior in the past. I find the sudden development of this ethical code to be somewhat spurious and convenient.

I have been contacted through email concerning this issue, and many others, that continue to come up. It would seem this forum, to someone who lurks a great deal, is more about creating derision in the fanbase than it is supporting the talent and career that is Meat Loaf.

How very, very, very sad.

It makes me wonder what kind of place this is for a fan? I'm used to the derision of fans due to my long involvement and association with the Jimlist, but at least over there we don't go out of our way to try to besmirch others, we allow them to fall into their own shyte. Over there we don't allow the moderators and such to be able to continue on in such a manner.

So, I've had to finally come out of lurkdom because of this latest round of naseauting bull malarky...that is once again, apparently, sanctioned by the leaders of this forum.

How very, very, very sad.

It's sad enough to make you cry.

Rabe...
...who wonders, is there any sort of improvement going on over here?

Shane
09 Jun 2003, 09:50
What it boils down to is whether or not people trust Caryl enough that when she says she was contacted by someone in Meat's association to do something special for the fans, or if people want to try to find some prickly little thing in order to try to continue their campaign of harrasment and belittlement of someone they personally don't like.

I have no reason to not trust Caryl. Market research of this kind doesn't surprise me, as I've encountered it before (with another band). I am surprised, however (as Caryl herself has said) that they approached ROL. But I'm not complaining about Mercury's decision to carry out market research or about their choice of website to handle it. I'm just grateful that we have the opportunity to give our opinion. Thanks are due to both parties (Mercury and ROL) for this. I'm taking this move by Mercury as a sign that they are going to try harder in promoting the next single (as opposed to CHSIB in which 6000 or so singles were actually made, and promotion was lacking). So I'm very happy.

I, for one, am saddened to see that the people around here at the MLUKFC continue to allow this to happen and when they eventually do, reluctantly, begin to investigate the claims brought up against Ms. Burton have to admit her innocence and still fail to offer even the simplest of apologies.

And now they allow one of the very same people who continues this harrasment the power and ability to officially carry off this continued harrassment is shocking. To wit that he tries to create the illusion of impropriety and dishonesty on the part of Ms. Burton by the careful cut and paste of a single line out of an entire message post shows what very little character he has. He then further continues to impound his character flaw by alluding to the number of people contacting him, privately, on this subject and then says that his personal ethical code will not allow him to divulge private email sent from others, which I know to be untrue after observing his behavior in the past. I find the sudden development of this ethical code to be somewhat spurious and convenient.

Unfortunately, a common tactic in debate is the `selective memory' of the debaters. They conveniently forget things, or give the truth but not the WHOLE truth, which has a misleading effect. However, I should state that I have not been closely following the debate re Mercury/ROL market research, although I am aware of it, so this particular comment of mine does not necessarily apply to that.

Regarding the issue of exactly how the form responses were getting to Mercury (directly or via Caryl), and whether or not Caryl made it clear how this was happening, I consider this point minor and hardly worth debating. Any debate on this I consider nitpicking. I can't quite make out why Caryl's ability to be trusted is being called into question. Perhaps she didn't make it clear at first that form responses were going via her, or perhaps her initial comments about how the forms were getting to Mercury were being misinterpreted. I believe it is one of these. I don't care HOW they get to Mercury, as long as they get there somehow. They are being sent on to Mercury, so they are getting there, that's the important thing.

mariella
09 Jun 2003, 10:01
I would like to say, I enjoy both ROL and MOTS. Two very different sites, ROL has an amazing entertainment-suite, Love the cards! And many more things, some still to discover for me.
MOTS is like my morning-paper, if I want to know 'the latest news' I usually will find it there.

All people involved with these sites love ML.
Now WHY can't we all just enjoy both sites? Say 'thank you' for all this hard work by all these people and focus on what's important.

MEAT LOAF

Do understand the people involved feel the need to talk about this.
But I look at it like this.
David didn't lock the 2nd topic.
Caryl posted on Saturday at 4.41 pm at this forum, the forms would be send to Mercury by ROL. And I do understand why there would be any doubt about her sending them in the first place. She wants to help in any way she can.
I think David does too.

I think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

Please, 'fighting' is NOT helping Meat our any of us!

Send you lots and lots of love,

Mariella

mariella
09 Jun 2003, 10:11
I would like to say, I enjoy both ROL and MOTS. Two very different sites, ROL has an amazing entertainment-suite, Love the cards! And many more things, some still to discover for me.
MOTS is like my morning-paper, if I want to know 'the latest news' I usually will find it there.

All people involved with these sites love ML.
Now WHY can't we all just enjoy both sites? Say 'thank you' for all this hard work by all these people and focus on what's important.

MEAT LOAF

Do understand the people involved feel the need to talk about this.
But I look at it like this.
David didn't lock the 2nd topic.
Caryl posted on Saturday at 4.41 pm at this forum, the forms would be send to Mercury by ROL. And I don't understand why there would be any doubt about her sending them in the first place. She wants to help in any way she can.
I think David does too.

I think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

Please, 'fighting' is NOT helping Meat our any of us!

Send you lots and lots of love,

Mariella

I am SO sorry!! Wanted to edit my first message. Saw I wrote I DO understand why there would be any doubt about her sending them in the first place.
Ofcourse I meant I DON'T understand!!! Sorry, but when I tried to edit this, I posted a new message. One that could 'heat' things up again.
Which was exactly what I didn't want. :lol:

Once again, sorry, don't know how to remove this either. :oops:

CarylB
09 Jun 2003, 17:56
Mariella said:
I think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

Arguably so, although I didn't pick up the trumpet :)

I believe I had explained exactly what had occurred, assured people that it would be taken care of when Mercury's offices opened today, and said that all the forms had been sent to Mercury. I don't believe I have done anything in this forum, or indeed anywhere else, to cause people to think I would perpetrate a fraud, would knowingly mislead people, or am in any way lacking in integrity and trustworthiness. I am always clear and up-front in my communication with people. I have ethics and can spell them.

I would be taken aback if I were subjected to language intended to hurt and flame on a personal level by any Moderator of any forum. I was extremely taken aback by the pejorative language and tone used on this occasion. I have never had such words applied to me before. I cried.

I responded to the behaviour. I was hurt and upset. I regret I responded rather than reporting the behaviour. However, like many when under attack I tend to defend myself. However, cruel words may hurt, but if one believes they are false one can discount them.

Mercury are very pleased with the response. The project is intact. That is what matters.

Guppie
09 Jun 2003, 18:18
But Caryl, if you read the locked thread back: you were getting really nasty towards David.
Even if you were very angry that he told about doubts about the mercury thing: you attacked the person, not his words, but the man himself.

Well, that's how I read the thread. And remember: English is not my native language although I am getting better at it, reading here every day.

That's my last comment about the whole thing.
Now, can we please talk about Meat and music, otherwise it's no fun coming here again. :?

CarylB
09 Jun 2003, 19:11
Sorry Guppie, but I said I RESPONDED to the bahaviour. I said I was upset and wished I had not. Let's make no mistake here. I was attacked .. to be called someone who has violated people, is a deceiver and a liar is an attack; an attack on the person and their integrity. Make no mistake. No matter how one tries to dress it up.

This is a feedback thread not a lets talk about Meat thread, so that's why I have posted here.

I admit I attacked David, because I was attacked. I said I regretted it. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I maintain I do not expect to be attacked by people who are moderating. I hope you are never subjected to this, nor anyone else.

But if you want behavioural based feedback:
When I see the words "there was a vulgar display of deception on Caryl's part" and "someone with a website that claims to be as important as the Republic Of Loafdom would blatently decieve the entire Meat Loaf community in such a manner." I feel I am being accused in pejorative terms in a public forum, and this makes me feel hurt and under attack, which in turn makes me feel the need to hit back, even though it is not the best course of action. What would be helpful to me is if someone thinks I might have deceived people, whether intentionally or not, for them to ask me to explain what has happened.

Now that's textbook behavioural feedback. I've written a published book including the subject.