General rant about cig bans & tax issues.

[wolfy35]

I have many friends in the brewing industry and they dont tell me that the smoking ban is the cause of pubs going out of business.

They all say that the cause is Supermarkets. In my local pub I have to pay an average of £1.89 for a pint of Budweiser or £1.50 for a bottle, If I go to a "Weatherspoon" type discount pub I get the same for £1.50 / £1.25.
In my local Tesco I can get a 15 pack of 500ml cans of budweiser for £9.99, thats around 70p a pint.

The brewing industry is selling more beer and alcopops than ever before the difference is that more and more people are choosing by cost rather than visiting their local. This trend will only accelerate now that we are heading into a climate of economic instability and tightening budgets.

Its strange that I have not yet read anything on here about the large amount of non smokers that for years avoided going into a pub because they didn't want to go into a smoke filled atmosphere but are now customers of many pubs.

Only people that are so narrow minded to be unwilling to see the bigger overall picture of the decline that has been affecting pubs in general for years before the smoking ban came into force would blame not being able to smoke for the closure of pubs. Strangely enough the breweries that are selling more beer and alcopops than ever before dont seem to be complaining just issuing statements that they continue to support pubs in any way they can.

[Deb]

Good points wolfy

I totally forgot about the cost of drink and that's a huge reason many people I know don't go to pubs anymore.

And i'm also one of them that avoided them before because of the smell.

[Pudding]

Originally Posted by wolfy35

The brewing industry is selling more beer and alcopops than ever before the difference is that more and more people are choosing by cost rather than visiting their local. This trend will only accelerate now that we are heading into a climate of economic instability and tightening budgets.

Good point. On my most recent trip back to the UK I could purchase a box of 20 bottles of Grolsch for 7 quid at Asda, if I went to a pub I'd be lucky to get 3 bottles for the same price. Plus I could take a shit or piss at my own leisure and not worry about the state of the toilets, and I wouldn't have to suffer some deaf trout belting out a Bonnie Tyler song at the top of her lungs on some karaoke machine.

Pud

[Hypnobabe]

Originally Posted by Paul191

I knew it would on ly be a matter of time before the 'conspiracy theorist' jibes were coming out. Lacks facts? I swear I had 2 facts in my reply to Keb Lou.

I for one would have more confidence in your 'facts' if you would cite your sources...

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by wolfy35

They all say that the cause is Supermarkets. In my local pub I have to pay an average of £1.89 for a pint of Budweiser or £1.50 for a bottle, If I go to a "Weatherspoon" type discount pub I get the same for £1.50 / £1.25.
In my local Tesco I can get a 15 pack of 500ml cans of budweiser for £9.99, thats around 70p a pint.

The brewing industry is selling more beer and alcopops than ever before the difference is that more and more people are choosing by cost rather than visiting their local. This trend will only accelerate now that we are heading into a climate of economic instability and tightening budgets.

Can't believe this never came up before either. As most know I like my whisky, large one with proper coke in a pub is pushing £6 now, indoors it's under a quid.

Originally Posted by Pudding

Good point. On my most recent trip back to the UK I could purchase a box of 20 bottles of Grolsch for 7 quid at Asda, if I went to a pub I'd be lucky to get 3 bottles for the same price. Plus I could take a shit or piss at my own leisure and not worry about the state of the toilets, and I wouldn't have to suffer some deaf trout belting out a Bonnie Tyler song at the top of her lungs on some karaoke machine.

Pud

I do sometimes have dodgy singing issues when pissed indoors though

[Paul191]

Originally Posted by wolfy35

I have many friends in the brewing industry and they dont tell me that the smoking ban is the cause of pubs going out of business.

They all say that the cause is Supermarkets. In my local pub I have to pay an average of £1.89 for a pint of Budweiser or £1.50 for a bottle, If I go to a "Weatherspoon" type discount pub I get the same for £1.50 / £1.25.
In my local Tesco I can get a 15 pack of 500ml cans of budweiser for £9.99, thats around 70p a pint.

The brewing industry is selling more beer and alcopops than ever before the difference is that more and more people are choosing by cost rather than visiting their local. This trend will only accelerate now that we are heading into a climate of economic instability and tightening budgets.

Its strange that I have not yet read anything on here about the large amount of non smokers that for years avoided going into a pub because they didn't want to go into a smoke filled atmosphere but are now customers of many pubs.

Only people that are so narrow minded to be unwilling to see the bigger overall picture of the decline that has been affecting pubs in general for years before the smoking ban came into force would blame not being able to smoke for the closure of pubs. Strangely enough the breweries that are selling more beer and alcopops than ever before dont seem to be complaining just issuing statements that they continue to support pubs in any way they can.

Your the one unable to see the wider picture. I agree with a couple of points Neil made in his first post. That was probably too long ago for you to remember. Think it was something like 1409 pubs close in 2007. So, great for the local buisneses!

[Deb]

As a friend pointed out to me, the clamp down on drink driving over the recent yrs is another big factor in people not going out as much.

[RadioMaster]

Originally Posted by Pudding

Good point. On my most recent trip back to the UK I could purchase a box of 20 bottles of Grolsch for 7 quid at Asda, if I went to a pub I'd be lucky to get 3 bottles for the same price. Plus I could take a shit or piss at my own leisure and not worry about the state of the toilets, and I wouldn't have to suffer some deaf trout belting out a Bonnie Tyler song at the top of her lungs on some karaoke machine.

Pud

basically that's true, but you forget that you do not only pay for the drink itself, but for the oportunity to spend the time in the pub with your friends, etc. Nobody would go to a pub to buy drinks and take them home. A pub is not just a place of purchasing goods. You dont want lets say 15 friends staying half the night at your house, totally pissed, probably smashing some dishes and wracking the toilet. Id rather go to a pub in that case as well, it IS expensive, but once in a while it's a nice thing to do.

Another thing that didnt come up yet:
People say that pubs got so expensive, but have you been to McDonalds, Burger King, Subway, etc lately?
I went to Burger King on my way home last week, cause i was too lazy to cook. I bought, 9 of those nuggets and a small milkshake, and paid nearly 8€!
But still fast food restaurats are florishing, so good that theres 8 McDonalds and 3 Buger King in an 800m radius of the cologne central station (according to google maps)

So why are they doing that good, but pubs arent?

[Monstro]

The closing of pubs is not a new issue, although the rate has risen I'd be interested to see how this compares to growth in other leasure industries (Gyms health spa's etc) as the nation as a whole becomes more healthy in it's attitude.

And to prove it's not a new issue..

Pub closures
The government think-tank the New Economics Foundation (NEF) reckons the closure of community pubs is creating a 'ghost town Britain'. With the decline of local economies and the closure of 20 pubs a week, as well as loss of banks and shops, more communities have no access to essential local services.
One of the main drivers of closures is the current churn in pub operating companies: the giants such as Enterprise Inns and Punch are swallowing middling companies, with smaller ones grabbing their leftovers and the occasional Free House. Most of this activity is driven by private investment groups and banks.

A current example is Enterprise Inns, which has become the UK's largest pubco (over 9,000 pubs) upon taking over the Unique Pub Company. To satisfy competition rules, they have to sell 250 pubs: the usual rule is to own no more than 25% of pubs in any licensing area.

Enterprise Inns is selling the pubs to a new group, Admiral Pub Company, for £62.6M. The Evening Standard (19-Mar-2004) said 155 of the pubs will immediately be sold on to County Estate Management, a pub and property company, with the rest turned into apartments and other uses.

[wolfy35]

Originally Posted by Paul191

Your the one unable to see the wider picture. I agree with a couple of points Neil made in his first post. That was probably too long ago for you to remember. Think it was something like 1409 pubs close in 2007. So, great for the local buisneses!

Strangely enough I do remember Neils first post and I take offence to your reference that I would not.

Yes pub closures have accelerated but at nowhere near the rate that sales by supermarkets have increased. Unfortunately again it all comes down to people voting with their wallet. People who really like pubs will always go there but the vast majority of people will go where they can get the best value for money experience.

At opposite ends of the road where I live there are 2 pubs. One a really nice older style pub with really friendly staff and good quality atmosphere the other is an impersonal major chain type with no charactor or friendly staff that because it is part of the major chain can do the price promotions. One is struggling to survive the other needs door staff to stop it becoming overcrowded.

Unfortunately the nature of all retail business be it a pub, greengrocer or butcher is that customers demand the product they want at the price they are willing to pay and if one shop/pub doesnt provide this they go elsewhere. Because of this it is inevitable that some very good pubs etc. will close through no fault of their own other than the fact that consumer demand has shifted.

The very nature of all business is that while you have customers and turn a profit you stay but when your customers go elsewhere and you make a loss you go. I personally would love to see some of the excellent local pubs that have had to close for lack of trade reopen but until such a time as consumer demand moves back to wanting this it simply will not happen and we have to be realistic and admit that more very good pubs are likely to close.

As far as related industries are concerned, Most manufacturers and installers of anything that can be used as a smoking shelter are having a field day now that all pubs need their products. I have a friend who has made sheds and garden furniture for years that says with the demand for smoking shelters plus the fact that pubs are now making sure that their outdoor areas are better furnished and maintained his biggest problems are getting enough good quality timber, materials and craftsmen to make his products.
Lest we not forget all the landscaping teams and gardeners that are now enjoying extra work because of pubs taking better care of their outdoor areas, its simply not acceptable to have the odd few plastic chairs or wooden table and call it a beer garden.
Yes we are losing jobs in one sector but jobs are being created in others to accomodate the shift in demand.

[~Helen~]

[djfierce]

Originally Posted by ~Helen~

lol you missed one

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by ~Helen~

Originally Posted by djfierce

lol you missed one

Can I remind you both, please, that the web staff here have posted several times in the post the very sound advice "if you don't like a thread don't read it"

If you are getting annoyed, frustrated, or bored with a thread, it is your own fault for reading it in the first place.


However I do think this thread has run it's course, and i'm going to take Jonty's advice.............

Originally Posted by duke knooby

lets have a poll... democracy lol

Meant as a joke, but actually a good suggestion

I think everyone has had ample time to bring up any points they think relevant, and had all the opportunity to argue their case.

We've heard the manifestos, now let's have the vote.

Poll will be added directly.

[The Flying Mouse]

Poll added.

Let's the votes decide

[AndyK]

OK, there's been a good exchange of views in this thread, but it's starting to spiral out of control a little. This is a general warning within this thread, the specific offender(s) will be contacted shortly.

Having an opinion is fine, disagreeing with someone else's opinion is also fine (and encourages healthy debate). But, if you can't disagree with someone elses's opinion without resorting to insults and patronising comments then please don't bother posting.

[~Helen~]

Originally Posted by ~Helen~

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Can I remind you both, please, that the web staff here have posted several times in the post the very sound advice "if you don't like a thread don't read it"

If you are getting annoyed, frustrated, or bored with a thread, it is your own fault for reading it in the first place.

I think the poll is a good idea everyone is entitled to their own opinion and a little bit of lively debate is healthy (excepting of course if it is made personal).

And I just wanted to add also that my emoticons were meant in good humour, no criticism or offense offended to anyone so I hope they weren't taken that way.

[allrevvedup]

Originally Posted by Pudding

I wouldn't have to suffer some deaf trout belting out a Bonnie Tyler song at the top of her lungs on some karaoke machine.
Pud

You've heard my singing then!

[Deb]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

If you are getting annoyed, frustrated, or bored with a thread, it is your own fault for reading it in the first place.

I'm actually very offended by that

[The Flying Mouse]

Why?

I'm merely pointing out the simple truth that if something bugs you, you should stop reading it.

Forum members are not required to read and comment on every thread, only on the ones they choose too, so if you find a thread that you find boring/annoying/irritating, you don't have to read it.
Just leave it alone.

However, it was not my intent to offend anyone by pointing that out, so apologies if any offense was given.

[djfierce]

to be honest my smiley was me being refrained and not getting into an argument, the actual subject isnt boring however the insults and jibes are getting a little too common place round here, and since i harp on about this site being so much better than the 'other' site in clamping down on that when i see stuff go out of control over there, i feel justified to feel a little dissapointed, couldnt find a i'm dissapointed no one has done anything yet smiley, sorry. Any new people reading these last couple of pages wouldve thought i was lying about the excellent moderation.

[The Flying Mouse]

Well, common respect didn't have long to live in this thread since we started replying "Bollocks" "That's complete bollocks" etc etc etc in reply to each others post, just because somebody else just happens to think differently (and sorry Anji, but I personally find yawning at what people have to say offensive, perhaps it's just me ).

Since coming online today, the volume of insult and disrespect has reached a level where I thought it best to lock the thread and let people say their bit by voting in the poll.

Unfortunatly, it isn't possible to have a poll still running when a thread is locked, so the thread has been left open with the hope that everyone will have the good sense to leave the posting alone.


This thread has been taken FAR too personally.
It's a debate on a forum, nothing more.
What is the point of a forum where adults can not hold an open debate without resorting to mockery of other people's ideas.

I think this thread has run it's course.


Thread, and poll

[AndyK]

Having finally stopped sneezing long enough to focus on the screen, this thread has been tidied somewhat. Unfortunately, even the mods get ill sometimes

As a general reminder to everyone if you see a post that you think is out of order then please, use the "report post" link on the post in question and someone will deal with it.

Normal service can now be resumed

[The Flying Mouse]

Well, in an epic bit of timing, it looks like Andy and I have posted at the same time, and he has now gone offline

I'm happy to defere to Andy on this one and reopen the thread, but again I would like to point out that this is a discussion on a forum, nothing more important than that.
No matter what side of the debate you're on, things should not be taken personally, and things should not be posted in reply that are personally abusive or offensive.

If anybody has anything left to say (and I think it's ALL been said here) please post it in a respectful manner which is neither insulting nor ridiculing what others have to say.

Thread reopened.

[duke knooby]

Originally Posted by wolfy35

In my local pub I have to pay an average of £1.89 for a pint of Budweiser

thats very cheap... 3 quid a pint last night

[Deb]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Why?

I'm merely pointing out the simple truth that if something bugs you, you should stop reading it.

Forum members are not required to read and comment on every thread, only on the ones they choose too, so if you find a thread that you find boring/annoying/irritating, you don't have to read it.
Just leave it alone.

Now thats fair enough, but that isn't what you said in the original post.

You said: If you are getting annoyed, frustrated, or bored with a thread, it is your own fault for reading it in the first place.

I find that offensive coming from a mod.

Thank you for reopening the thread Andy.