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Old 12 Apr 2012, 19:07   #26
Dave
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Originally Posted by evil nickname View Post
So I still stand by my original assertion that Meat got his facts wrong on this one.
Did he get his facts wrong or is his interpretation of the US Constitution differing from the legal precedent that has gone before? A very unique part of the US Legal System is for Judges to have the ability to interpret law, as well as steer law in one direction or another. Yes, the girl has freedom of religion and felt offended; however, depending on whether the school is "public" or "private" would depend on the level of freedom of speech the educational institution has for posting whatever they wish. As an entertainer, I have freedom of speech and can say whatever I want during my act; however, I must also put the intended audience's reaction into account when I write my material. There is nothing in the US law that says I cannot make racial slurs during my comedy act; however, for example, I must weigh loosing my audience if I make reference to the president's race and make off color references as such.

In the case of this school prayer, my personal opinion would go toward Meat's in this situation. If this is a private school, then leaving the prayer up on the wall should be totally upheld. The student/parent of the student has made a conscious decision to attend the school, and should have paid attention to what was posted on the walls prior to voluntarily enrolling. If this school is a public institution, the student/parent does not really have a choice - unless there is reciprocity of school district boundaries, which allow for students to "travel" outside the physical realm of the district where they physically live. Then the case should be up for further evaluation.

We could open up a whole new can of worms about the separation of Church and State with reminders that when Massachusetts converted from a Colony to a State, there was a state established church for quite sometime and no one said anything...but that is another can of worms for another thread altogether.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 23:51   #27
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My understanding of US law in the matter of separation of church and state is that public schools—as the one in question is, check the Wikipedia article mentioned earlied—cannot 'promote' any religion. I don't see how the audience's reaction factors into that.

Also: have a look the nice reactions people are sending Jessica Ahlquist.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 00:04   #28
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My understanding of US law in the matter of separation of church and state is that public schools—as the one in question is, check the Wikipedia article mentioned earlied—cannot 'promote' any religion.
The how come it was left on the wall for 50 years? That doesn't make sense?
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 00:22   #29
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My understanding of US law in the matter of separation of church and state is that public schools—as the one in question is, check the Wikipedia article mentioned earlied—cannot 'promote' any religion.
The brilliant Thomas Jefferson penned:

Quote:
"... I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
Does the legal precedent requiring the prayer to be removed not also impinge upon the freedom of other student's to exercise their religion? It is a two edged sword.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 00:48   #30
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The how come it was left on the wall for 50 years? That doesn't make sense?
I don't know. Perhaps there have only been good Christians at that school who took it for granted and didn't care it was illegal. Perhaps there were people who objected to it, but didn't file a complaint. Perhaps there were people filed a complaint, and the school board chose to ignore that. I really don't know. Does it matter? Having something somewhere for some time doesn't automagically make it right or how it should be.

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Does the legal precedent requiring the prayer to be removed not also impinge upon the freedom of other student's to exercise their religion? It is a two edged sword.
Probably not. From what I gather, US citizens are currently free and able to exercise their religion as they see fit, and the US government may not establish religion. But IANAL, and more details on the legal precedent can be found in the court's decision.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 09:35   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
The brilliant Thomas Jefferson penned:



Does the legal precedent requiring the prayer to be removed not also impinge upon the freedom of other student's to exercise their religion? It is a two edged sword.
How is taking down a prayer banner infringing on their right to practice their religion? Please explain.

If the religious want religion in school than I want Science taught in church. Theists feel that they are being persecuted, but they're really just not getting their way for once. It's amazing how the spoiled act like children when you take away their rattle.

Having that banner up is an endorsement of religion in a public building. Plain and simple. I bet you that they wouldn't find it cool if they put up an Islamic prayer right beside it as a consolation.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 23:43   #32
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If the religious want religion in school than I want Science taught in church.
Apparently you have never been to my church. I have learned about rain, the food chain, evolution and creationism and why they must go hand-in-hand, as well as how rain happens, learning that things live and die, and other scientific ventures - all of these have been presented to me directly from the pulpit during sermons, at various churches I have attended over the years.

Listen, I won't deny I consider myself a Christian Buddhist nor will I deny I consider myself to be politically Conservative; however, I will also not allow you to pigeon hole me into the stereotypes of people who hold my same beliefs. My best friends are Jews, Muslims, Cross Dressers, Ministers, Homeless....shall I go on?

I understand where Meat Loaf is coming from and you don't - no biggie. He has a problem with breaking of tradition, I believe that is where he is coming from. I have also done media blitzes like Meat Loaf did - not on the same scale, but have known I had like a dozen interviews where I knew the exact same questions were coming down the line. You rehearse your answer and pick your point of reference so you can come off pithy and succinct, yet sounding half way spontaneous, relevant, and hopefully on the positive side of intelligent.

Looks like we are going to have to agree do disagree on this one. There are matters of opinion and matters of salvation - this is opinion and the salvation is Mr. Loaf whose banner brought us all together across the cybersphere and for that I am thankful today.
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Old 14 Apr 2012, 03:53   #33
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Good, well thought out post.

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Apparently you have never been to my church. I have learned about rain, the food chain, evolution and creationism and why they must go hand-in-hand, as well as how rain happens, learning that things live and die, and other scientific ventures - all of these have been presented to me directly from the pulpit during sermons, at various churches I have attended over the years.
Interesting. So they teach Science in your Church? Do you mean actual Science or an interpretation from scripture? If its actual science, good on them

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Listen, I won't deny I consider myself a Christian Buddhist nor will I deny I consider myself to be politically Conservative; however, I will also not allow you to pigeon hole me into the stereotypes of people who hold my same beliefs. My best friends are Jews, Muslims, Cross Dressers, Ministers, Homeless....shall I go on?
I don't see how that was significant to my post. I wasn't talking about you. My point is that it wasnt about religious freedom to the jerks in RI, its about the promotion of Christianity in a secular country.

The only thing that I asked of you is how removing that thing was infringing on their right to practice their religion? For the record I think they're all equally ridiculous.

Quote:
I understand where Meat Loaf is coming from and you don't - no biggie. He has a problem with breaking of tradition, I believe that is where he is coming from. I have also done media blitzes like Meat Loaf did - not on the same scale, but have known I had like a dozen interviews where I knew the exact same questions were coming down the line. You rehearse your answer and pick your point of reference so you can come off pithy and succinct, yet sounding half way spontaneous, relevant, and hopefully on the positive side of intelligent.

Looks like we are going to have to agree do disagree on this one. There are matters of opinion and matters of salvation - this is opinion and the salvation is Mr. Loaf whose banner brought us all together across the cybersphere and for that I am thankful today.
I think that he could have just said nothing. Him bringing this up was completely spontaneous. It wasn't really the 'best' example of HIAH. He wanted to comment on it due to his own indoctrination into religion but he ended up sounding backwards and close minded. The banner was illegal.

There are lots of things that are traditions. I never understood the mentality that just because something is old means that it's better. There were lots of things that were traditions and than we outgrew them as human beings.

In the case of this it's a tradition which never should have existed.
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 03:19   #34
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Don't believe I got my facts wrong at all, you need to understand the law a little better. Church and state came all the way from the 14th century. What it means is the state can not tell you how you can worship. The dollar still says in god we can trust. The 2 people that took down that prayer interfered with the civil rights of many. The judge was wrong with his decision and the school system does have the money to fight it. Your right, the US constitution
gives you the right to believe how you believe. the ruling was a violation of the US constitution . bottom line .

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Re: that prayer on the wall thing. It appears Meat got his facts wrong. So unless objecting to a violation of the US constitution and standing up for what you believe is right is a sign of the world going to hell in a handbasket, I think it's a pretty bad example.

Given that this is one of my hobby horses, it irks me.
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 03:33   #35
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But what I was saying is that with so much wrong in the world and so many needing help I thought it was a selfish act by these 2 women. Again my facts are not wrong. I will stand up to any judge anywhere and argue the case. The reason the pilgrims left England is they were not allowed worship the way they wanted. The law is not about a prayer on a school wall , it's about everyone in that school has a right to believe how they believe, can't say Merry Christmas, can't put the 10 commandments on the outside wall of the capitol building. all people want to do is assume and not really read ,study, and understand. Why does the President attend a prayer breakfest. I see dumb people !! If they put a Muslim prayer next to the prayer that was on the wall for 50 years , I would say they have the right to do so. Separation of church and state is about the freedom to worship and believe what you heart tells you. Not to take away everything that says God From the world. If this case would have gone to the Supreme Court it would have been overturned.

Last edited by cowboy; 15 Apr 2012 at 03:43.
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 04:03   #36
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You are basing your opinion on Wikipedia . Wikipedia ?? Please go take a course in Constitutional law. I did in college, I was a History major . People are destroying the US
Constitution . There are prayers all over the walls of government buildings in Washington.
They won't go after those. They would be overturned.
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 04:05   #37
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Yes the world is going to hell in a handbasket !!! That judge is living proof.
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 04:09   #38
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I'm glad you all like Paul, everytime I say anything it's wrong !! Please change to Paul Crook UK fan Club, and no I am not upset with Paul in any way. There are people here who do not like me at all. I am very confussed. " Meat Loaf UK Fan Club" is that a joke I'm not in on.
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 04:13   #39
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If they put a Muslim prayer next to the prayer that was on the wall for 50 years , I would say they have the right to do so.
Exactly. Schools here give children a grounding in all faiths, and before anyone who is agnostic or atheist says anything against that, to me it's about tolerance and understanding in a multi-cultural society, where understanding others' beliefs is important to embracing diversity, rather than trying to suppress or remove it.

I still say Happy Christmas because that is what I am celebrating on 25th December, and I respect the right of others to celebrate Divali, Hannukah etc. There seemed to me to be nothing wrong with the prayer that as on that school wall, and I would have had more respect for someone who simply asked to add a secular piece which exhorted children to something worthy, or asked that another religious prayer be added

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Separation of church and state is about the freedom to worship and believe what you heart tells you. Not to take away everything that says God from the world. If this case would have gone to the Supreme Court it would have been overturned.
Agreed .. and I hope that would have been the case. There's enough negative and worrying stuff around to worry about in my view, before lobbying to remove a simple prayer because it doesn't fit your personal beliefs

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Old 15 Apr 2012, 04:20   #40
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I'm glad you all like Paul, everytime I say anything it's wrong !! Please change to Paul Crook UK fan Club, and no I am not upset with Paul in any way. There are people here who do not like me at all. I am very confussed. " Meat Loaf UK Fan Club" is that a joke I'm not in on.
Paul's great .. and you KNOW that there are far more people on here who enjoy your company here, and respect and love you and your work, than those who may not or who find fault with what you say and do You see the comments which are critical, and like most people don't like to read criticism and fault-finding. Just try to remember there are many more posts of support, agreement and care .. and enjoy those

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Old 15 Apr 2012, 04:54   #41
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There are people here who do not like me at all. I am very confussed. " Meat Loaf UK Fan Club" is that a joke I'm not in on.
*** hug *** ...

S ... xo
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 05:22   #42
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I'm glad you all like Paul, everytime I say anything it's wrong !! Please change to Paul Crook UK fan Club, and no I am not upset with Paul in any way. There are people here who do not like me at all. I am very confussed. " Meat Loaf UK Fan Club" is that a joke I'm not in on.
(( Hugs ))
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 05:24   #43
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I'm glad you all like Paul, everytime I say anything it's wrong !! Please change to Paul Crook UK fan Club, and no I am not upset with Paul in any way. There are people here who do not like me at all. I am very confussed. " Meat Loaf UK Fan Club" is that a joke I'm not in on.
Love you for your music, not always for your opinion. Just because of that doesn't mean the love isn't there.

Politics evoke a wide variety of emotions.

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Old 15 Apr 2012, 06:56   #44
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Yes the world is going to hell in a handbasket !!! That judge is living proof.

Your opinions are great to me. I think a fan club should consist of people who are a fan of the artist....but thats just me. And im probably going to get shot down for that, but it seems to make sense to anyone i've asked.

Last edited by stretch37; 15 Apr 2012 at 07:13. Reason: removed an exclaimation mark.....dont want anyone to think im yelling :/
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 06:57   #45
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I'm glad you all like Paul, everytime I say anything it's wrong !! Please change to Paul Crook UK fan Club, and no I am not upset with Paul in any way. There are people here who do not like me at all. I am very confussed. " Meat Loaf UK Fan Club" is that a joke I'm not in on.
Cowboy,

Can you find it in your heart to stay around for the people here that DO like you and your opinion? Please, what can we do to help the situation so you stick around and post?

RE: Paul. I think he's trying to help this community get back on track, so you'll enjoy your time here.

Suzieq

Last edited by suzieq; 15 Apr 2012 at 07:35. Reason: added a thought
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 07:49   #46
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Cowboy,

Can you find it in your heart to stay around for the people here that DO like you and your opinion? Please, what can we do to help the situation so you stick around and post?

RE: Paul. I think he's trying to help this community get back on track, so you'll enjoy your time here.

Suzieq
I absolutely agree Suzieq ... on both points.
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 09:02   #47
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Cowboy,

Can you find it in your heart to stay around for the people here that DO like you and your opinion? Please, what can we do to help the situation so you stick around and post?

RE: Paul. I think he's trying to help this community get back on track, so you'll enjoy your time here.

Suzieq
I agree as well.

This is a community full of good people. Yet many are not fans of Meat Loaf's personal opinions or attitude.....So Its hard. I don't want things to change around here because it risks us losing everything. At the same time, I don't want Meat upset. I'd much rather this place was a place he could call part of his team of loyal followers.

Nobody seems to have the answer to this issue, least of all me, I feel more helpless than anything.

And Sarge, I apologize for swearing at you the other day. I lost my patience and kind of went Busey because I've held my tongue many times with you before, and you always read into me the wrong way and it sucks. You didn't deserve what I said, and I although I'm still mad that you told me I'm forcing my opinion down others throats, I have felt bad since then. I can have a strong personality, but just because I have an opinion does not mean I won't like you if you don't agree with it. When I start to not like you is when you tell me im forcing it down others throats. I am not that type of person. If you don't agree with me, that ~~~~ing rocks. That's what makes the world great, difference in opinion. That's what encourages debate. Discussion is healthy, and thats what causes us to avoid world wars, by having that discussion. I was trying to do just that. State an opinion and hope to add something to it, not force anyone to do anything. Who am I to think I hold that kind of power? If I did, I would be the most self-absorbed prick on here.

Again, I apologize, and I feel bad, and I am sorry you felt I was too forceful. I'm currently in a really hard practicum at school, working, and was dirt poor for the last 3 weeks waiting for student loans. The stress got the best of me, and humbled me just as much.

lates.
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 09:43   #48
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I watched that Tavis interview when it aired, and again on this thread. When Meat brought up the topic of the prayer banner being taken down I remembered seeing that on the news, and the empty wall of a banner that hung for so many years.

That being said, I thought Meat was using that recent story (because it was recent to the time of the interview) as an example of how these people are focusing their time and energy to have it removed...rather than utilizing precious time in some other manner to promote peace. We have all this hatred going on...our country has been, and continues to be...attacked. Soldiers are dying...still. People are starving, homeless, jobless...I could go on and on. I see suffering on a daily basis as I work in a field of "compassion" as a Registered Nurse.

It seemed to me the example Meat referred to was not religious or politically intended. Perhaps a thought of a news story that came to mind as an example of THIS is what people are spending TIME on...losing focus on the HUGE problems the world and our country are facing every day.

Hence, the world has gone to "Hell in a Handbasket".

Coming into an artist's FAN site, twisting his statements, insulting his latest and brilliant album makes you a contributing person to the TITLE of the album ITSELF. Who does that? WHY? What purpose does it serve?

The screen name you chose is INDEED appropriate.

For what it's worth Meat...HIAHB has changed MY LIFE, my views, "the truth has set ME free"...and I felt as though Another Day was written FOR me. I do remember when my life was "simple".

I am trying harder to be the person God wants me to be, to enjoy each day as I open my eyes, to cherish every moment I spend with my children, to stop and smell the roses, enjoy LIFE...because you "cannot turn back the hands of time"...unfortunately...sad but TRUE.

"Give up or give it everything inside"...I'm giving it EVERYTHING inside.

I intend to THANK Meat, when I see him in July... for some extremely powerful lyrics, incredible music and an amazing album that truly has turned MY life around 180 degrees for the BETTER. I tried to do it in a PM, unfortunately it was never read.



Does being "Evil" feel good???

Being kind and compassionate feels EVEN BETTER! You should try it sometime.



Please stick around Meat!

Kar
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 11:01   #49
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One more thing I'd like to add...and I RARELY if ever...post personal problems on forums, FB, myspace etc. Perhaps I'm in the wrong "area" and this will be moved accordingly.

Thinking about this whole school, banner, religion etc....

Here's MY dilemma:

My 9yr old daughter the youngest of my five, my baby, my angel, precious and sweet. She has made honor roll every marking period, received the Citizenship Award, Student of the month, and I could wallpaper her bedroom with "Random Act of Kindness Awards"...she has so many. Loves school, loves her teacher.

Right up until 2 months ago when she was hit by a chair flung by a student having a "tantrum". I am told by the school this child has no mental or physical disabilities. Every day my child comes home from school...with the exception of when this student is in OSS (out of school suspension) she tells me another story of this young boy's "outburst"..the entire class has to leave the room, while teachers try to calm this boy down.

Multiple phone calls to the school, principal, and superintendent have resulted in "there's nothing we can do" the boy has "problems at home", "anger issues".

Now my daughter is literally AFRAID to go to school, has attendance issues..headaches, stomach aches etc. My hands are tied. I could of course choose to home school her...but I prefer she attends public schools for the purpose of learning and social interaction.

If my daughter was subject to witnessing the violence at home that she is seeing in SCHOOL on a regular basis...she would be taken away from ME by child protective services... period.

A banner can be over-looked, how does this mother and daughter spend money with the words "In God WE Trust"????? Rip it up? Doubt it.

This is a perfect "REAL" example of how the world truly is going to or has GONE to Hell in a Hanbasket.

UNREAL
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Old 15 Apr 2012, 12:00   #50
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Don't believe I got my facts wrong at all, you need to understand the law a little better. Church and state came all the way from the 14th century. What it means is the state can not tell you how you can worship. The dollar still says in god we can trust. The 2 people that took down that prayer interfered with the civil rights of many. The judge was wrong with his decision and the school system does have the money to fight it. Your right, the US constitution
gives you the right to believe how you believe. the ruling was a violation of the US constitution . bottom line .
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
But what I was saying is that with so much wrong in the world and so many needing help I thought it was a selfish act by these 2 women. Again my facts are not wrong. I will stand up to any judge anywhere and argue the case. The reason the pilgrims left England is they were not allowed worship the way they wanted. The law is not about a prayer on a school wall , it's about everyone in that school has a right to believe how they believe, can't say Merry Christmas, can't put the 10 commandments on the outside wall of the capitol building. all people want to do is assume and not really read ,study, and understand. Why does the President attend a prayer breakfest. I see dumb people !! If they put a Muslim prayer next to the prayer that was on the wall for 50 years , I would say they have the right to do so. Separation of church and state is about the freedom to worship and believe what you heart tells you. Not to take away everything that says God From the world. If this case would have gone to the Supreme Court it would have been overturned.
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You are basing your opinion on Wikipedia . Wikipedia ?? Please go take a course in Constitutional law. I did in college, I was a History major . People are destroying the US
Constitution . There are prayers all over the walls of government buildings in Washington.
They won't go after those. They would be overturned.
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Yes the world is going to hell in a handbasket !!! That judge is living proof.
I am really not sucking up by saying I believe Meat is right in everything he says here. It's a great example of people being plain selfish, I mean c'mon deciding to be offended by something that's been there for 50 years is just plain pathetic I don't care what anyone says.
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