General rant about cig bans & tax issues.

[The Flying Mouse]

Has there ever been such a stupid notion as the smoking ban?

The smoking ban was never going to be good for many businesses.
The main business affected, was of course the pub trade.
1409 pubs closed in 2007.
Or, to put it another way, nearly 27 pubs per month.
This is not a trend that seems to be showing promise of improvement.

The worse the weather got in the run up to winter last year, the more people were not prepared to spend all night nipping out for a ciggie.
Whereas you used to go to the pub, get rained on on the way there, but then stayed dry all night, you were suddenly getting soaked in the rain on the way to the pub, and then getting a fresh soaking every time you want a cig.

The result of this is that more people stayed at home where they could smoke as much as they please.
During these winter months, these people discovered they COULD have a good night in the house in front of the telly, with perhaps some friends round, and some cheap cans from the off licence, for a FRACTION of the cost to have a night out in the pub.
When the better weather comes back, why should these happy souls leave their couches and come back to pub life?
So that they can pay an arm and a leg to stand at a bar and still be relegated to smoking outside?


But it not just the pub trade at stake here, and this is where I feel the government have been very short sighted in what it has tried to achieve.


Although not entirely dependent on it, a big portion of a lot of cabbies wages come from people going on nights out.
But again, people are not happy to go into town in their best get ups, only to stand shivering in doorways of night clubs.
Sometimes there are issues of people being refused re-entry because they've gone outside for a fag.
And so the taxi game is suffering a massive blow because there are less people going out, and less people wanting lifts home.

Entertainment.
The entertainment game is also dying a death.
With pubs losing so much money, they have to do something to curb their spending.
Naturally, the first thing to go will be the karaoke on a Saturday, or the DJ on the Sunday, or the singer.
The fact that there are 1409 less venues to play since last year is bad enough, but the fact that entertainers are the first with their neck on the block is doing nothing for the industry.
Not just the entertainers are suffering here.There are entertainment agents who are not getting their fees because their acts have nowhere to work, and there are roadies who have no work because the act they drive isn't getting gigs.


Ashtrays.
Yep, you heard it.
Ashtrays.
Although not exactly a massive industry, somebody is paid to make those plastic ashtrays for pubs.
Or should I say were paid.
Somebody was paid to pack them.
Somebody was paid to deliver them.

The lighters and matches that used to be sold in pubs for crying out loud......


These might seem like trivial matters, but a lot of trivial matters can add up to one hell of a mess.



Now the big problem.
People who ARE still going to the pub are tending to smoke a lot less (my own smoking is less than a third of what it used to be in a pub) so that's a lot of tax that is no longer going to the government.
I find it very very hard to believe that the government, who are known to claim up to 80% in tax on a single pack of cigarettes, did not think of the massive hole that would leave in the tax income.
It appears that's what's happened
So what then is the logical solution?
You've lost money, you need to make more
INCREASE TAX ON BEER AND FUEL.

Congratulations, you've been screwed by your country again
England has always had a bad deal compared to most when it comes to paying fuel tax.
Now, with so much tax money lost from the tobacco industry, it's up to the beer drinkers and the drivers to put their hands in their pockets.



Predicted results?

Beer tax.
Higher costs of beer.
More people buying cheap cans and staying at home.
Adios to more pubs, professional entertainers and taxis .

Fuel tax?
You really have to feel sorry for the cabbies here.Everyone is out to screw them out of a living
Not to mention the average car owner who is spending more on fuel (which also leaves less free cash to throw away on that night out. Closing time for more pubs )




Seems to me that the smoking ban must be one of the great financial blunders of living memory

[duke knooby]

something vexes thee????

[The Flying Mouse]

Somthing would be vexing thee if you worked in one of the businesses mentioned above, or if you had any interest in the price of a pint of beer or a ltr of petrol

[Deb]

I understand where you're coming from Neil as you're a smoker and work in the industry. But I have to say that i really do love the smoking ban and from what i've witnessed it seems to be doing ok. granted there's all the lost taxes etc. But think of all the healthier people that have cut down or stopped I could stay on my soap box forever about this one and a zillion others lately lol.

[The Flying Mouse]

How can the ban be doing ok when so many pubs are closing, and the buisnesses around pubs are failing?
Let's see, on average 27 pubs per month closing.
Say each pub has 4 bar staff (most have more than that, but who's counting )
That's 108 bar staff put out of work every month.
I cannot say that that is a system that's working "OK".

My smoking has cut down quite a bit while i'm at work, but these days I only tend to go out when i'm working.
What's the point in going out with friends and family when I spend half the night outside?


And the tax thing?
Well i've already gone into that one well enough, and sorry Deb, with reference to the thread that prompted this one, you can't have the tax issue both ways

[AndyK]

I can see both sides to this argument so clearly (as there's less smoke now lol) ... as a smoker I don't mind the smoking ban pubs too much I can cope and not have to nip outside every ten minutes I know that there are alot of pubs, clubs and associated industries that have suffered as a result of this. There's no easy answer though really, whatever was doen (or not) woud never have pleased everyone.

[Battybarb]

There is never going to be an answer to keep everybody happy....at first our pub went quiet,but now it is just as busy as ever but i guess we are just one of the lucky ones because some around are closing down.

[AndyK]

Without taking away from the issue, pubs have been going to the wall for years though haven't they? Society has changed so much over the last 20 years that going to the boozer for a nigth out is no longer the thing it used to be ... the commercial rates that the service companies (breweries, electricity and gas suppliers, coucnil tax etc etc) are continuing to rise and pushing the publicans out of business.

The pub I used to drink in was run by a guy who could only afford to run it because he had an army pension, he said that if it wasn't for that income he couldn't afford to live off the income from the bar alone because of the charges he had to pay.

The smoking ban hasn't helped, but it's not the only nail in the coffin I don't think.

[Deb]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

How can the ban be doing ok when so many pubs are closing, and the buisnesses around pubs are failing?
Let's see, on average 27 pubs per month closing.
Say each pub has 4 bar staff (most have more than that, but who's counting )
That's 108 bar staff put out of work every month.
I cannot say that that is a system that's working "OK".

My smoking has cut down quite a bit while i'm at work, but these days I only tend to go out when i'm working.
What's the point in going out with friends and family when I spend half the night outside?


And the tax thing?
Well i've already gone into that one well enough, and sorry Deb, with reference to the thread that prompted this one, you can't have the tax issue both ways

I think you read my post TOTALY worng Neil lol.

Only issues I have here are the fact I can go out to eat / drink without being gassed and the other isue is I don't want to pay £120 + for petrol lol. There may well be lost jobs etc, but that wasn't what i meant by succesful, I meant I can go out and breathe and so can many others. The isnide world is a cleaner place and thats all that bothers me in all this i'm afraid

[djfierce]

Originally Posted by Deb

I understand where you're coming from Neil as you're a smoker and work in the industry. But I have to say that i really do love the smoking ban

yep sorry guys i know you're addicted and stuff but restaurants/pubs etc are much nicer places to be, as far as their business being affected, i know two landlords personally and they noticed a small drop in the first few months but are now back to norm, i dont think its too much to ask for us non smokers to be able to walk into a building without the smell of smoke choking the hell out of you,

[Deb]

Originally Posted by AndyK

Without taking away from the issue, pubs have been going to the wall for years though haven't they? Society has changed so much over the last 20 years that going to the boozer for a nigth out is no longer the thing it used to be ...

The smoking ban hasn't helped, but it's not the only nail in the coffin I don't think.

Totally agree here Andy. IMO one of the big turning points was all day drinking. It killed a lot of the social side of it. People went to the pub during the set hrs to meet up with friends. Once they introduced the all day drinking the whole dynamics changed

[djfierce]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

How can the ban be doing ok when so many pubs are closing, and the buisnesses around pubs are failing?
Let's see, on average 27 pubs per month closing.
Say each pub has 4 bar staff (most have more than that, but who's counting )
That's 108 bar staff put out of work every month.
I cannot say that that is a system that's working "OK".

Then the blame lies with the smokers who want it all their own way imo, i know lots of smokers who have qute gracefully accepted the ban and some even understand it, if others want to spit their dummies out rather than their fags then thats their selfish perrogative.

[The Flying Mouse]

It doesn't bother me too much either Andy.
I mean, it's a pain in the backside leaving the company every time you need a fag, but I don't find it too bad.
It's still not the kind of thing though that is going to twist my arm to go out to the pub more often though

What DOES bother me is that businesses are going broke over it all.
A lot of people have stopped going out as much which is leading to a dramatic drop in business for many industries.


As for inconvieniance, here's a little tale of a chap my brother picked up in his taxi on the run up to Christmas.........

John was hailed by a gentleman who was a little less than pleased
Apparently, this chap owned his own business with a main office here in Liverpool, and two out of town offices (I forget where they were, say Preston & Rhyl).

For the company Xmas do, this bloke booked the Adelphi hotel function room (it's quite a nice one).
For his staff from Preston and Rhyl, this chap payed for transport for them all to come to Liverpool, and forked out for hotel rooms for them all there at the Adelphi (not the cheapest place in town )
It's fair to say he'd spent a few quid on the whole shindig

While the party's in full swing, the gaffer goes outside for a drag.
On attempting to re-enter the premises, he is told by security that he can't come in because he was not a resident and it was after hours.
Explaining to the chap on the door that he had in fact paid for the whole sodding thing, as well as splashing out on rooms for his out of town staff did nothing to relieve the situation, so he had to sod off into the sunset, barred out of his own party

[RadioMaster]

after reading my following statement again, i noticed it might appear a little harsh.
Please note that none of the following is meant to offend anyone.
I dont (usually) have a problem with smokers, it's just a general annoyment at this discussion that speaks from the following post

We're cool Neil

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

oh for ~~~~s sake!

could you please for one moment look at the other side of the arguement?

For decades non smokers have been constatntly bothered by a level of smoke in pubs, that would actually justify the waitresses to wear gas masks (fact!), not even to mention the helth risks of second hand smoking, but i dont wanna get into a smoking: pro/contra debate here.

So for one second, could you please think of those people who finally can happily go out and have a nice night at a pub without coughing and suffering constantly?
But NOOO, that's not important, it IS however much more of a problem and a burdon to go outside the door, to the fresh air for five minutes.

That's exactly the thing that annoys me of the smokers arguements on this debate, they're just thinking of themselves, who have it SOOO hard.
Smokers are not a ethnical minority or an endangered species, it's their free decision to smoke, and if they want to, they can easily stay at home, but ffs stop whining about something that actually isnt really a problem.

A lot of countries have banned smoking from bars and are doing fine (Italy, Germany is in the process at the moment), its just that they have to think of some other business idea to keep guests coming....and that's the base of every economical system, isnt it?

It's just that everything that's new causes whining and moaning everywhere.

And for once, you could also try to see the positive side on this:

Healthier people
less tax money spent on the treatment of smoking-caused illnesses (not the right term, i know, but im too lazy to look it up)
more money in your pocket

On one point i agree with you though:
It's is a shame that the government (in the UK same as here) has to regulate everything. The government isnt everybody's parents, decisions as wether pubs allow their guests to smoke or not should be made by the pub owners and not the government.
Would be the same if the government would come to your house and tell you what you have to cook for dinner.

[Monstro]

I hated the smoking ban and to an extent believe there's still room for moderation as far as pubs etc are concerned but have to admit I've come around to it, anyone who smokes knows the risks involved and only a fool would think that smoking less is anything but better. I still miss a smoke after a meal but don't miss making non smokers uncomfortable and to be honest I gave up pubs before the smoking ban so no dif to me there.

Our flat's a smoke free zone for obvious reasons but I've got to admit I like it, first time in my life there's no ashtrays, fag ash everywhere and no stale odour. Can be a pain in the backside at work but same again, makes for a cleaner/healthier environment.

With regards to taxes yep they're too high but not just on booze, fags and petrol, we're a nation of whingers and moaners but when it comes down to it we do sod all about it and we've allowed a succession of governments to get away with it for too long to be able to realistically be able to do anything about it now. Only time we did anything was on the poll tax and that soon went away, then we just sat back and let them tax us in other ways. There are too many drains on our nations purse and not enough ways to pay for them, we moan because we can't have a smoke in a pub but are quite happy to have two or three generations of a family on benefits, we whinge when 10p goes on a pint and then sit back and watch news footage of our nation firing missiles at a £1,000,000 a pop. Personally I think the problem goes a lot deeper than most people think.

[Monstro]

going outside for a fag now lol

[AndrewG]

In my opinion if pubs are closing that is a shame for the owners and staff, however if it helps to cut down the tremendous amount of policing of drunk people in this country I think that is a very good thing. Perhaps the police can then spend time sorting out this murdering carry on which has spiralled out of control recently.
Look at other European countries, there is nothing like the policing of drunk people on this scale over there, in fact whenever I've seen trouble on holiday there has been British people involved, I really feel ashamed how this country deals with "coolness" of getting drunk. It's probably got a lot to do with me not being interested in drink that much but I've seen a lot of bad things happen cuz of the stuff, certainly when I was living in Glasgow and also being held at knife point twice, honestly it is not nice! I say tax drink more! Being able to drink 65p vodka cokes at Uni and Uni itself actually recommending getting pissed cheaply is not a good thing for many irresponsible people in my opinion at all.

[Deb]

Andy, M, Rj and Anji great posts

here's my shortened version of RJ's lol

I dont give a shit about the pubs going out of business, i care that less people are passive smoking.

All of you are far better off by not smoiknig so much and you allsmell far better

[djfierce]

Originally Posted by Deb

All of you are far better off by not smoiknig so much and you allsmell far better

Now dont get too carried away Deb ;P

[The Flying Mouse]

Actually, I don't have anything against restaurants or bars having separate smoking/no smoking areas.
And, as for myself, I don't mind going outside for a ciggie.
There's no need to apologize to me for being addicted, because going outside isn't too bad for me

What I DO mind is that we have had our rights to decide taken away by the nanny state.
I DO mind that smokers have left the pubs.
I DO mind that all the non smokers (and please, this is NOT a smokers Vs non smokers debate here ) who were used as an excuse i'e "Once the smoking ban comes in, all the non smokers will come out to play" have NOT come out to play.

For people in an affected industry, it's not for me to tell customers to "spit your dummy out if you like" .
It is not an option for people who work in a business dependent on keeping drinkers in pubs to say "if you don't like it, screw you".
It just isn't good customer relations


YES, there are exceptions to the rule.
Some pubs have actually done BETTER since the smoking ban came in.
Hey, salute, happy days
But most other places have suffered.


Now the health of bar staff in particular was a factor that helped the smoking ban get passed through.
And to a certain extent, I agree with that notion.
However, I believe it is up to the person themselves to decide if they wish to work in a smoky atmosphere.

For one, I have always that a pub should be allowed to have a smoking bar, and a non smoking bar.
This was done in the past, so why not in the future?

Any bar staff who wanted to apply to work at a smoking bar should be sent away with a DVD and booklet detailing all the horrors of what can happen through working in a smoky atmosphere.
This should be in depth, with input from doctors, cancer researchers, people in the pub industry, cancer sufferers.
When that person comes back, they should have the right to sign a paper saying they have read/watched the media and are in possession of all the facts about the risks they are taking, and they they accept those risks.


As I say, i've always believed a bar should be allowed to have smoking/non smoking sections, but let's take the idea a step further.

What would happen if a licence was created where landlords could allow their customers to smoke on the premises?

I predict 2 things.

1 - 97% of pubs would apply for a licence.

2 - The licence fee would go up and up every year.Just one more way the government of "wetting it's beak".



I think one of the biggest indicators of how bad the implications of the smoking ban were to be was this.

How long did Tony Blaire stay as Prime Minister after announcing he was stepping down?

How close to the smoking ban coming out did Blaire finally do a runner?

Coincidence?

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Now the health of bar staff in particular was a factor that helped the smoking ban get passed through.
And to a certain extent, I agree with that notion.
However, I believe it is up to the person themselves to decide if they wish to work in a smoky atmosphere.

Until that person gets a respiratory disease and then sues the employer because under Health and Safety Law an employer has a legal responsibility to provide a safe working environment, doesn't matter what employee signs.

[Deb]

[QUOTE=The Flying Mouse;413203
What I DO mind is that we have had our rights to decide taken away by the nanny state.[/QUOTE]

Well I didn't like the fact us non smokers (and our chiLdren in restaurants) DIDN'T have the right to decide before.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Monstro

Until that person gets a respiratory disease and then sues the employer because under Health and Safety Law an employer has a legal responsibility to provide a safe working environment, doesn't matter what employee signs.

This is what i'm saying Michael.
That it SHOULD be acceptable for somebody who is possession of all the facts to be able to sign a waver declaring that they are aware of the risks, the risks are there own, and they agree that their employer is not at liberty to take any blame for any illness that should come about through passive smoking.

Would you rather be given the option of taking responsibility for yourself, or losing your job?

Originally Posted by Deb

Well I didn't like the fact us non smokers (and our chiLdren in restaurants) DIDN'T have the right to decide before.

Again Deb, no disagreement from me here.
Yes, you should have the option of going to eat at a non smoking restaurant.
But restaurants should also have the right to decide if they are going to be smoking, non smoking, or have areas that cater for both.

[RadioMaster]

Originally Posted by Deb

Well I didn't like the fact us non smokers (and our chiLdren in restaurants) DIDN'T have the right to decide before.

i have to take neils side here (lol)

We had the right, it was our decision to visit a smoking or a non smoking etablissment (sp?)

Im totally with Neil here, the state doesnt have to make rules for everything.

[Deb]

Never as long as I have a (oh never mind lol) will you get me to see anything for smoking lol. There are other countries that have the no smoking ban, it;s not just ours. I actually found it really offensive last yr when i went to the likes of Basel where they allowed smoking in the actuall venue it;s primative. There is not one good thing to come from smoking. It smells, the person doing it smells, it kills you and it kills those around you breathing it in. It costs way too much. It makes everything yellow. I could go on and on and on lol...