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Old 16 Apr 2012, 18:53   #126
robgomm
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Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse View Post
I dislike, because I am Sith.

And now we must do battle

*PPPSSSSSSHSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH* <----- Impression of a light saber opening.
You are only the master of evil!
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 18:54   #127
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Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror View Post
Darth Mouse?

That's awesome. Very off topic but awesome!
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 19:07   #128
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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
Well, those are acknowledged fairytales. Pretty far reaching for the argument IMO.
I know, I was just being naughty



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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
Once again, this has nothing to do with the banner issue. It's about a secular institution endorsing Christianity and Religion in general. A public school is supposed to be secular. There are private Non-Secular private schools for those who wish to practice their faith within the confines of their educational institution.
I don't know enough about the American schooling system to make much comment, but I think any child should have the right to be schooled within their religion.

But that said, whose choice is it wether to school the child within a religion?
The parents (i'm assuming) and not the childs.
Guess kids don't get to have much of a break when it comes to freedom of choice where religion is concerned



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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
Uh, there are plenty of those. Tons. Both involved and not involved in this paticular case.

I don't think that people like that would be a reason in itself to rip it down. The best reason is why it eventually was: It was unconstitutional to have up in the first place.
There are tons of nutters in various religions, but my point was does the banner increase their number or strengthen their case?

There are nutters that support the Koran, but does that mean that everyone who supports the Koran is a nutter?

As for the consitution, like many laws of many lands, the law IMHO is an ass without enough common sence.



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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
Short answer: Yes.

I would ask if that banner coming down really changes their overall happiness? The answer is no. The emotion involved all comes down to The Christian Right trying to claim the United States as their own. Not only is the imagery and doctrine visible, they use it as leverage in making government policies.

I agree that it's wrong to base all government policies on religion.
But that will be done wether there is a banner on a wall or not.
No ammount or lack of religious argument is going stop a woman who believes abortion to be a sin voting for the guy who stands up and says abolish abortion.




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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
And for someone who didn't want to get involved you put out some long and well thought out responses.... whether I agreed with them or not.
Thanks

For someone who never expected to have any strong opinion (and even though i'm discussing it a lot, and thinking about it, I don't think my opinion is strong ) i'm spending a lot of time on the issue.


I was thinking about this last night walking the dog, and I was thinking that is Christianity an easy target?
Or at least the easiest target.

In the West we seem to be able to support everybodys views and religions, except the one that is native to us.
We seem so afraid to offend, we are afraid to say anything about other religions, and have very little to say in support of our own nations religion and are often quite comfortable bashing it.

For instance, every December here in Liverpool a menorah is erected outside St George's Hall for Hanukkah.

St George's Hall is a civic building (bearing the name of a saint, a Christian device I belive ) yet every year a large Jewish religious sign is placed outside.

Should that offend or displease me?

Would it offend or displease an athiest?

If not, why not? It's religious isn't it?

I think if anybody tried to campaign against the menorah they would be slammed as an anti semite rather than be taken at face value.

If it were a muslim device that was being petitioned against, forget it

So why is it that Christianity, the religion of our our own people (for lack of a better phrase right now) the one that is the easy target?

This must be the longest convo i've had on religion in my life
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 19:09   #129
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Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror View Post
Darth Mouse?

WE need a "Want one" button

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Originally Posted by robgomm View Post
That's awesome. Very off topic but awesome!
A little light relief in a pretty heavy thread
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 20:47   #130
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Flying Mouse, in light of the possibility of you entering politics full-time, may I suggest you stand as an MP for Bradford West at the next election.
I reckon you would give Gorgeous George a run for his money!
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 21:05   #131
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Flying Mouse, in light of the possibility of you entering politics full-time, may I suggest you stand as an MP for Bradford West at the next election.
I reckon you would give Gorgeous George a run for his money!
How on earth did that cat cream licking idiot get elected?
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 21:07   #132
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Flying Mouse, in light of the possibility of you entering politics full-time, may I suggest you stand as an MP for Bradford West at the next election.
I reckon you would give Gorgeous George a run for his money!
Why?
Is he skilled with a lightsaber and would make a worthy opponent?


Or is it more political/religious (i've no idea what he stands for).
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 21:10   #133
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But what I was saying is that with so much wrong in the world and so many needing help I thought it was a selfish act by these 2 women. Again my facts are not wrong. I will stand up to any judge anywhere and argue the case. The reason the pilgrims left England is they were not allowed worship the way they wanted. The law is not about a prayer on a school wall , it's about everyone in that school has a right to believe how they believe, can't say Merry Christmas, can't put the 10 commandments on the outside wall of the capitol building. all people want to do is assume and not really read ,study, and understand. Why does the President attend a prayer breakfest. I see dumb people !! If they put a Muslim prayer next to the prayer that was on the wall for 50 years , I would say they have the right to do so. Separation of church and state is about the freedom to worship and believe what you heart tells you. Not to take away everything that says God From the world. If this case would have gone to the Supreme Court it would have been overturned.
very good point. that's exactly how i'm thinking.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 21:34   #134
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I'm glad you all like Paul, everytime I say anything it's wrong !! Please change to Paul Crook UK fan Club, and no I am not upset with Paul in any way. There are people here who do not like me at all. I am very confussed. " Meat Loaf UK Fan Club" is that a joke I'm not in on.
just don't have the right words to tell you how much i love you, not only your music but even more your personality ...
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 22:18   #135
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I know, I was just being naughty

I don't know enough about the American schooling system to make much comment, but I think any child should have the right to be schooled within their religion.

But that said, whose choice is it wether to school the child within a religion?
The parents (i'm assuming) and not the childs.
Guess kids don't get to have much of a break when it comes to freedom of choice where religion is concerned
They do have a choice. It's called home schooling or private school.

Religion has NO PLACE in the government. Or in schools, where you learn things which have value (which religion has none).

And I agree, children DON'T have a choice of freedom of Religion. Every child is born an Atheist and parents brainwash them into believing.

That's where recoveringfromreligion.org comes in.

Quote:
There are tons of nutters in various religions, but my point was does the banner increase their number or strengthen their case?

There are nutters that support the Koran, but does that mean that everyone who supports the Koran is a nutter?

As for the consitution, like many laws of many lands, the law IMHO is an ass without enough common sence.
There are various nuts in any form of life. Those who are mildly religious shield those who are nuts. It validates them.

And I don't agree about what you say about the constitution.

Quote:
I agree that it's wrong to base all government policies on religion.
But that will be done wether there is a banner on a wall or not.
No ammount or lack of religious argument is going stop a woman who believes abortion to be a sin voting for the guy who stands up and says abolish abortion.
That is highly debatable.

Also, if there is no religion, how can there be sin? Does not compute.


Quote:
I was thinking about this last night walking the dog, and I was thinking that is Christianity an easy target?
Or at least the easiest target.

In the West we seem to be able to support everybodys views and religions, except the one that is native to us.
We seem so afraid to offend, we are afraid to say anything about other religions, and have very little to say in support of our own nations religion and are often quite comfortable bashing it.
I have no problem bashing any religion.

It just so happens that Christianity is the biggest problem in the US.

I find that Muslims don't insist upon themselves as much. Same with most other religions. Therefore it's worth speaking out against.

I think that all religions are equally dumb.

Quote:
For instance, every December here in Liverpool a menorah is erected outside St George's Hall for Hanukkah.

St George's Hall is a civic building (bearing the name of a saint, a Christian device I belive ) yet every year a large Jewish religious sign is placed outside.

Should that offend or displease me?

Would it offend or displease an athiest?

If not, why not? It's religious isn't it?

I think if anybody tried to campaign against the menorah they would be slammed as an anti semite rather than be taken at face value.

If it were a muslim device that was being petitioned against, forget it

So why is it that Christianity, the religion of our our own people (for lack of a better phrase right now) the one that is the easy target?

This must be the longest convo i've had on religion in my life
Well, the UK is a NON secular country (officially), so there is less grounds to speak out against it.

Offense is not the word. More like head-shaking befuddlement.
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Old 16 Apr 2012, 22:47   #136
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OK, i'll go round one more time, then i'm leaving it alone
Been an interesting convo though


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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
They do have a choice. It's called home schooling or private school.
Home schooling isn't always practical and private school is expensive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
Religion has NO PLACE in the government. Or in schools, where you learn things which have value (which religion has none).
But surely this is your opinion and not fact?


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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
There are various nuts in any form of life. Those who are mildly religious shield those who are nuts. It validates them.
.
But the many are tarred with the same brush as the few.
Something the members of mlukfc can identify with at times


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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
And I don't agree about what you say about the constitution.
We'll agree to disagree on that.

My proof that the legal proffession is nuts at base level is Australia.
The English find a paradise. A vast sun soaked land with golden beaches and set in a sea of the deepest blue.
And what did we do?
We sent our convicts there while we stayed on our little rain swept rock.
If any lawyer at that time was even half witted, he'd have said let's go over there and leave the convicts behind.
Nothing since then has given me any more confidence in the legal system.



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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
That is highly debatable.

Also, if there is no religion, how can there be sin? Does not compute.
I don't think it's highly debatable at all.
A woman whose religious beliefs forbid abortion is more likely to agree with (and therefore vote for) a candidate who will ban abortion than someone who doesn't share her views.

No banner needed, just listen to the candidate make a speech to see what their views are.
And if you want to stop the use of the word "God" in speeches, I think you are very close to impeding freedom of speech.
Ergo, there is no reasonable or practical way to keep religion 100% out of politics.



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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
I have no problem bashing any religion.

It just so happens that Christianity is the biggest problem in the US.

I find that Muslims don't insist upon themselves as much. Same with most other religions. Therefore it's worth speaking out against.

I think that all religions are equally dumb.

OK, fair enough
But I still think you'd have a lot more opposition and stigma as a racist or religious hater if you took on a petition concerning a different religion.



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Originally Posted by Evil Ernie View Post
Well, the UK is a NON secular country (officially), so there is less grounds to speak out against it.

Offense is not the word. More like head-shaking befuddlement.
We have the Church Of England, so I guess that's pretty official, so in retrospect I think there would be more grounds to speak out about it (no, I don't think anybody needs to speak out about it )

Again, it just seems that the closer something is to our national identity, the more we fear that it will upset others.

I don't think people in this country would have a problem with athiests speaking out against Chrisianity, but I think their motives would be misunderstood if it were another religion being targeted at any particular time.

Anyway, i've had my say, you've had yours, and we are never going to agree.
Been an interesting chat though
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 08:31   #137
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Ok so I posted this with a quote, but it didn't seem to work...

Rob and I are like qui gon & obi wan...... I am obi wan
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 11:50   #138
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But I still think you'd have a lot more opposition and stigma as a racist or religious hater if you took on a petition concerning a different religion.

We have the Church Of England, so I guess that's pretty official, so in retrospect I think there would be more grounds to speak out about it
..................
I don't think people in this country would have a problem with athiests speaking out against Chrisianity, but I think their motives would be misunderstood if it were another religion being targeted at any particular time.
I think that's probably true in general. Perhaps because the Church of England is seen as so closely tied to the State, given the monarch is the head of the Church (hello Henry ) and freedom to speak out against the State is accepted. Targeting other religions (and here I suspect you may be referring to those other than Christianity) sits on more dangerous ground because many are so closely identified with race/ethnicity, and the motives of those speaking out against them arguably more suspect. When I hear some people speaking out angrily about Mosques for eg, I am forced to wonder if it is Muslim belief they are angry with or that they are targeting Muslims for their race and culture as much as their religion.

Like you I see no reason to avoid celebrating Christmas, but I respect the right of others to celebrate Divaldi, or whatever their religious beliefs dictate. Accepting, respecting and welcoming diversity is imo the way forward. That's why I believe it's right that in state schools here children learn about a wide range of different creeds. Whether I hold any religious beliefs or not, there are many in our society who do, many religions are tied strongly to culture, and understanding different cultures is important in a multi-cultural society in my view. How far that happens in private schools (which as you say are expensive) is I suspect questionable, and it probably would not happen in home schooling (which always concerns me, as in my view children who are home schooled will generally be limited to the knowledge of their parents, and their education limited by their parents' beliefs, values and constructs .. and in some cases their prejudices).

Caryl
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 15:09   #139
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Ok so I posted this with a quote, but it didn't seem to work...

Rob and I are like qui gon & obi wan...... I am obi wan
Actually i'm more like Anakin before he turned into Darth Vader. Can't live by the strict rules of the jedi about not loving and so on.
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 17:31   #140
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Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse View Post
Home schooling isn't always practical and private school is expensive.
In America, where this case is based, you receive a tax break if you home school and you can choose to credit your tax dollars to a private school, if it meets certain criteria - therefore, lowering your tuition rates.
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Old 17 Apr 2012, 18:15   #141
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In America, where this case is based, you receive a tax break if you home school and you can choose to credit your tax dollars to a private school, if it meets certain criteria - therefore, lowering your tuition rates.

Yes, I would have expected that. You seem to be able to claim many more things against tax than we do in the UK .. although I was supporting Mouse's point that private education is generally costly, and is costly here. It doesn't alter my grave reservations about home schooling though, which are not based on cost but on limitation. I would think that someone who chose to home school in order to educate their child in their beliefs would be less likely to educate them in the beliefs of others, and still have concerns that their education would be limited to and by the parents' knowledge, experience, values and constructs.

It's of particular concern in the UK where home educated children do not have to follow the national curriculum or take tests, and do not even have to register or have the level of education inspected and assessed. Because of that they don't even know how many children are being home schooled, the estimates ranging between 7.5 and 34.5 thousand, and the most common reason given is bullying at school .. another sad indictment on the state of play these days.

Caryl

Last edited by CarylB; 17 Apr 2012 at 18:21.
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 03:21   #142
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Actually i'm more like Anakin before he turned into Darth Vader. Can't live by the strict rules of the jedi about not loving and so on.
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 03:38   #143
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In America, where this case is based, you receive a tax break if you home school and you can choose to credit your tax dollars to a private school, if it meets certain criteria - therefore, lowering your tuition rates.
Exactly. But besides that due to religious organizations being tax free, the freedom to practice any religion is abundant and extremely available (temples, churches, personel).

A big reason (besides all the other reasons) why it should not be allowed in schools.

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Originally Posted by CarylB View Post
Yes, I would have expected that. You seem to be able to claim many more things against tax than we do in the UK .. although I was supporting Mouse's point that private education is generally costly, and is costly here. It doesn't alter my grave reservations about home schooling though, which are not based on cost but on limitation. I would think that someone who chose to home school in order to educate their child in their beliefs would be less likely to educate them in the beliefs of others, and still have concerns that their education would be limited to and by the parents' knowledge, experience, values and constructs.
Very good post.

I think that the MOST important thing about School is the Socializing aspect. You learn how to deal with people and it's where you start becoming the person you are today. You learn about different cultures and people in the melting pot that is The United States and many other countries.

That is a big reason why I don't believe that it's right for any public school to endorse a religion. It makes sense that the majority would want it that banner up because the US about 80% Christian and even the rational are polarized by the nut jobs.

As I said earlier, in the grand scheme of things this is nothing significant. It's a small victory for the rational thinkers of the United States.
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 07:45   #144
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Ah, so you're more like a non-practicing Jedi then Rob!
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 09:25   #145
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Ah, so you're more like a non-practicing Jedi then Rob!
Yeah, think they call it a grey jedi in some circles.
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 13:48   #146
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Yeah, think they call it a grey jedi in some circles.
Aha, I see
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 14:00   #147
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I think that the MOST important thing about School is the Socializing aspect. You learn how to deal with people and it's where you start becoming the person you are today. You learn about different cultures and people in the melting pot that is The United States and many other countries.
Imo, if it's not THE most important thing about school, it comes in a close second to all else. My daughter is homeschooling my youngest grandson. He's 10 years old and clings to my daughter for friendship. He's shy around others. I keep telling her it's time for her to get him into school. She and her mate are unhappy with the public schools where they live and can't afford private... The lad really needs to get into a school with kids his age ... I find it a bit unhealthy, actually ...

S ... xo
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 15:54   #148
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Imo, if it's not THE most important thing about school, it comes in a close second to all else. My daughter is homeschooling my youngest grandson. He's 10 years old and clings to my daughter for friendship. He's shy around others. I keep telling her it's time for her to get him into school. She and her mate are unhappy with the public schools where they live and can't afford private... The lad really needs to get into a school with kids his age ... I find it a bit unhealthy, actually ...

S ... xo
Yes that's really quite unhealthy as the child won't learn how to interact with other people his age, might not have any friends etc.
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 16:01   #149
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for what its worth I went to a private school in belfast, every morning in assembly we had morning prayers by the school chaplain, by no means was it a religious school but it practiced christian morals. We even had 2 classes for R.E, a moral one and a biblical one.
But yes, what im getting at is there were some student who would be considered an ethnic minority, particularly in an all boys school in belfast. But during the R.E lessons that didnt stop the teacher from inquiring about his muslim beliefs on the various different aspects being studied. It also allowed the students to have a broader understanding, but not once did he feel intimidated in a school where every morning the lords prayer was said and each week he'd have to attend a biblical class. Sometimes i think people just like to make a fuss.

Like the whole atheist vs christian thing, why cant either side just agree to disagree. Instead it becomes nasty and spiteful.

just my 2 pence. (because we dont use cents). Dunno if its applicable, but hey, it came out.
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Old 18 Apr 2012, 16:56   #150
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might not have any friends etc.

You mean like rebel scum?

*PPPPPPSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH* <------- you've had it now

Seriouly though Sue, it's not for me to second guess your daughters parental choices, but I too think children should have the social opportunity to mix with their peers.
I hope your grandson at least gets some social time with others when his lessons are done for the day.




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Like the whole atheist vs christian thing, why cant either side just agree to disagree. Instead it becomes nasty and spiteful.
It doesn't always have to become nasty and spiteful.
On this thread you can see a rather long conversation between Evil Ernie and myself.
Two different points of view, but we both spoke our minds in a frank and non agressive manner, and, as you said, I believe we've agreed to disagree.

Perhaps it was because on my part there are no strong feelings on the matter, I certainly don't feel personaly invested (even though I believe my point of view makes sense), that stopped our exchange from becoming heated.

It's when people go from speaking their minds and sharing their opinions to trying to change other peoples opinions, or telling them that they are wrong, that's when they are more likely to dig in and push back just as hard.
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