24 Minute interview on PBS

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by robgomm

It just seems to me that there are fans of Meats music here, and fans of Meat the person as well as the music. This is the problem.

Why should it be a problem ? I'm ambivalent (if I'm honest) about the subject of this thread, but I can't see why someone who is a fan of the music is a problem. Meat loaf is a musician, and if you're a fan of the music, as I believe we all are, why is anything else important ?

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

It's not about the banner itself, it's about the larger issue at hand.

Getting that banner taken down is a small victory against the Christian right in the United States. It's not just Jessica that disagreed with it, it was many people. She was just the face of it.

There are many other larger battles at play in the US:

- In God We Trust On The Money
- Mention Of God In The Pledge Of Allegiance
- Use of religious imagery in Government Buildings
- Hate Groups like 'American Family Association'
- Teaching of Creationism in Science Classrooms
- Accepting Religious exclsuion when it comes to elections

It relates to the banner issue itself because Christians call stuff like speaking out against religion, The Reason Rally and other things as 'persecution' and 'bullying'.

It is not. It's just not getting their way for once.

I don't believe that tigers can bounce on their tales, or that witches once turned mice into horses to pull a carrage made from a pumpkin, but i'm not going to go down to the childrens hospital (because it's a public building)and demand they paint over the mural on ethical grounds because I believe the world needs more reason and less heart.

I am not religious, but I do not believe that the sign of the cross is offensive, I do not find churches places of mystery where I have no place, priests don't make me feel nervous, and I eat chockie eggs at Easter.

If a religious zealot was preaching fire and brimstone, advocating violence towards other religions, races, nationalalities, sexual preferences, and discriminating against gender, I might say, "you have a point, rip down the ~~~~ing banner".

But unless there is a religious loonie trying to oppress you or change your beliefs, why not live and let live a little?


I am not arguing "THAT BANNER SHOULD STAY UP" .

I'm asking "why does it really need to come down if some folks like it?"

And I never intended to get that involved

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by Sarge

P.S.: Let me also point to the fact that this is an international community. There are people whose mother tongue is not English which might lead to misunderstanding or posts appearing a tad too "blunt".

As you're using colloquialisms such as 'mother', 'tad', and 'blunt', I think your command of the English language is remarkable as a non native speaker

[Sue K]

It's sex, politics and religion that shouldn't be discussed as parties ... So... two outta three and all that... Oh, hell... when DOES the sex chat start ??? ... ...

S ... a bit dizzy at this point from riding/ reading the unmerry go round ... xo

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by Sue K

when DOES the sex chat start ??? ... ...

Originally Posted by Sue K

S ... a bit dizzy at this point from riding...

After you...

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by stretch37

When there are an unknown number of people who "dislike him", it immediately puts him on the defensive when there is a negative comment, because he knows he is "disliked" by some. And before I get jumped on, I don't mean disliked in the sense that you disagree with Meat's opinion, I mean people who literally do not like Meat and you can tell by the way they word their posts (IE "I'm not really a fan of the artist").

Seriously, no one here dislikes Meat Loaf, , why spend time on a Meat Loaf site if you can't stand the guy ?

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by Evil One

After you...

... lol ...

[Evil Ernie]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

I don't believe that tigers can bounce on their tales, or that witches once turned mice into horses to pull a carrage made from a pumpkin, but i'm not going to go down to the childrens hospital (because it's a public building)and demand they paint over the mural on ethical grounds because I believe the world needs more reason and less heart.

Well, those are acknowledged fairytales. Pretty far reaching for the argument IMO.

I am not religious, but I do not believe that the sign of the cross is offensive, I do not find churches places of mystery where I have no place, priests don't make me feel nervous, and I eat chockie eggs at Easter.

Me neither. I may think it's pointless, but offense is not the word.

Once again, this has nothing to do with the banner issue. It's about a secular institution endorsing Christianity and Religion in general. A public school is supposed to be secular. There are private Non-Secular private schools for those who wish to practice their faith within the confines of their educational institution.

If a religious zealot was preaching fire and brimstone, advocating violence towards other religions, races, nationalalities, sexual preferences, and discriminating against gender, I might say, "you have a point, rip down the ~~~~ing banner".

But unless there is a religious loonie trying to oppress you or change your beliefs, why not live and let live a little?

Uh, there are plenty of those. Tons. Both involved and not involved in this paticular case.

I don't think that people like that would be a reason in itself to rip it down. The best reason is why it eventually was: It was unconstitutional to have up in the first place.

I am not arguing "THAT BANNER SHOULD STAY UP" .

I'm asking "why does it really need to come down if some folks like it?"

And I never intended to get that involved

Short answer: Yes.

I would ask if that banner coming down really changes their overall happiness? The answer is no. The emotion involved all comes down to The Christian Right trying to claim the United States as their own. Not only is the imagery and doctrine visible, they use it as leverage in making government policies.

-Abortion
-Homosexual Issues
-Marriage Issues
-Sexual Issues
-Vices

Not to mention that they are all tax exempt, but that's a whole other issue.

And for someone who didn't want to get involved you put out some long and well thought out responses.... whether I agreed with them or not.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

The prayer was on the wall for 50 years.
Had it hurt anyone in 50 years?
Was it due to hurt anyone in the next 50 years?

So what was the big problem?

It might have brought comfort to some people, so it did a little good in the world, but who the hell was it going to harm?
If there were a lot more things that could do some good but no harm, we'd be living in a better world.

If there was something in the prayer that insighted racial or religeous hatred toward others, I can see the point in wanting it taking down. But a message of reasurrance?

Why couldn't the prayer be ignored by the people who didn't believe in it?

Why is another persons views (in this case, religious beliefs) be such an affront to people with different views? (perhaps they are all forum users )

I personally agree with your views, Mouse. Frankly, I think as a society, we have gotten too "politically correct". However, I think we get on a slippery slope when we try to pick and choose what is "offensive" versus what is not. Some things are obviously clear, as in the vast majority of people would agree; others, not so much.

In a previous job I had in a managerial position, I was required by the company (as were all employees in a similar position) to attend "sensitivity" training. One of the key take-home messages was that when it comes to a "hostile work environment", what is important is not how a comment/action by one employee is intended, it's how it is perceived by the second employee. In other words, the company has to take all complaints of offense seriously.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

I myself am offended when things like Christmas are deemed politicaly incorrect. There have been plenty of reports in newspapers over the years over different places in England that have decided to ban a public Christmas tree in case it offends other religions or non believers.

My current job is in a service position, and I am always careful not to wish people a Merry Christmas, for example (unless they say it first), not because I'm forbidden by my employer to do so (I'm not), but because I try to keep in mind that not everyone celebrates Christmas. While I wouldn't personally be offended by someone basically wishing me well (for example if someone said "Happy Hanukkah" to me), some people might be. I usually stick with a generic "Have a nice day".

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Ultimatly, if somebody well known takes a public stance on an issue it is more than likely that there will be people who agree and people who disagree, and as we all have a differnent compass governing our political/religious/social views, it's not to be too surprising when it's discovered that some of the people who disagree are within his own fan base.

True; I know there are many people in the Springsteen fan community who don't agree with his politics, and they're not afraid to say so. Yet, they're still big fans of the music.

Religion and politics are two issues that people feel very strongly about, and to discuss them is bound to cause disagreement.

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

Not to mention that they are all tax exempt, but that's a whole other issue.

I was going to mention that myself, what this being Tax Day in the States and all ... Faiths' tax exempt status pishes me off ... but then again... there are several abandoned buildings in the area in which I live... Perhaps I should start my own church !!! ... ...

[Evil Ernie]

Originally Posted by Sue K

I was going to mention that myself, what this being Tax Day in the States and all ... Faiths' tax exempt status pishes me off ... but then again... there are several abandoned buildings in the area in which I live... Perhaps I should start my own church !!! ... ...

If only it was that easy.

You're not a religion unless the government says you're a religion. Scientology fought for years for that right.

But I figure that since theists always like to say (erroneously) that Science and Atheism are a religion...

[DJLeen]

Hey Meat, you never say something wrong to me. It's the truth you thelling ! and i respect you for that, so many people are afraid to do that. I understand you, every time I open my mouth i have the feeling too that whatever i say isn't good either, so sometimes i think... It's better to say nothing at all...

Negativity is all spreading over the world... I might sound crazy, but i believe in the mayan prediction. The world is not gonna end, the world is going to change. And before it changes we are heading for disaster first ! For then starting over again...We have to get through this... Most important thing is that we don't get influenced by negativity that is now all around...

Meat, i love your performances, your interviews. it's making me smile every time. :) and when you come back to the U.K to perform i'll be there, that's my vow, i keep my promises. Love to travel to see you, it's my greatest reward to get to you even for a brief moment... I'll travel to the U.S if i must for you. You are worth it, i only do that for you ! I wouldn't travel to London for someone else, only for you.

You're a honest guy, with a big heart. You are very talented and i'm proud to be your fan !! I love ya !! XXX **HUGS**

[Evil Ernie]

Originally Posted by DJLeen

I might sound crazy, but i believe in the mayan prediction.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by stretch37

Just the very fact that were having this debate shows that this is not a fan club of an artist - we are debating whether its ok to NOT like this person or NOT agree with this person's opinions. Then it begs the question, WHY is this called a fan club of said person?

Not liking a person's opinions and not liking the person are not the same thing.

When it comes to an artist's work, it's also possible to not care for them as a person but still like or appreciate the work. For example, Phil Spector, by many accounts, was a nutter who showed up to recording sessions with a bullhorn and a handgun, yet many consider him to be a genius as a producer. I've read that Jackie Gleason was not a very nice man in real life, yet many people loved his work on television.

Disclaimer: I am in no way implying that this is how I feel about Meat Loaf

[allrevvedup]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

When Meat says that the members of mlukfc hate him, that we are a hate club rather than a fan club, that insults and upsets me.
Both as a member and a mod.

I don't like that either and there are a lot of things that Sir Loaf posts that I don't like either, however I wouldn't consider my response to mean that I 'hate' him.

Hate is a very strong word and to actually be repulsed by something or someone takes a lot of effort.

There's been so many posts in a short space of time that I can't refer to specific parts of them all but suffice to say what I take from all of this is that the sensitivity amp has been turned up all the way to 11 with plenty of feedback.

We, people in general, seem to get fixated on incredibly small issues thus building them up to the point where arguments with shaky foundations seem to be built.

I personally think the daughter and her father had a right to file their complaint, to take it to court and abide by whatever the verdict was going to be. But just because you don't agree with their view does not mean that they do not have the right to take this to court. Nor is there the right to disagree with their view that it results in possible verbal/physical abuse.

Again, for me, it comes down to having an opinion and why some consider that to be a terrible thing?

As for things on this site, I can see that sometimes lights the blue touch is when we appear to be told what Sir Loaf is thinking or feeling by those who have no idea what his thought process is.

Paul Crook's posts have given us some insight into the inner workings of recording and performing live with Sir Loaf and that's great because he has lived it for nearly 10 years now, but those (not in the know) who claim to know exactly how he'd react to something seems crazy to me. I can see how some feel like that is being rammed down their throat.

But hey it all comes down to respect; that to me is what is sorely lacking in the world and is contributing to the majority of its problems. You may not like what someone has to say, and believe me there are a lot of posts I read that have me doing this , but whoever is posting it has a right to state their view.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

If only it was that easy.

You're not a religion unless the government says you're a religion. Scientology fought for years for that right.

But I figure that since theists always like to say (erroneously) that Science and Atheism are a religion...

I belong to the Jedi religion

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Not liking a person's opinions and not liking the person are not the same thing.

When it comes to an artist's work, it's also possible to not care for them as a person but still like or appreciate the work. For example, Phil Spector, by many accounts, was a nutter who showed up to recording sessions with a bullhorn and a handgun, yet many consider him to be a genius as a producer. I've read that Jackie Gleason was not a very nice man in real life, yet many people loved his work on television.

Disclaimer: I am in no way implying that this is how I feel about Meat Loaf

Yeah exactly, thats what i've been trying to say. Liking the artists work is different than liking the artist as a person.

And it really does not matter to me which is which. I don't necessarily like Axl Rose as a person, but I love his work. Would I go on his fan club though? No, because I don't really like him much as a person. If he came to Victoria near where I live I would buy tickets without fail.

Meat's upset because he thinks this should be a place where people like both his work and him as a person. Maybe he's barking up the wrong tree.

This place is a community built on the hard work of the moderators and R who do this as a volunteer activity. They're naturally upset that anyone asking for change is suggesting they are not doing their job. The general consensus seems to be that most people like this place the way it is, feel that the administrators are doing a good job, a few people want some changes, but still appreciate the mods and the work they put into keeping this place alive. Its a great place to hang out and a home away from home :)

Change is always hard because both parties blame each other, and if the relationship is at the point where trust has already been lost on both sides, things get rather ugly don't get :P It seems we have reached that point here. Meat wants change, the people who run this community and many fans want Meat to change. At this point, it looks like Meat is not willing to change....he is too upset at others for hurting him. And the fan club is not willing to change, they are too upset at Meat (and others) for suggesting that change could be an option.

The whole situation feels like a divorce....with "irreconcilable differences"

I'm still on the fence with no answers.

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

When Meat says that the members of mlukfc hate him, that we are a hate club rather than a fan club, that insults and upsets me.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Meat, I love you a lot, but look at the support you have on the forum, and for God's sake stop thinking that just because someone disagrees with a public stance you take means they hate you.

That sums it up in a nutshell for me

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by stretch37

the people who run this community and many fans want Meat to change.

Just to clarify, there has been no official statement from R or from the Mod team saying this.

Originally Posted by stretch37

And the fan club is not willing to change, they are too upset at Meat (and others) for suggesting that change could be an option.

With regard to changes could you please not quote "the fan club" as a whole, this insinuates that R and the Mod team have dismissed out of hand any changes that can help the site move forward. This site has continuously evolved over time to try to cater for the increasing numbers and diversity of it's users but it has never brought changes in as a knee jerk reaction to a situation, R will only bring changes in after careful deliberation.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I'm still on the fence with no answers.

Sorry Matt, but for someone with no answers I think you're making a lot of broad statements about Meat, the "fanclub" and the members. Rainer has introduced some changes, has said more are to come. I don't see that as resisting or being unwilling to change. I don't see how you can speak for Meat either. Nor for all the members.

Caryl

[melon]

Originally Posted by robgomm

I belong to the Jedi religion

Lol, me too, well,at least thats what my facebook says

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by stretch37

Yeah exactly, thats what i've been trying to say. Liking the artists work is different than liking the artist as a person.

And it really does not matter to me which is which.

Really? Because from your posts, it sounds like it does matter.

Originally Posted by stretch37

I don't necessarily like Axl Rose as a person, but I love his work. Would I go on his fan club though? No, because I don't really like him much as a person. If he came to Victoria near where I live I would buy tickets without fail.

If you would buy tickets, and I presume you own his albums/CD's as well, how are you not a fan on some level? Why do you feel it's necessary to like the person (whom, keep in mind, you don't really know, you only know what you've read or heard about him, unless you do know him personally, in which case I stand corrected) to join the fan club?

I don't think a Frank Lloyd Wright Fan Club exists, but if one did, I would join. From what I have heard about Mr. Wright, he was rather arrogant and had other traits I might not look for in an acquaintance, but I would call myself a huge fan of his work.

If I may quote St. Bruce of Freehold, "Trust the art, not the artist."

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by robgomm

I belong to the Jedi religion

I dislike, because I am Sith.

And now we must do battle

*PPPSSSSSSHSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH* <----- Impression of a light saber opening.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by melon

Lol, me too, well,at least thats what my facebook says

You goin down too

PPPPSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH <---- impression of spare light saber opening

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

I dislike, because I am Sith.

And now we must do battle

*PPPSSSSSSHSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH* <----- Impression of a light saber opening.

Darth Mouse?