[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

There are lots of things that are traditions. I never understood the mentality that just because something is old means that it's better. There were lots of things that were traditions and than we outgrew them as human beings.

True, if we'd stick to things just because they have been there for quite a while there would be no progress at all. We still might have things like slavery or deny women the right to vote.

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

Love you for your music, not always for your opinion. Just because of that doesn't mean the love isn't there.

Exactly. I often disagree with my best friends and they disagree with me, yet none of them has ever accused me of "not liking" them. We all have different backgrounds, experience of life, careers, opinions... I can enjoy some old movie with Brigitte Bardot, even though her political beliefs are not my cup of tea.

Originally Posted by cowboy

Church and state came all the way from the 14th century.

In America, too? Before Columbus?

I agree that Christianity has significantly influenced our culture over the centuries, regarding everything else I rather agree with evil nickname.

Originally Posted by cowboy

Your right, the US constitution
gives you the right to believe how you believe. the ruling was a violation of the US constitution . bottom line .

We had a similar arguments over here, regarding whether there must be crucifixes in classrooms or whether female Muslim teachers should be allowed to wear headscarfs while teaching. Or if pork must be served in school cafeterias... Freedom of religion and separation of church and state are sensitive issues and trigger differing points of view and interpretations. The problem is that things that some people consider to be an essential part of their religion / their beliefs / their culture might make others who believe in something else feel restricted or even offended.

Originally Posted by cowboy

There are prayers all over the walls of government buildings in Washington.

You can still find relics of doctrines represented by past eras on the walls of buildings in my country. They haven't been removed but we no longer have to live by them.

Removing a prayer from a school wall does not keep people from excercising their religion. They can still believe in whatever they want, they can pray, go to church, etc. If I want to be religious and believe in something, I can do so without a prayer hanging on a wall in a building that wasn't built to represent my religion. Unless it's a religious school, there shouldn't be prayers on display. As far as I understood, Ms. Ahlquist did not attack Christians or Christianity, the case just raises the question in which places religion should be present and if/where people who have another or no religion should be confronted with it that way. Are you "compassionate" enough not only to understand the feelings of those who wanted to keep the prayer but also the motivation of those who had an issue with it?

Originally Posted by evil nickname

As it is on a subject that I care about — i.e., freedom of religion for all, not just for those who happen to have one [...]

I don't see how she is what's wrong with the world.

Go yell at the people sending her death threats, or something.

Meat, you repeatedly complained about the rude, inconsiderate and dastard way people behave on the internet, didn't you? Does that also go for the issue evil nickname referred to in the sentence quoted above?

It's odd that some people who claim to be in favor of that prayer actually act against to what that prayer says. I wonder if they actually read and understood it. You say "we have lost our humanity and compassion". Is sending people hatemail "humane" or "compassionate"? What's worse? Requesting the removal of a prayer and maybe hurt people's (religious) feelings or threaten to actually hurt or kill someone?

If people have an issue with what the girl did, fine, but there are more decent and appropriate ways to express discontent. The way some people reacted just led to another silly Christians vs. atheists fight. That's one of the things I'd pick as an example for "the world going to hell in a handbasket": The inability of people to solve conflicts in a civilized manner, the tendency to hate each other for secondary, minor reasons.

Originally Posted by cowboy

But what I was saying is that with so much wrong in the world and so many needing help I thought it was a selfish act by these 2 women.

Everybody can decide for themselves what cause they fight for, regardless of what others think of it. Do you know for sure that she hasn't put time and energy in other issues, too? By the way, most of the things people do are somehow "selfish", even things we believe to be altruistic.

So, aside from the girl from Rhode Island that bothers you that much, what else is it that's "wrong in the world", in your opinion? You focus on some argument over a prayer when explaining the album title. What about the very complex economic and social issues the world suffers from? The latter will affect our lives in the long run, the prayer argument probably won't. It's easy but unfortunately not very constructive to complain about what other people have allegedly done wrong. I'm more interested in what you think is the "right" thing to do. What's your idea of solving the world's problems, how would you make the world a better place?

Just like to add one thing: I wonder why presumably reasonable people freak out when it comes to religion or politics and fight with people they could actually be good friends with if those two things wouldn't interfere.