24 Minute interview on PBS
 

very interesting.. ta for posting

It's a honest interview filled with the truth and i really enjoyed watching it.

Re: that prayer on the wall thing. It appears Meat got his facts wrong. So unless objecting to a violation of the US constitution and standing up for what you believe is right is a sign of the world going to hell in a handbasket, I think it's a pretty bad example.

Given that this is one of my hobby horses, it irks me.

Also, there's a video which goes into Chuck D's contribution on the album a bit more: http://video.pbs.org/video/2210992925

I agree. I thought it a great interview, with an interviewer who didn't constantly work to a pre-planned agenda, and an intelligent and thoughtful man, who cares about the world, and the way he sees it going. I enjoyed it tremendously too.

And using Wiki to confidently point out Meat "got his facts wrong" irks me.

Caryl

That's too bad, because that article is a succinct and accurate summary of the gazillion different articles I've read about the whole issue. But feel free to peruse the cited references at your leisure.

Well irk me.

if you were just told that someone objected to the prayer banner you would think that it was someone just trying to be a little too PC (which is what is what I would've taken from that example by Mr Loaf)

However if you're going to bring it up as an example of how the world is going to hell then the example is taken out of context.

Good interview though, still doesn't change my view of not liking the album.

What is wrong with the information included in the Wiki? You basically will use ANY excuse to defend ANYTHING that ML does or says.

Fact is that he was extremely out of line here. THIS was the best example he could find of the world going to hell in a handbasket? Not starving children or needless wars or Kony. No. Some kid in middle America who wants the constitution upheld is the best example that he could find.

Interviews like this just tell me how out of touch ML really is with the rest of the world. I actually try to avoid interviews with him from the past and the present because IMO he doesn't comes across well in almost EVERY interview I've seen with him. I know it will never happen and everyone has the right to their opinion, but I wish that he would just shut up and sing.

I have not requoted your more offensive comments.

I do not consider Wiki to be some tablet of stone-set truth.

I support Meat, I am ENTITLED to do this and to express my views. I can manage to do this with courtesy. Some might not find it surprising that fans on a fansite support or defend the man whose name heads every page.

Please don't even try to harass me into changing or diminishing my support of Meat, who is someone I respect.

You basically just proved my point.

Thank You.

As have you proved yourself, for which I cannot thank you with any sincerity

Well, neither do I, but in this case, it's a pretty darn good summary of the situation as I understand it from the numerous articles I've read about it.

So I still stand by my original assertion that Meat got his facts wrong on this one.

No it's not the best example but it's what he thought of in the moment, the thing that sprang to mind there and then.

You wish that he would shut up and sing? Believe it or not he's actually a very interesting person and I suspect that if he wasn't asked various questions in interviews he wouldn't answer. Fact is the people that interview him find him very interesting and want to know his views on a whole range of things.

Caryl is right in that Wikipedia is well known for gathering it's info from here there and everywhere and so ends up not quite factually correct in a lot of what it says.

You wish he would just shut up and sing? I would say what the hell are you even doing on this site when you insult the artist you are meant to be supporting? How can you even be allowed to come here and blatantly insult the artist?

:up:

very interesting

Well He said it was the best example. His words, not mine:

Wikipedia articles must have sources cited. It's true that anyone can edit a Wiki, but any entries without citations are erased. It's sort of ignorant to reject something just because it's on Wikipedia.

And supporting an artist means that I buy his records and see him in concert. If he does or says something that I object to I am going to make it known. Even though I'm aware that democracies don't exist on internet forums, we all live in Free countries where we're allowed to express our opinions. I know that may seem foreign for a message board where it seems like 50% of the posts are just people agreeing with each other.

I love ML as a singer and sometimes as an actor, but that doesn't mean that he's omnipotent. Lately especially it seems that every time that he opens his mouth and does a keystroke I do a facepalm.

I really don't want to give a damn about Meat Loaf's political and worldviews. I don't care, I'm in it for the music. But when he's making a big deal out of how his latest album in grounded in reality and how he thinks about stuff, no characters in the songs, etc., it gets kinda hard to stay out, right?

So when he comes up with probably the worst best example of the world going to hell in a handbasket, I want to headdesk and facepalm at once. If Meat sings that he can barely fit his big dog in there, I know it's stupid, but that's not Meat, it's his character. On the other hand, saying stuff like

That is Meat saying that. As it is on a subject that I care about — i.e., freedom of religion for all, not just for those who happen to have one — I cannot ignore that. Especially not when he lead it in with:

Jessica Ahlquist stood up for the constitution, and was responsible for herself and other people. Unlike like the people who only cared about their own beliefs and put up that prayer. The school board could just have removed the prayer when someone first complained about it — nobody saw it anymore, right? But no, they had to go to court, spend time and money that could have been better used elsewhere.

I don't see how she is what's wrong with the world.

Go yell at the people sending her death threats, or something.

Are you all really naive enough to think that Meat really thinks that is the best example? It was an example he came up with at a moments notice in response to a question. It's like the other week when he said everyones got their hand out, were you all naive enough to think he really meant everyone in the world? Of course he didn't, and you'd be stupid to think so.

FFS HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD HE GETS NERVOUS ON TV AND DOESN'T ALWAYS SAY THINGS EXACTLY RIGHT? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE, STOP PICKING.

I've seen the same "best example" (Meat's words) pop up three times now:

http://www.lfpress.com/entertainment.../19527466.html
http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/...atloaf2012.htm
http://video.pbs.org/video/2213078176

Which would suggest that he didn't come up with it at a moment's notice.

He talks about the world but obviously it's only his world he refers to. I expect a little bit more from an artist who obviously is not stupid and has travelled the world.

I hate to say it but I agree. There was a time when I enjoyed listening to his interviews because he came across as a witty, funny and educated guy. These days many of his statements make me shake my head in disbelief, some even make me angry and are beginning to spoil my listening experience of his current album. Good album, very disappointing interviews.

Seems to be the plat du jour for some at the moment.

I like the passion with which this intelligent, caring, and articulate man speaks about his concerns and beliefs. It simply reinforces the meaning of the album and enhances the pleasure in listening to it for me

Great interview, thanks for posting!

Thankyou for posting this interview.

Did he get his facts wrong or is his interpretation of the US Constitution differing from the legal precedent that has gone before? A very unique part of the US Legal System is for Judges to have the ability to interpret law, as well as steer law in one direction or another. Yes, the girl has freedom of religion and felt offended; however, depending on whether the school is "public" or "private" would depend on the level of freedom of speech the educational institution has for posting whatever they wish. As an entertainer, I have freedom of speech and can say whatever I want during my act; however, I must also put the intended audience's reaction into account when I write my material. There is nothing in the US law that says I cannot make racial slurs during my comedy act; however, for example, I must weigh loosing my audience if I make reference to the president's race and make off color references as such.

In the case of this school prayer, my personal opinion would go toward Meat's in this situation. If this is a private school, then leaving the prayer up on the wall should be totally upheld. The student/parent of the student has made a conscious decision to attend the school, and should have paid attention to what was posted on the walls prior to voluntarily enrolling. If this school is a public institution, the student/parent does not really have a choice - unless there is reciprocity of school district boundaries, which allow for students to "travel" outside the physical realm of the district where they physically live. Then the case should be up for further evaluation.

We could open up a whole new can of worms about the separation of Church and State with reminders that when Massachusetts converted from a Colony to a State, there was a state established church for quite sometime and no one said anything...but that is another can of worms for another thread altogether.

My understanding of US law in the matter of separation of church and state is that public schools—as the one in question is, check the Wikipedia article mentioned earlied—cannot 'promote' any religion. I don't see how the audience's reaction factors into that.

Also: have a look the nice reactions people are sending Jessica Ahlquist.

The how come it was left on the wall for 50 years? That doesn't make sense?

The brilliant Thomas Jefferson penned:

Does the legal precedent requiring the prayer to be removed not also impinge upon the freedom of other student's to exercise their religion? It is a two edged sword.

I don't know. Perhaps there have only been good Christians at that school who took it for granted and didn't care it was illegal. Perhaps there were people who objected to it, but didn't file a complaint. Perhaps there were people filed a complaint, and the school board chose to ignore that. I really don't know. Does it matter? Having something somewhere for some time doesn't automagically make it right or how it should be.

Probably not. From what I gather, US citizens are currently free and able to exercise their religion as they see fit, and the US government may not establish religion. But IANAL, and more details on the legal precedent can be found in the court's decision.

How is taking down a prayer banner infringing on their right to practice their religion? Please explain.

If the religious want religion in school than I want Science taught in church. Theists feel that they are being persecuted, but they're really just not getting their way for once. It's amazing how the spoiled act like children when you take away their rattle.

Having that banner up is an endorsement of religion in a public building. Plain and simple. I bet you that they wouldn't find it cool if they put up an Islamic prayer right beside it as a consolation.

Apparently you have never been to my church. I have learned about rain, the food chain, evolution and creationism and why they must go hand-in-hand, as well as how rain happens, learning that things live and die, and other scientific ventures - all of these have been presented to me directly from the pulpit during sermons, at various churches I have attended over the years.

Listen, I won't deny I consider myself a Christian Buddhist nor will I deny I consider myself to be politically Conservative; however, I will also not allow you to pigeon hole me into the stereotypes of people who hold my same beliefs. My best friends are Jews, Muslims, Cross Dressers, Ministers, Homeless....shall I go on?

I understand where Meat Loaf is coming from and you don't - no biggie. He has a problem with breaking of tradition, I believe that is where he is coming from. I have also done media blitzes like Meat Loaf did - not on the same scale, but have known I had like a dozen interviews where I knew the exact same questions were coming down the line. You rehearse your answer and pick your point of reference so you can come off pithy and succinct, yet sounding half way spontaneous, relevant, and hopefully on the positive side of intelligent.

Looks like we are going to have to agree do disagree on this one. There are matters of opinion and matters of salvation - this is opinion and the salvation is Mr. Loaf whose banner brought us all together across the cybersphere and for that I am thankful today.

Good, well thought out post.

Interesting. So they teach Science in your Church? Do you mean actual Science or an interpretation from scripture? If its actual science, good on them

I don't see how that was significant to my post. I wasn't talking about you. My point is that it wasnt about religious freedom to the jerks in RI, its about the promotion of Christianity in a secular country.

The only thing that I asked of you is how removing that thing was infringing on their right to practice their religion? For the record I think they're all equally ridiculous.

I think that he could have just said nothing. Him bringing this up was completely spontaneous. It wasn't really the 'best' example of HIAH. He wanted to comment on it due to his own indoctrination into religion but he ended up sounding backwards and close minded. The banner was illegal.

There are lots of things that are traditions. I never understood the mentality that just because something is old means that it's better. There were lots of things that were traditions and than we outgrew them as human beings.

In the case of this it's a tradition which never should have existed.

Don't believe I got my facts wrong at all, you need to understand the law a little better. Church and state came all the way from the 14th century. What it means is the state can not tell you how you can worship. The dollar still says in god we can trust. The 2 people that took down that prayer interfered with the civil rights of many. The judge was wrong with his decision and the school system does have the money to fight it. Your right, the US constitution
gives you the right to believe how you believe. the ruling was a violation of the US constitution . bottom line .

But what I was saying is that with so much wrong in the world and so many needing help I thought it was a selfish act by these 2 women. Again my facts are not wrong. I will stand up to any judge anywhere and argue the case. The reason the pilgrims left England is they were not allowed worship the way they wanted. The law is not about a prayer on a school wall , it's about everyone in that school has a right to believe how they believe, can't say Merry Christmas, can't put the 10 commandments on the outside wall of the capitol building. all people want to do is assume and not really read ,study, and understand. Why does the President attend a prayer breakfest. I see dumb people !! If they put a Muslim prayer next to the prayer that was on the wall for 50 years , I would say they have the right to do so. Separation of church and state is about the freedom to worship and believe what you heart tells you. Not to take away everything that says God From the world. If this case would have gone to the Supreme Court it would have been overturned.

You are basing your opinion on Wikipedia . Wikipedia ?? Please go take a course in Constitutional law. I did in college, I was a History major . People are destroying the US
Constitution . There are prayers all over the walls of government buildings in Washington.
They won't go after those. They would be overturned.

Yes the world is going to hell in a handbasket !!! That judge is living proof.

I'm glad you all like Paul, everytime I say anything it's wrong !! Please change to Paul Crook UK fan Club, and no I am not upset with Paul in any way. There are people here who do not like me at all. I am very confussed. " Meat Loaf UK Fan Club" is that a joke I'm not in on.

Exactly. Schools here give children a grounding in all faiths, and before anyone who is agnostic or atheist says anything against that, to me it's about tolerance and understanding in a multi-cultural society, where understanding others' beliefs is important to embracing diversity, rather than trying to suppress or remove it.

I still say Happy Christmas because that is what I am celebrating on 25th December, and I respect the right of others to celebrate Divali, Hannukah etc. There seemed to me to be nothing wrong with the prayer that as on that school wall, and I would have had more respect for someone who simply asked to add a secular piece which exhorted children to something worthy, or asked that another religious prayer be added

Agreed .. and I hope that would have been the case. There's enough negative and worrying stuff around to worry about in my view, before lobbying to remove a simple prayer because it doesn't fit your personal beliefs

Caryl

Paul's great .. and you KNOW that there are far more people on here who enjoy your company here, and respect and love you and your work, than those who may not or who find fault with what you say and do :-) You see the comments which are critical, and like most people don't like to read criticism and fault-finding. Just try to remember there are many more posts of support, agreement and care .. and enjoy those ;)

Caryl

*** hug *** ...

S ... xo

(( Hugs ))

Love you for your music, not always for your opinion. Just because of that doesn't mean the love isn't there.

Politics evoke a wide variety of emotions.

Your opinions are great to me. I think a fan club should consist of people who are a fan of the artist....but thats just me. And im probably going to get shot down for that, but it seems to make sense to anyone i've asked.

Cowboy,

Can you find it in your heart to stay around for the people here that DO like you and your opinion? Please, what can we do to help the situation so you stick around and post?

RE: Paul. I think he's trying to help this community get back on track, so you'll enjoy your time here.

Suzieq

I absolutely agree Suzieq ... on both points.

I agree as well.

This is a community full of good people. Yet many are not fans of Meat Loaf's personal opinions or attitude.....So Its hard. I don't want things to change around here because it risks us losing everything. At the same time, I don't want Meat upset. I'd much rather this place was a place he could call part of his team of loyal followers.

Nobody seems to have the answer to this issue, least of all me, I feel more helpless than anything.

And Sarge, I apologize for swearing at you the other day. I lost my patience and kind of went Busey because I've held my tongue many times with you before, and you always read into me the wrong way and it sucks. You didn't deserve what I said, and I although I'm still mad that you told me I'm forcing my opinion down others throats, I have felt bad since then. I can have a strong personality, but just because I have an opinion does not mean I won't like you if you don't agree with it. When I start to not like you is when you tell me im forcing it down others throats. I am not that type of person. If you don't agree with me, that ~~~~ing rocks. That's what makes the world great, difference in opinion. That's what encourages debate. Discussion is healthy, and thats what causes us to avoid world wars, by having that discussion. I was trying to do just that. State an opinion and hope to add something to it, not force anyone to do anything. Who am I to think I hold that kind of power? If I did, I would be the most self-absorbed prick on here.

Again, I apologize, and I feel bad, and I am sorry you felt I was too forceful. I'm currently in a really hard practicum at school, working, and was dirt poor for the last 3 weeks waiting for student loans. The stress got the best of me, and humbled me just as much.

lates.
matt

I watched that Tavis interview when it aired, and again on this thread. When Meat brought up the topic of the prayer banner being taken down I remembered seeing that on the news, and the empty wall of a banner that hung for so many years.

That being said, I thought Meat was using that recent story (because it was recent to the time of the interview) as an example of how these people are focusing their time and energy to have it removed...rather than utilizing precious time in some other manner to promote peace. We have all this hatred going on...our country has been, and continues to be...attacked. Soldiers are dying...still. People are starving, homeless, jobless...I could go on and on. I see suffering on a daily basis as I work in a field of "compassion" as a Registered Nurse.

It seemed to me the example Meat referred to was not religious or politically intended. Perhaps a thought of a news story that came to mind as an example of THIS is what people are spending TIME on...losing focus on the HUGE problems the world and our country are facing every day.

Hence, the world has gone to "Hell in a Handbasket".

Coming into an artist's FAN site, twisting his statements, insulting his latest and brilliant album makes you a contributing person to the TITLE of the album ITSELF. Who does that? WHY? What purpose does it serve?

The screen name you chose is INDEED appropriate.

For what it's worth Meat...HIAHB has changed MY LIFE, my views, "the truth has set ME free"...and I felt as though Another Day was written FOR me. I do remember when my life was "simple".

I am trying harder to be the person God wants me to be, to enjoy each day as I open my eyes, to cherish every moment I spend with my children, to stop and smell the roses, enjoy LIFE...because you "cannot turn back the hands of time"...unfortunately...sad but TRUE. :(

"Give up or give it everything inside"...I'm giving it EVERYTHING inside.

I intend to THANK Meat, when I see him in July... for some extremely powerful lyrics, incredible music and an amazing album that truly has turned MY life around 180 degrees for the BETTER. I tried to do it in a PM, unfortunately it was never read.



Does being "Evil" feel good??? :twisted:

Being kind and compassionate feels EVEN BETTER! You should try it sometime.



Please stick around Meat!

Kar

One more thing I'd like to add...and I RARELY if ever...post personal problems on forums, FB, myspace etc. Perhaps I'm in the wrong "area" and this will be moved accordingly.

Thinking about this whole school, banner, religion etc....

Here's MY dilemma:

My 9yr old daughter the youngest of my five, my baby, my angel, precious and sweet. She has made honor roll every marking period, received the Citizenship Award, Student of the month, and I could wallpaper her bedroom with "Random Act of Kindness Awards"...she has so many. Loves school, loves her teacher.

Right up until 2 months ago when she was hit by a chair flung by a student having a "tantrum". I am told by the school this child has no mental or physical disabilities. Every day my child comes home from school...with the exception of when this student is in OSS (out of school suspension) she tells me another story of this young boy's "outburst"..the entire class has to leave the room, while teachers try to calm this boy down.

Multiple phone calls to the school, principal, and superintendent have resulted in "there's nothing we can do" the boy has "problems at home", "anger issues".

Now my daughter is literally AFRAID to go to school, has attendance issues..headaches, stomach aches etc. My hands are tied. I could of course choose to home school her...but I prefer she attends public schools for the purpose of learning and social interaction.

If my daughter was subject to witnessing the violence at home that she is seeing in SCHOOL on a regular basis...she would be taken away from ME by child protective services... period.

A banner can be over-looked, how does this mother and daughter spend money with the words "In God WE Trust"????? Rip it up? Doubt it.

This is a perfect "REAL" example of how the world truly is going to or has GONE to Hell in a Hanbasket.

UNREAL

I am really not sucking up by saying I believe Meat is right in everything he says here. It's a great example of people being plain selfish, I mean c'mon deciding to be offended by something that's been there for 50 years is just plain pathetic I don't care what anyone says.

I think that's a bit harsh to be honest. I think if you look back the vast majority of the time everyone has been grateful for your posts and information and have said so, we all love you and want you here.

I agree that there are some people here that shouldn't be, and we would love to get rid of them believe you me. But please, please stick around for the vast majority of us who love and support you.

I like ya Meat ;)

**hugs** Please stick around here... There are many people here who love you and write positive comments. Pay attention to them and ignore the few dumb ones here who are too stupid to say ever something good.

Love ya. XXX

Hi Meat,

Disclaimer up front: I am neither an US citizen nor a lawyer. My understanding of the US Constitution and the separation of church and state comes from reading loads of articles about it. As I said, the subject of freedom of religion for all and not just those who have one is something I am very interested in.

"In God We Trust" has only been the US national motto since 1956, and it is not entirely undisputed, as many people see it as an official endorsement of religion by the government.

The people who put up the prayer and allowed it to stay there also interfered with the civil rights of many.

If that's your opinion, I don't think we're going to agree on this.

I agree that there are many things wrong in the world. And indeed, this is just a minor issue in the great scheme of things.

But you said "We got here because people stopped caring about other people and only care about their beliefs and what they want." In light of that statement, I believe that this prayer banner thing is a bad example: Jessica Ahlquist stood up for what she believed in, the constitution, and was responsible for herself and other people. The schoolboard didn't care that she and others felt "excluded, ostracized and devalued." They just wanted to keep a statement of their beliefs up there. They even went to court over it. I don't get how she's what's wrong with the world.

Also, I tried my best to keep this out of the whole thing, since it seems kind of pedantic, but well, it was a girl and her father. While, indeed, that's nitpicking, it's still wrong. ;)

Yes, and that's also why the establishment clause is there: they didn't want state-endorsed religion, and religious freedom for all.

As far as I can see, in the US individuals are free to worship as they please and free to say merry christmas. But indeed, the government and, by extension, public schools cannot display messages promoting religion.

That's a bit of a generalization. If I didn't try to understand this situation, I would not be arguing over this, would I?

I wonder about that too, Obama being the anti-christ and all. I kid, I kid.

I would love to see that. But mostly because I would also love to see the Religious Right fuming over that.

Again, I don't see how anyone in this case is trying to take away anybody's freedom of religion. Putting up a prayer is as far as I know not a prerequisite for religious worship.

Somehow, I doubt it would:
I cannot see how allowing a prayer up on a wall and going to court over it is anything but sponsorship of the message.

No, I am not. As I have said in several posts in this discussion that I believe the Wikipedia article to be a accurate, succinct summary of the many articles I've read on the case. In fact, I've also replied to exactly the same criticism that everybody should feel free to peruse the cited references at their leisure. And then, I also linked directly to in the court's decision. So, please, gimme a break.

There have been various lawsuits over, for example, displays of the ten commandments in state capitols and courthouses, with mixed outcome.



On a final note: I guess this all boils down to how you look at things. As an atheist, I think that freedom of church and state is a right that's worth defending. I'm perfectly fine with anybody believing and worshipping whatever they want, as long as they respect my right not to. For me, freedom of religion should also include freedom from religion. I don't see a war on religion, I see misplaced outrage over religious privileges being challenged. I see people sending sixteen year-old girls sending death threats because she stood up for what she believed in, and it just happened to go against what they believed in.

Meat, I don't think we're going to agree on this matter, but just as you're free to assert that Jessica Ahlquist, her father and the judge got it wrong and should be doing something more constructive, so am I free to believe you're barking up the wrong tree here.

(And that's probably not going to earn me a lot of likes, but so be it.)

I like you and I've loved seeing you around the boards and reading what you have to say. I know the majority of the community feels the same.

I understand that negativity hurts and it's hard to ignore sometimes but there's a lot of messages that are very positive and supportive.

I hope that's not directed at me, 'cause it's just my nickname that's evil.

Also, could the people liking this post please explain what part they liked? If it's Meat's assumption that I just used Wikipedia to base my opinion on: you're all dead wrong and didn't read the thread. -1, unlike, and unfollow.

Getting back ...

People's beliefs, when they are core beliefs, are very strongly held, whether they are to believe in some power beyond this life or not to. Challenging them will always be an emotive issue. Of course it's wrong to send death threats to ANYone .. just as it's wrong to issue religious fatois that declare holy war. That's why I believe that to include rather than ban or prohibit a wide variety of religious beliefs as well as secular is better than fighting to remove something from a school wall that has been there for years.

Freedom to practise what one believes, just as the much quoted freedom to express an opinion are both worthy ideals in a democracy, but not easy to uphold. To insist on the removal of something which does not incite hatred to anyone, but is simply intended to inspire some to positive effort was not in my view the way to uphold freedom, simply because a wholly positive message was prefaced with 3 words "Our Heavenly Father".

To me to insist on its removal does impinge on the freedom of those who believe in God. But I would have no quarrel with similar prayers being also posted on the wall which were addressed to Allah, or appealed to any other belief, including one which was an exhortation to try ones best because one was human, had no belief in an afterlife or presence that watches over us, so it was important to make the best of each day one had on earth, because we each have a lifespan and it's important to make the best of it because it won't come again. To me that would uphold everyone's freedom to practise whatever belief they hold. Seeking to prevent this would be a breach of rights imo

Caryl

Because Wikepedia is about as reliable as... well, a Land Rover Discovery.... well at least the one that we used to have at my work anyway, that thing was crap.

I read the thread very carefully. I "liked" ie agreed with "There are prayers all over the walls of government buildings in Washington. They won't go after those. They would be overturned."

I believe Meat is correct. The colonisation of America was based on a desire to practise religion without hindrance, it is embedded in the roots of its constitutional history. Every dollar bill has In God We Trust. Some things will endure in my view.

Caryl

Absolutely! Meat, if you compare the number of people on here who are in your corner, it FAR OUTWEIGHS the number of people who are not! I guess most of us have a tendancy to focus more on the negative things that people say about us, rather than the positive. But Meat, the nit-pickers are the minority here. The majority of the people here think you are great and we really appreciate it when you come here and interact with us.

To me, it doesn't. Being free to believe in something and being free to make a public display of what you believe are two different things altogether. Especially if you're not a private individual but a public school.

Yet, you liked the whole post. Which goes to show that the "like" button does not really help clear communication.

We disagree. Life is never dull. But I understood it was permissable to publicly state or display one's opinions and beliefs, to practise one's beliefs publicly without let or hindrance as long as they don't incite hatred of another, and to do this both as an individual or a group. However, I think we see things differently, so need to each accept that having stated our view we might as well move on.

I didn't dislike any of it. I understood all of it, basically I agreed, and very strongly with what I quoted. It mattered to you to know more detail, you asked, I gave it to you.

My reaction you may recall re Wiki was the same. You have since pointed out you have done much research. However, I still think Meat probably understands more about the US constitution than you do. That's what I think .. so I agree with the post I liked.

Caryl

Well said! :-)

I have tried not to get sucked into anything 'argumentative' which has happened in this forum (being only a baby poster), but have never seen anything like it before on any fan pages. But goodness, one man's words have been taken way, way, way out of context and scrutinised far too much. Can we just get the thread back on track and just enjoy our favourite music together and be chuffed that he wants to actually communicate with his fans? There are so many more artists that do not bother!

Please don't feel bad. This forum shouldn't be a place to make one feel bad. Let's just bury the hatchet and focus on our common interest. Written communication is especially prone to misunderstandings. I understand the stress thing and I know you can be very passionate ;) at times. Good luck with the practicum! :-)

Can we finally stop this, please? Who defines who should and who shouldn't be here and why and how to get rid of them? Good Lord*, some posts on this forum remind me of Communist Germany. :roll: Robgomm, you're obviously a smart person, I think you're not in need of that. You can show what a loyal and supportive fan you are without referring to other people's alleged shortcomings and without provoking conflicts within the community, can't you?

It's probably a very stupid, naive question to ask but can't we all just try to get along, in spite of having different opinions and different ways of expressing them? After all we're adult, reasonable people. (At least I hope so.)

* religious reference :yikes:

True, if we'd stick to things just because they have been there for quite a while there would be no progress at all. We still might have things like slavery or deny women the right to vote.

Exactly. I often disagree with my best friends and they disagree with me, yet none of them has ever accused me of "not liking" them. We all have different backgrounds, experience of life, careers, opinions... I can enjoy some old movie with Brigitte Bardot, even though her political beliefs are not my cup of tea.

In America, too? Before Columbus?

I agree that Christianity has significantly influenced our culture over the centuries, regarding everything else I rather agree with evil nickname.

We had a similar arguments over here, regarding whether there must be crucifixes in classrooms or whether female Muslim teachers should be allowed to wear headscarfs while teaching. Or if pork must be served in school cafeterias... Freedom of religion and separation of church and state are sensitive issues and trigger differing points of view and interpretations. The problem is that things that some people consider to be an essential part of their religion / their beliefs / their culture might make others who believe in something else feel restricted or even offended.

You can still find relics of doctrines represented by past eras on the walls of buildings in my country. They haven't been removed but we no longer have to live by them.

Removing a prayer from a school wall does not keep people from excercising their religion. They can still believe in whatever they want, they can pray, go to church, etc. If I want to be religious and believe in something, I can do so without a prayer hanging on a wall in a building that wasn't built to represent my religion. Unless it's a religious school, there shouldn't be prayers on display. As far as I understood, Ms. Ahlquist did not attack Christians or Christianity, the case just raises the question in which places religion should be present and if/where people who have another or no religion should be confronted with it that way. Are you "compassionate" enough not only to understand the feelings of those who wanted to keep the prayer but also the motivation of those who had an issue with it?

Meat, you repeatedly complained about the rude, inconsiderate and dastard way people behave on the internet, didn't you? Does that also go for the issue evil nickname referred to in the sentence quoted above?

It's odd that some people who claim to be in favor of that prayer actually act against to what that prayer says. I wonder if they actually read and understood it. You say "we have lost our humanity and compassion". Is sending people hatemail "humane" or "compassionate"? What's worse? Requesting the removal of a prayer and maybe hurt people's (religious) feelings or threaten to actually hurt or kill someone?

If people have an issue with what the girl did, fine, but there are more decent and appropriate ways to express discontent. The way some people reacted just led to another silly Christians vs. atheists fight. That's one of the things I'd pick as an example for "the world going to hell in a handbasket": The inability of people to solve conflicts in a civilized manner, the tendency to hate each other for secondary, minor reasons.

Everybody can decide for themselves what cause they fight for, regardless of what others think of it. Do you know for sure that she hasn't put time and energy in other issues, too? By the way, most of the things people do are somehow "selfish", even things we believe to be altruistic.

So, aside from the girl from Rhode Island that bothers you that much, what else is it that's "wrong in the world", in your opinion? You focus on some argument over a prayer when explaining the album title. What about the very complex economic and social issues the world suffers from? The latter will affect our lives in the long run, the prayer argument probably won't. It's easy but unfortunately not very constructive to complain about what other people have allegedly done wrong. I'm more interested in what you think is the "right" thing to do. What's your idea of solving the world's problems, how would you make the world a better place?

Just like to add one thing: I wonder why presumably reasonable people freak out when it comes to religion or politics and fight with people they could actually be good friends with if those two things wouldn't interfere.

Very well said and a question I have been asking myself countless times during my life. I remember saying something to a girl I worked with once and that was that everyone has an opinion but differing opinions does not have to stop people being friends or at least getting along.

There is so much love to be found here but for some reason you ONLY seem to pick out everything you dislike.

What Paul brought to this board was an insight on the production of a Meat Loaf album. Of course we love that!

I saw questions in Paul's 'production' topic about if you were willing to do something similar. Like the Facebook/YouTube Q&A. As far as I can remember that only got positive vibes on this forum!

People agree with and love you on most matters. On some matters they have different views or opinions. So what? Why fixate on what we don't agree on? Instead of fighting those opinions try to take a compliment from the board every now and then. I hardly see you reply to positive posts. Maybe you should do that a bit more and perhaps it gives you a better feeling coming here. ;)

I don't post often. Mainly I only read. But there are à lot off people who like you and like your music Mr. Loaf. You need to start to believe that. There are more people on here than you think who feel that way. Maybe they are not very outspoken but they are there.....

Try to stay positive!!!!!!

I'm sorry if I offended you Sarge but there is an important point to make here. It just seems to me that there are fans of Meats music here, and fans of Meat the person as well as the music. This is the problem. There are a small group of people who do not seem to like Meat Loaf the person, and because of this they end up posting negative things an awful lot of the time that then cause arguments and bad feeling on the board.

I really appreciate you saying we should all try to get along. I'm with you 100% on that. I just can't see it happening while some people are here.

I will point out that 'In God We Trust' was put on the notes in the 50s as a reaction to the cold war.

I will also point out that the UK puts great men like Charles Darwin on their money. I'm surprised to have so many people on a UK forum NOT defending secular values.

It's not a problem. It's the Internet.

Do you think that everyone is just gonna agree on everything? It's not gonna happen. Never.

And why WOULD somebody want that? Sounds boring to me.

Disagreements are not hate or negativity. People need to realize that and stop making leaps in judgement. Including Meat himself.

I'm sure most people who are fans of his music, but disagree on some of his views are still fans of ML the person. He's not a bad person, just wrong (IMO) sometimes.

The fact that someone disagrees with something Meat Loaf says or does, does not necessarily mean that they dislike him. Sometimes people are pretty quick with the "hate" accusation, maybe that's easier than trying to understand why someone posted a "negative" comment.

Fans like their favorite artists for various reasons. We're all different from each other and have our own preferences, expectations and values. It's not unusual that there are different levels of admiration and different ways to show that admiration.

P.S.: Let me also point to the fact that this is an international community. There are people whose mother tongue is not English which might lead to misunderstanding or posts appearing a tad too "blunt".

It's not that he's wrong... so to speak ... just that his opinion may differ from yours ... Imo ... lol ... opinions can't really be called wrong ... It's just the way one feels... ie... one person thinking one flavor of ice cream is better than another... That doesn't make it so ... It's just an opinion ...

S ... xo

:twisted: A lot of strong feeling about this :shock:

I feel (although I might be wrong) the problem Meat has with so much effort going into the removal of the prayer is not a religious issue, but one that there is a portion of society that really goes out of their way to upset other people.

The prayer was on the wall for 50 years.
Had it hurt anyone in 50 years?
Was it due to hurt anyone in the next 50 years?

So what was the big problem?

It might have brought comfort to some people, so it did a little good in the world, but who the hell was it going to harm?
If there were a lot more things that could do some good but no harm, we'd be living in a better world.

If there was something in the prayer that insighted racial or religeous hatred toward others, I can see the point in wanting it taking down. But a message of reasurrance? :wtf:

Why couldn't the prayer be ignored by the people who didn't believe in it?

Why is another persons views (in this case, religious beliefs) be such an affront to people with different views? (perhaps they are all forum users :mrgreen: )

That's the message I got from Meat frustration, but again, maybe i'm wrong :shrug:


I myself am offended when things like Christmas are deemed politicaly incorrect. There have been plenty of reports in newspapers over the years over different places in England that have decided to ban a public Christmas tree in case it offends other religions or non believers.
I do not feel intimidated by Chritianity, I don't feel my human rights violated, and have no problem with the national anthem being GOD Save The Queen.
In fact I rather envy people who have stronger religious beliefs at times as I can imagine them to be of comfort at times.

I'm not a particularly religious person, but Chritianity is the religion of my land, and I believe that those who wish to worship should be given that right.
If other religions wish to practice in my country, all fair and good, but don't go saying that Christianity offends you.

And you don't have to be a dyed in the wool God wholloper to think a tree with pretty lights on sort of brightens the place up a bit.
(The fact that the "Christmas" tree was hijacked off the pagans and actually has ~~~~~~ all to do with the son of God is something I supports that viewpoint :mrgreen: )



But is this the place to discuss this?
Yes, and no.

Yes, because it was said by Meat, and we are all fans of Meat and might have an opinion on what he has to say. Wether that be positive or negative.

No, because it has nothing to do with his career.

Ultimatly, if somebody well known takes a public stance on an issue it is more than likely that there will be people who agree and people who disagree, and as we all have a differnent compass governing our political/religious/social views, it's not to be too surprising when it's discovered that some of the people who disagree are within his own fan base.
In fact, you can pretty much count on it. If a dude from Westlife says something about politics or religion it's not likely to interest me. From Meat I might take more interest.

If you admire JFK, you probably admire him for his political views, but you might not like his art collection.

If you admire The Pope it's probably because you think he's a righteous dude, but looking through his CD rack you might wonder "WTF is he thinking?" :wtf:

I think the people of this forum are here because they appreciate the artistic output of the artist Meat Loaf.
Not because they hold the same religious/political beliefs, so when Meat says something publicly they don't agree with, it's bound to cause debate.

So Meat doesn't respect the peoples efforts to have the prayer taken down, some people don't respect Meat's comments on the issue, other people don't respect their disagreement with Meat, and so the world keeps going around and around. :roll:


I believe Meat is over the top with this...............

He's said things like this a lot, and I for one thing it's very unfair.
Most of the posts on this forum are positive (as you'd expect on a fan forum).
There have been pleas not to leave the forum, posts of love and devotion, some have posted supporting your stance (with giving reasons why) and I think they are the most supportive posts of all.

But to reply to a whole forum that you are not liked because somebody holds an opinion different to your own concerning a freaking prayer on a wall is (and I say this with all the love in the world, even though the "dislikes" are going to go through the roof) as silly and one minded as the people who made such a fuss about taking down a prayer they didn't happen to agree with.

Meat, I love you a lot, but look at the support you have on the forum, and for God's sake stop thinking that just because someone disagrees with a public stance you take means they hate you.

This is what i've been trying to say as well....Everyone deserves the right to this community, and nobody should be forced to leave...But there are a group of people on here who seem to disagree with Meat most of the time, or dislike him or his opinions, and that is NOT what a fan club should consist of. Having said that, there are many people who are a great fan of Meat the person and the artist.

Just the very fact that were having this debate shows that this is not a fan club of an artist - we are debating whether its ok to NOT like this person or NOT agree with this person's opinions. Then it begs the question, WHY is this called a fan club of said person?

I don't want anyone to leave. This community is for everyone. But I think i've come to the same conclusion as Meat: Perhaps this community has the wrong artist's name in its title?

Despite what some critics might say, I also fully agree with this statement. And have all along. If we could all find a way to get along, if somebody had the answer to that question, I would be a happier person knowing we did it.

:up: ...

Well this has already proven to be true on this particular thread...

Its true that Meat usually responds to something negative on here, but its common for a person to respond to things that upset them. I'd say its human nature. Meat only has Meat to stand up for himself on here. When there are an unknown number of people who "dislike him", it immediately puts him on the defensive when there is a negative comment, because he knows he is "disliked" by some. And before I get jumped on, I don't mean disliked in the sense that you disagree with Meat's opinion, I mean people who literally do not like Meat and you can tell by the way they word their posts (IE "I'm not really a fan of the artist"). I've seen that posted on here somewhere. And its ok elsewhere, but its NOT ok for a fan club of said artist.

And I am not one for renaming this place either, I would be very upset if the branding changed because it would ~~~~ the identity of this place over. I don't have all the answers, i don't think any one of us does....But We have not made any progress as of today because we see people telling Meat he's wrong for saying what he did, and we have people being told they "hate" meat when they feel they have a right to their opinion.

And it remains on them

I have consistently advocated the inclusion of secular values in my comments here.

That's how I saw it too. My approach would be to add to rather than remove. Just 3 words introducing it were Christian, yet the message was to me wholly laudable

Caryl

:twisted: You mean like the people who disagree with what Meat said on the matter?
They read Meat's remarks, they were upset, and have responded.

And for the record, i'm more inclined to Meat's feelings on this issue, but i'm willing to listen to what they have to say.
Isn't how all this started? The lack of mutual respect shown by these people in taking down a banner that had nothing to with them?


I beg your pardon, but that's BS :shit:
If anyone has a large body of support on this forum, it's Meat.
The repeatedly posted fantasy that Meat is all alone on this forum facing down a vast army of nay sayers and bullies who are the majority of the forum users is both ludicrous and deluded.

To continue to insist on the paranoid fantasy that most of the people on this forum are here to bully, berate, and belittle Meat is as untrue insulting and offensive, to both this forum and the fans who use it, as Meats remarks themselves.



If he's looking for a 100% approval rate on all his views and opinions, even within his own fan base, he's got a long long wait, because you can't please all of the people all of the time.
But on the whole there is a lot of love for Meat here, and it's been said more than once that sometimes it's only Meat who doesn't recognize that.
If I had Meat's approval rate i'd run for Prime Minister and play Wembley 5 nights a week.


Have you got a link to that, cause I would really like to see that for my own eyes.
Anybody who visits a forum of an artist they are not a fan of, and keeps visiting and posting, must be a bit of an odd ball :nuts:


Don't worry, there are no plans to rename this place.


Agreed.
They should say "I disagree" rather than "you're wrong".
With opinion there is no such thing as a fact.

There are laws, but as with so much with the legal system, just because something is correct doesn't also mean it's right.

People have said they hate Meat on this forum? :wtf:
Links please.

:twisted: And yet the bomb never fell.

Coincidence? :bleh:

Sorry, was just a chain I couldn't resist pulling :mrgreen: :p :lol:

And it starts all over again... :roll:

How can the number be "unknown"? If you claim that there are people who allegedly dislike Meat Loaf, that statement must be based on things that have been said on this forum somehow, so it should be pretty easy to come up with a number. All I see are shallow references to a group of people that is allegedly hostile towards Meat Loaf. That rather appears like scapegoating to me than addressing an actual problem. In fact these allegations devalue the large number of positive posts and are unfair to the people who submitted those posts. I agree with Adje. He pays way too much attention to negativity and wrongfully considers disagreement or criticism as an attack on him as a person.

Meat Loaf is 60+ years old. He has worked in one of the toughest businesses in the world for several decades. He expresses his opinion in public. He openly disagrees with certain things himself. He really should have a thicker skin and shouldn't have an issue with people discussing his statements and disagreeing with him sometimes. Just because I buy someone's records I don't have to share their beliefs. If that was the case, I'd be pretty confused by now as the artists I like have very different ideas and points of view.

If you want to be liked do you think it's a good idea to accuse your fans (customers) of not liking you again and again? Even the most faithful fan will eventually get tired of that.

Agreed. Meat's the best source to explain what he means, what his thinking is, his reasons and his argument. But to suggest he has no-one to stand up for him but himself on here is simply incorrect. He has huge support here. It's just he tends to feel compelled to respond to criticism, or being told he's wrong, which is I agree how most of us react. I thought he argued his case well, then let previous experiences grab his feelings. And I do understand that too ;)

Caryl

I worded that badly.

By his own actions he seems to feel that he needs to be on the defensive when he comes here. That leads me to believe that he feels he is the only one who can truly defend his position.

Well its a good thing I don't think that. And I don't think i've ever heard someone on here say it quite like that. There are a few bullies on here that ruin a lot of good conversation where the majority of the people are not bullies.

:twisted: It's a human trait, but he seems unable to seperate disagreement on an issue with disrespect and dislike, and then "taring everyone with the same brush".

So from our point of view we have a forum full of supportive and enthusiatic fans, of whome a couple may disagree with him at one time or other.

From Meat's it's a bunch of whinning ~~~~~~~s who don't like him.

And posts like Stretch's, agreeing with and supporting the notion that Meat is bullied and disliked, are not helping Meat see things from our side of the reality wall.
How that's supposed to make Meat feel better and more welcome, I have no idea :shock:

He really doesn't need to feel that way.

I'm sure Meat doesn't view everyone as the same here nor should he. He just gets emotional and lashes out which is understandable given all he's been through and put up with. Certainly Paul has come out and said there are a lot of good people here and I'm sure Meat knows this also. He just wears his heart on his sleeve.

I don't think Meat thinks he deserves to be told what he should and should not do on these forums. I think that after 40+ years in the music industry, he'd like to have a very different conversation with his fans.

The world should implies you did something wrong. And Meat is very sensitive to that accusation since he is his hardest critic.

And unnecessarily in my view. Meat let past experience trigger his feelings. I can accept that, assure him he is not disliked but valued tremendously by many of us, and in his heart he knows that I think.

I do understand HOW he sees criticism as an attack, even though that is I think generally not the intent. It's always better imo to dodge bullets than try and catch them in your teeth and spit them back, but the latter is a common human frailty ;)

So assure him he IS valued by many, because that's plain to see on this forum, rather than start up the argument again that there are those who dislike him, implying somehow they're out to get him etc. In my view, on reflection, he'll acknowledge that he has huge support here, huge affection, and a lot of respect for his work and for him as a man.

He doesn't have "a thick skin". He wears his heart on his sleeve. He feels things. That's part of what makes him who and what he is. To me it's part of what makes him and his performances so special. I just accept that. He's very human ;) I think he knows though that he is very loved as well.

And I agree, that to hold a different view doesn't need to stop you liking someone. Nor I guess do you have to like a performer as a person to enjoy his performance, although to me it enhances the experience hugely :-)

Caryl

:twisted: When he comes to the forum and says "nobody likes me", and you say "no they don't, see just how much you are disliked", it's not going to make him feel the love :facepalm: .



It's not often the minority bully the majority, so............


bullying must be rife on the forum.

:twisted: When Meat says that the members of mlukfc hate him, that we are a hate club rather than a fan club, that insults and upsets me.
Both as a member and a mod.

It's of my opinion that because of his vast life experience he should have more tact than getting mad on the internet. It's just not worth it.

That can actually relate to the banner issue itself.

:twisted: We all need more tact at times when we disagree.

I just think he needs to not take disagreememnt of opinion so damn personally.

Ok. This I agree with. And it sucks when you feel you've had that happen to you when you were being a supportive fan.

I don't think that is everyone's point of view, but it seems to be the mods.

Rainer puts his sweat and blood into this site, and he's a great man. The mods are quite fair and also do a great job.

This forum is full of supportive and enthusiastic fans who may disagree or agree with Meat at times.

This forum also has a handful of fans who fruitlessly and without thought say things that upset Meat Loaf or other fans seemingly to just get a rise out of them. These people upset the numerous good fans and commonly dominate discussions and spread negative energy

Has meat ever said that about all of us? I'd like to hear him say that, I don't think that is his opinion. I think that he sees a few comments that are upsetting and is surprised that they even exist on his fan club.

I never once agreed and supported the notion that Meat is bullied and disliked by all his fans on here. EVER. What I said is that there are a few bullies that ruin it for everyone, and having a free open forum seems to encourage people to say things to Meat that they would not say to him over at a pub over a pint! Please Don't make my posts out to be the downfall of this discussion.

I think Meat is capable of seeing your side of things as well as his own.

Even (surprise!) I am capable of seeing that side. In the "how to fix things" thread it really became apparent that the mods feel that Meat is just being a complainer seeing things in tunnel vision, when really this is a great place full of great people and he IGNORES that fact blatantly to focus on a few negatives (such as taking personal offense to someone who disagrees with him)

There is also the point I am conveying, which is NOT to say it is ok for Meat to tell us we are all bullies. That, Flying Mouse, is not ~~~~ing ok. That would be Meat bullying his fanbase, saying we are all horrible, disrespectful fans spreading negative energy when we all know that we are NOT THAT!

This is where the confusion arises. I do not support the notion that you can label everyone here with an all encompassing label of people who dislike Meat Loaf. That is rude, crude, and indeed focuses way to ~~~~ing much on negativity.

So, with that out of the way, my point, and the point of many others on here still stands: Most of us are supportive, enthusiastic fans, yet there are some comments said here that would not be said to him over a pint, or at a meet and greet, and that most people wouldn't have the balls to say to their favorite artist in person, but feel they have the right to say it while hiding behind a computer.

This is a complex situation that is probably not gonna be fixed any time soon. But Don't tell me that I can't see the different sides to the argument. Just because I'm arguing on Meat's points does NOT mean I do not understand the full extent of the situation.

Matt

:twisted: If the banner was used to bash people over the head (physically or metophorically) i'd say you had a point.

As it was, it was on a wall, and doing no harm to anyone.
Not physically, not spiritually.
It wasn't mounted on a flag pole and burried in somebodys belly, it wasn't quoted in hate speeches against "the non believer" or other races or religions (for some reason I have the image of Malachi from Children Of The Corn in my head shouting "OUTLANDER" :shock: ).


It was removed because somebody could not abide something on a wall of a public building that they didn't agree with.

Was it's message so terrible such effort had to be expended to make sure it was taken down?
Was it so really offensive and untollerable?

As I posted above in reply to Meat, you can't please all the people all of the time, and if every plaque, statue, building and arch requires a 100% approval rate to be built, we're in for a hell of a wait before any of the above are put up again.

I agree. To be perfectly honest some years ago I think Meat was singled out quite a bit to be poked and prodded, but after the last great debate I think that has changed. I think the moderating team work well to keep that change in place. I also understand Meat probably remembers previous times, and that may not be easy to get past at times. I accept that. And I believe he really knows he is very loved and supported here, and suggestions of bullying are just inflammatory and not in my view supported.

Caryl

You know what. I've had enough of this, and I give up. I keep discussing this issue because it's something I care about, but I guess I have to agree with Meat when he said that "all people want to do is assume and not really read ,study, and understand."

To quote the court's decision:

I'm done with the prayer banner discussion, and the sideshow discussion that we've all seen before. Have at it.

It's not about the banner itself, it's about the larger issue at hand.

Getting that banner taken down is a small victory against the Christian Right in the United States. It's not just Jessica that disagreed with it, it was many people. She was just the face of it. She was one of the only people BRAVE enough to say something. Most people in the US who feel the same way don't have the guts to say anything due to possible loss of employment, family and friends. There's a reason why you have to have organizations such as 'Recovering From Religion.' http://recoveringfromreligion.org/

To be clear I don't hate anyone who is religious, but I hate when it's shoved your face and especially when it's endorsed by a SECULAR government.

There are many other larger battles at play in the US:

- In God We Trust On The Money
- Mention Of God In The Pledge Of Allegiance
- Use of religious imagery in Government Buildings
- Hate Groups like 'American Family Association'
- Teaching of Creationism in Science Classrooms
- Accepting Religious exclsuion when it comes to elections

It relates to the banner issue itself because Christians call stuff like speaking out against religion, The Reason Rally and other things as 'persecution' and 'bullying'.

It is not. It's just not getting their way for once.

Some people would say "What's the big deal?". And I would agree. Why can't you just be a secular country? One that doesn't seek to exclude anyone?